2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Blaise]

A whole two hours? Goodness me.

But "Sound deadening, ride quality, and vibration/harshness is a thing and its an important thing" does not require electronic anything.

It was 18 hours coming back from SWCO this past weekend. Trust me, it was nice being comfortable. Let me guess, that's not a long enough drive to want comfort?

I'm trying really hard not to be overly frustrated, but the point is that we cannot have it all. Each person will want a different level of comfort, electronics, etc. But at the end of the day, JLR MUST MOVE UNITS. The customer expectation for a 2020 model car in the 50k+ range is that you'll have these features. I personally despise the non-removable/updateable dash mounted LCD screens that have been brought in over the last 10 years but I also realize that if you're a new customer, you *MUST* have these features or you can't sell. With the number (nearly zero) of people who actually use these trucks for any amount of off-pavement driving, it's incredible and we should be all jumping up and down with joy that we have ANY options for what we enjoy, much less several (Wrangler, Defender, ZR2 Colorado, Toyotas, etc). A new and exciting contender should be universally praised instead of this constant negativity. You don't have to buy one.

I will still echo the statements from before that I love air suspension. I can't imagine going back to a traditional lifted setup and driving around with a 3" raised CG on the highway. If you haven't tried it, please do before hating on it.

But I won't buy it because it's an expensive pile of electronic stuff that does not belong off road.

OK, I give up. THIS CAR IS NOT YET RELEASED. NOBODY HAS DONE A SINGLE 3RD PARTY REVIEW YET. You're prejudiced PURELY on the fact that you hate the idea of vehicles having air suspension and electronics. Guess what? Vehicles have universally become more capable and more reliable with time. They don't build them like they used to... and that's a good thing. Are you the same guy who fought power windows? How about computer controlled ignitions and fuel injection? Are you still using points and carburetors? Do you 'hate' forced induction, despite the obvious advantages for weight and performance at high elevation?

By your logic, my LR3 shoudln't have spent the last week in SWCO or Utah backcountry because everything would break and it would never survive. Yet at 15 years old with 120k+ miles, it did exactly that. Fine, you won't buy one. Great. We get it. Seriously.

I did characterize it as a "Luxury Defender" for a reason. There is likely too much technology. One area that is of significant concern to me is the reliance on SOTA (Software Over The Air) updates. That is fine except for those areas that don't have cell coverage. For Colorado and the Intermountain West that is spotty. I tell my tourist visitors to take their cell phones and toss them in the rear seat and learn to read a paper map. So if LR is relying on SOTA for addressing significant issues that might disable a vehicle, forget it. In addition you run the risk of bricking your Defender. Need to see many more years and much more details on SOTA before I even consider that a viable 'feature'. Theoretically is sounds good on paper and is likely viable in a urban area.

I wouldn't expect SOTA to be needed for any significant issues that would disable your vehicle. I understand your fear of bricking an ECU but remember, updates are updates - the truck won't be delivered broken and needing an update to run or a 5G connection to stay on road.

 

[DieselRanger]

ok Haha
Look my friend , let’s say State of IDAHO, how many mazarati suvs have they sold ? Vs Toyota 4Runner or even a new ford ranger rugged off road truck?

1 to 3000 ratio,
Do you need more facts ?
your jaguar and Land Rover is in the brink of chapter 11 and you telling us there is a market for luxury suv?
By the way What part of luxury Land Rover is superb off road ?
Mall parking off-road you mean ? Because I haven’t seen not one single new big body Range Rover play off road.

More people live in Denver and Colorado Springs than in the entire state of Idaho. More people live in Los Angeles County than the entire state of Colorado.

So Jaguar Land Rover doesn't care about Idaho specifically, and I'd wager the vast majority of the 1.79 million people in Idaho don't give a flying ******** about JLR, so I suspect the feeling is mutual. Idahoans don't move the needle for any carmaker.

As to luxury SUV sales in the US - in just the first 8 months of 2018, there were 806,000 luxury SUVs sold in the US. Jeep sold about 975,000 Jeeps - all Jeep models - in 2018. You'd think given the choice, if there was no demand for luxury SUVs, nobody would make them. But about one million people bought luxury SUV's in the US, and that's an accelerating trend. But yeah, I suppose there's no market for luxury SUVs in America.

Lured by rising SUV sales, automakers flood market with models

Demand for sport utility vehicles in the United States is booming, but the number of new models vying for a share of that market is growing even faster, threatening the fat profits automakers have enjoyed.

www.reuters.com

"U.S. sales of mainstream and luxury SUVs and crossovers alike have more than doubled since 2010 and rose 5 percent and 7 percent, respectively, last year - even though overall industry sales declined 2 percent in 2017. "

(emphasis mine)

What you need to face is, there aren't millions of people who have access to, or even desire, to take their rigs off-road, even if they buy a Jeep Wrangler or a Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro. There are far more of those on the road than there are Land Rovers, but I'd wager a higher percentage of Land Rovers go offroad than Jeeps and Toyotas do. Hell, I followed a brand-new full-fat Range Rover out over 60 miles of dirt and ruts from the center of Wyoming after the 2017 solar eclipse, in my brand-new Discovery, after driving well off-road to our viewing site. Dude may have been eating caviar on toast, but he was doing it on a magic carpet ride the whole way. You know how many Wranglers I saw? Maybe two. I saw far more F150s and 1500s than I saw Jeeps - the place was lousy with pickups. Saw an Audi and a couple Mercedes SUVs too.

But hey, you live in your world, I'll live in the real one. Where I take my Discovery off-road on the same trails you do. You may never see me in mine, that's fine. Doesn't sound like you're the kind of person who likes to see anyone off-road and immediately judges them when you do.

 

[Blaise]

I'll reiterate what I posted a few minutes ago again just so it's not missed.

Very few people go off road. So few that if it wasn't for people buying these trucks for 'image,' they wouldn't exist. No wrangler, no 4runner, no Defender, nothing.

The fact that there's a new Wrangler made me very happy. It's an option.
The fact that there's a new Defender made me very happy. It's another option!
When the new 4Runner comes out, i'll be happy as well.

Why is everybody so negative? I don't hate on anyone else or their rig. Let's be HAPPY that these trucks are even being released and the general public is helping make it possible. If it wasn't built for them to buy - whether its image or luxury - they wouldn't exist. We are the minority. THE VAST minority.

 

[Thorsten]

Very few people go off road. So few that if it wasn't for people buying these trucks for 'image,' they wouldn't exist. No wrangler, no 4runner, no Defender, nothing.

Why is everybody so negative? I don't hate on anyone else or their rig. Let's be HAPPY that these trucks are even being released and the general public is helping make it possible. If it wasn't built for them to buy - whether its image or luxury - they wouldn't exist. We are the minority. THE VAST minority.

Blaise is right.

I live in Los Angeles. Range Rovers (L405 chassis) are one of the standard issue family vehicle in our area of LA. The high school parking lot of full of them. It seems like every street has at least a few houses with one in the driveway. When I go to Whole Foods or Trader Joe's there's someone's mom parking her Range Rover and carting the kids around. I assume most of these Range Rovers are leased and then discarded when a newer model comes out. I am certain most of them never leave the pavement -- at least not during their lease or initial ownership periods. These are JLR's money makers. These folks are their customers, the ones keeping the lights on. JLR doesn't see much if any money from the 3rd or 4th owner a few years later who maybe will decide to take their vehicle off-road. They care about the folks that are buying or leasing these units NEW (or CPO) off the dealership lots.

At the end of the day these companies are running a businesses. It's GREAT that as a business Jeep is able to evolve the Wrangler in such a way that it fundamentally remains the same type of vehicle with a modern touch. They were able to do it in such a way that turned out to be a hugely successful business decision for them. Perhaps JLR was either unwilling or believed it not fiscally viable to evolve the Defender in the same fashion. The Defender is a niche vehicle for JLR in 2020 and they created it in a way they thought would be appealing to the type of people they have showing up on their dealership lots and writing checks. I still think what they produced is a very interesting vehicle -- is it a Defender is for the market to decide.

 

[Colin Hughes]

Is it just me or is this thread just going around in circles?

 

[catmann]

Well like it or not, there is no going back now, the future is in motion in Slovakia, only time will tell if this is a success or not. When I first saw an Evoque I would surely have thought it would be a flop, so I am not even going to guess how many of these will sell. At least I have interest in going to see it and and drive it, when I went to see the D5 I did not even bother to drive one as the wife exclaimed NO WAY before she even looked inside.

 

[DieselRanger]

Well like it or not, there is no going back now, the future is in motion in Slovakia, only time will tell if this is a success or not. When I first saw an Evoque I would surely have thought it would be a flop, so I am not even going to guess how many of these will sell. At least I have interest in going to see it and and drive it, when I went to see the D5 I did not even bother to drive one as it was just not working for me...

Nice! Looks like on the rear side glass there's actually a structural member there and what looks like an airbag module back there, so that would be why you can't delete the panel on the 110.

I got to drive a pre-production Discovery press car at my dealer on their way back from Moab doing press first drives and dealer training - hoping they bring a Defender through in a couple months. Would love to drive one. I do love my D5 Td6, so it will take some compelling low-range performance for me to want to trade my Disco for a MHEV twin-charged gasser, even if it is an inline 6.

But, the EPA may revoke CARB's exemption from enforcing stricter emissions, so there may be a short window of a few years where JLR could make a decision to bring a sweet 6cyl diesel....

 

[alexcivick]

I think it's funny how people crap on the new Defender and also say if it was the new Discovery they'd be ok with it but also say the D5 sucks too. Every new model we go through the same predictable evolution... Land Rover ruined it, the brand is dead, they cater to soccer moms, I'll buy one in 10 years, turns out this thing is capable and I'm gonna defend it against haters.....

I have noticed that most critics of the D5 have never actually driven one off-road. They are freakin great. Better than an LR3. So great they are boring the computer takes the fun out of it. Overall the whole D5 is boring but def great at what it's designed to do. Watch the Trek 2020 and see....That should move the critics unto the next evolution step....

 

[Blaise]

I have noticed that most critics of the D5 have never actually driven one off-road. They are freakin great. Better than an LR3. So great they are boring the computer takes the fun out of it. Overall the whole D5 is boring but def great at what it's designed to do. Watch the Trek 2020 and see....That should move the critics unto the next evolution step....

I haven't driven an D5 on or off road. It's better than the LR3/4? My primary worry is the wheel size but would love to know why its better!

 

[alexcivick]

I haven't driven a D5 on or off-road. It's better than the LR3/4? My primary worry is the wheel size but would love to know why it is better!

It's an all-around advancement from the previous generation D3/D4. Comfort, quality, and ergonomics all improved. It's more like a car than an LR4 so it drives "better" although it's no Nuremberg worthy ride. Technology is better which is most notable off-road the computer does all the work it really does take some of the fun out of it but at the same time, you feel impressed by the capability. Last week a buddy took his LR4 and MKIII to an offroad park to scout trails for an upcoming event and a D5 tagged along from the Dealer (One of the Trek 2020 drivers wanted to get some drive time in before the event trials). All the trucks performed great but there was an obvious difference. The LR4 and Range Rover would attempt an obstacle, lose traction for a second or two, and then the traction control would kick in and take over and guide the trucks through. Seemingly effortless. Until the D5 made the same attempt...It would just drive up and over. No hesitation, no struggle, literally effortless. Did it lose traction? Did the computer need to take control? Yes! but you don't even notice because it's that much more efficient and capable. Again, it's impressive but kind of takes the fun out of it. But it def feels better. Is a D5 better than an LR3/LR4? yes. Is it a better Land Rover than an LR3/LR4? that's where feelings and nostalgia come in and most people say no. Same thing with the Defender.

Trek events are no Camel Trophy but watch what the D5s can do in this 2020 revival. I think it will convert some haters.

 

[Blaise]

Yes, I follow that the TC system is better, but is it better from a breakover/articulation/etc aspect? I can't find suspension travel numbers for the D5.

Lucky for my my LR3 has the rear locker so the TC rarely has to do any work.

Again my biggest concern are the 20" wheels. I have some rim damage and I run 18s.

 

[DieselRanger]

I haven't driven an D5 on or off road. It's better than the LR3/4? My primary worry is the wheel size but would love to know why its better!

I've had one drive in an LR4 on-road - my dealer had one in that powder-blue color they couldn't give away after the D5 came out and I wanted to give it a try to compare. the LR4 with the Si6 handled like a pregnant cow, the D5 is much more nimble in comparison and felt maybe a little quicker even with the diesel compared to the LR4 with the Si6. I love the D5 off-road, especially with the Td6. Being 800lbs lighter has advantages - the center of mass is lower so it's more stable too. Compared to my old Touareg TDI there's way more room, and there's storage everywhere, but have heard some complain the rear of the D5 has slightly less cargo space than the LR4. Body panels are aluminum, so rust should never be a problem. The best thing is you can get the 3.0 Td6 diesel in the D5. Ford engine, same one as in the new F150 PowerStroke minus Ford's mods for heavier towing, but you can still tow 7,700+ lbs in the D5.

I put 275/55-20 Cooper Discoverer AT3's on the D5 (32" diameter) and it's been bomb-proof off-road and still handles well on-road - I run them at around 34 psi off-road F&R - I could probably go lower but I'd like more sidewall. I still want some 18" wheels with some 275/65-18's - the 2017 Td6 does accept the 18" Compomotives that fit on the LR4 - a guy on another forum runs them. Goodyear now makes the DuraTrac for Land Rover and offers them commercially in the OEM 255/55-20 as well as 275/55-20, so those may be my next tire for daily use. Rumor has it that's the AT option on the 110X, but most pictures show the Wrangler All Terrain Adventure with Kevlar as the AT tire on non-X Defenders. Still a good tire for off-road use and not uncomfortable or sloppy if you're daily driving it - I ran those on my Touareg in New Mexico over caliche and sand and they were great.

EDIT: wading depth is 900mm / 35.4" with air suspension, same as the Defender - the Discovery has a built-in mini-snorkel that routes the intake charge through a special tube in the hood. 34/27.5/30 approach/breakover/departure with air suspension at Off-Road Height 2. You get another 1.8" or so in Super Extended mode so those numbers go up just a little - the Defender will still have better numbers.

EDIT to EDIT: You can get a rear locker but then you have to get the 7-seat configuration, and then I believe you lose the full-sized spare. I didn't want the weight of 7 seats and didn't need more than 5 - with the low range gearbox and TR2 it's never let me down.

 

[voodoojk]

It appears that all defenders will be EAS in NA.

 

[Blaise]

That's because it's standard on the 110 and the 90 isn't coming for the '20 MY.

 

[Twistnshout]

I dont know a thing about air suspension, but negatives about them are a recurring theme. Also when used you lose suspension travel evidently, and I have seen pics of this new car with wheels up on some very insignificant terrain. No solid axle in the rear either, I just cringe.


His comments echo mine and probaby many about making your rig YOURS. Jeep, the old defenders, Troopys, others, have that. This new one appears more car like and able as able to be personalized as much as my wifes camry. lol.

Again I want to be wrong here, but these are my initial impressions.