2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Twistnshout]

We can discuss objectively negative things about any vehicle, LR or not! I can hate as well as anyone, I just think it's important not to trash any of the capable 4x4 options on the market as more choice is always a good thing.

But saying that you think the air suspension is bad despite not knowing anything about it is just a random statement, kinda like calling my gf fat without seeing her

Dont you have to be in your 20's to use hate to describe an opinion that goes against yours? lol

As I have said I dont know a thing about air suspension, just what the pattern is that I have read with them. I am open to being wrong (or them being wrong) and forums are where things get yapped about without body snatcher finger pointing. Hope I (they) am wrong and its the best thing ever.

I have said quite a bit good about the new vehicle yet you seem to gravitate only to the what I perceive as bad. No vehicle is perfect, I could go on quite a bit about my own vehicles. They work well but they arent perfect and I wont get bent if someone says so.

 

[JeepColorado]

I guess I'm at a loss for why the LR loyalists on here are so surprised that there is a considerable amount of skepticism of this vehicle and frankly a lack of trust in the LR brand overall.

LR is supposed to be one of the keeper's of the flame if you will- a no compromise off-roader in a world of vanilla cross-over boredom. Yet, time and time again over the last several years they've shown an unrelenting desire to use that reputation as a marketing tool and nothing more- they definitely haven't shown a willingness to be committed to producing anything worthy of their previous legendary status.

LR Loyalist- "But, But, they need to make $" Sure they do- they are a for-profit company. So is every other car maker in the world- and most of them like LR have chosen the path of least resistance- building the same boring luxury condo's on wheels- but there's been a few that have refused to leave the 4x4 world behind.

LR has earned every ounce of uncertainty it receives from off-road enthusiast- every doubtful look when people consider reliability, every skeptical glance when they wonder about durability, every image that is conjured in a potential buyer's mind of being stuck in the middle of the woods when LR's historically unshakeable gremlins resurface has been completely and entirely earned by LR.

So yes, I'm excited to see a new product- it's great to see the 4x4 world expand- I just hope it really is "new"- I hope it really is the spiritual successor, I hope LR finally has built an off-roader worthy of what their name used to mean- I hope it is more than just a status symbol that never sees so much as a gravel road on a rainy day. .....that really would be "new" ...for LR.

 

[Pilat]

Yeah, "uncertainty" and "criticism" such as "incandescent bulbs are better than LEDs", "electronic traction control is bad, mkay", "Airbags are bad", and "The old one is better looking especially with stickers".
That's not "uncertainty" that is simply revealing that the people who are saying those things are trying to live in the past.
Of course, reliability of the thing is still up as big question, but at least LEDs are usually more resistant to water and the ECUs is supposedly water resistant in this new model.
We will see about that last part, but if it truly is made to IPX7 standards, chances are that it will be way more reliable than the old leaking Defender.

Of course it won't be as adaptable for people who prefer to wield a welder to make into a rock crawler with 40" tyres on, but those people who are willing to sacrifice everything else for a slightly better extreme rock crawling performance will still be able to find old defenders for that. Or they can buy a Wrangler that is a great fit for that type of thing (i.e. it can easily be built into a no-compromise full-on rock crawler).

 

[Twistnshout]

I've had corners in the air many times and never suffered for lack of traction or responsive forward motion on demand. Two wheels is enough to keep going with Land Rover's systems. In snow/ice, mud, or sand, one is enough.

Those who say you need solid axles front and rear, and lockers front, center, and rear with feet of articulation to have positive traction are correct only for ancient fully mechanical 4x4s. But it seems to me I see many stories of those broken down on the trail and drivers bragging about having to hand-cut splines or send someone out to bring back a new knuckle or tie rod or some such, fairly regularly. That may be fun and challenging to them, but that's not what I want to do with my time on the trail.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

It is always more desirable to have tires on the ground, if for safety reasons if no other.....up to a point haha. The better the articulation the better, anything else is just excuses. Now if you dont run that much tech where a wheel up here or there it isnt much of a concern. For overlanding it probably isnt for 99% of the time. That's where this car will shine with its sweet motor choices, payload and pretty descent off road numbers.

Dana 44 or larger solid axles are stronger than IFS unless LR came up with a unicorn model. That would be great if it did. Todays solid axles have probably the best hill descent computer driven help along with traction control around. I turn them off since they are quite annoying and I have lockers. And never broke down ever on the trail even with a weak dana 30 up front.

It really is a shame Defender went with independent suspension vs the solids they use to have. Guys who really want to use their rigs for tech have to be disappointed. Grant they wont ever ride or handle as well with solids but they arent that bad. I am absolutely amazed at the ride and handling of my 18 Rubicon.

 

[Pilat]

Independant suspension is better at keeping the wheels on the ground at any speed above rock crawling speeds (no, I'm not talking about 20" of travel type of thing, but on bumps and ruts and so on). "Handling" to me is not about rock crawling, but about handling while actually driving. There, independent suspension wins as it is better at keeping the wheels on the surface. Rutty roads, bumps on roads - especially in a turn at speed and so on.
However, it is obvious that LR didn't make this to be an extreme rock crawler. But extreme rock crawlers are really not that great for anything else.

 

[Twistnshout]

I guess I'm at a loss for why the LR loyalists on here are so surprised that there is a considerable amount of skepticism of this vehicle and frankly a lack of trust in the LR brand overall.

LR is supposed to be one of the keeper's of the flame if you will- a no compromise off-roader in a world of vanilla cross-over boredom. Yet, time and time again over the last several years they've shown an unrelenting desire to use that reputation as a marketing tool and nothing more- they definitely haven't shown a willingness to be committed to producing anything worthy of their previous legendary status.

LR Loyalist- "But, But, they need to make $" Sure they do- they are a for-profit company. So is every other car maker in the world- and most of them like LR have chosen the path of least resistance- building the same boring luxury condo's on wheels- but there's been a few that have refused to leave the 4x4 world behind.

LR has earned every ounce of uncertainty it receives from off-road enthusiast- every doubtful look when people consider reliability, every skeptical glance when they wonder about durability, every image that is conjured in a potential buyer's mind of being stuck in the middle of the woods when LR's historically unshakeable gremlins resurface has been completely and entirely earned by LR.

So yes, I'm excited to see a new product- it's great to see the 4x4 world expand- I just hope it really is "new"- I hope it really is the spiritual successor, I hope LR finally has built an off-roader worthy of what their name used to mean- I hope it is more than just a status symbol that never sees so much as a gravel road on a rainy day. .....that really would be "new" ...for LR.

Yup, when you consider the roots of LR being that of a jeep like vehicle this new rig SEEMS to be a departure. It's only natural for the REAL off road enthusiast to have a raised Spock eyebrow.

I for one hope it is all I think it is and all I think it's not. I'm not brand loyal and it would be GREAT to see other rigs on the trail then a sea of jeeps.

 

[JeepColorado]

I think another aspect of this that's missing is the pure joy of driving a more mechanically true vehicle- body on frame, solid axles, mechanical lockers etc...

I was traveling recently and ended up with a 2020 Rubicon with the 2.0L Turbo as a rental vehicle. I can't tell you how much fun it was to drive that thing- it's a tad "rougher" than say the D5 no doubt on the road, but so much more fun. You feel connected, not removed, you feel a part of the road, not numbed to it. I enjoy the feel of a truck-like ride, even if it's a touch more harsh. I enjoy riding motorcycles, I put my windows down when I drive because I like feeling the air- I like a more visceral and engaged experience.

Really hard to beat the feel of taking off the roof and the doors of a vehicle -it's much more fun than being cocooned in an aluminum sound-deadened coffin, even if you do lose a little on-road comfort.

 

[Twistnshout]

Independant suspension is better at keeping the wheels on the ground at any speed above rock crawling speeds (no, I'm not talking about 20" of travel type of thing, but on bumps and ruts and so on). "Handling" to me is not about rock crawling, but about handling while actually driving. There, independent suspension wins as it is better at keeping the wheels on the surface. Rutty roads, bumps on roads - especially in a turn at speed and so on.
However, it is obvious that LR didn't make this to be an extreme rock crawler. But extreme rock crawlers are really not that great for anything else.

Not when articulation is needed, they typically suck there. The defenders roots come directly from jeep so I would hope it would be remain comparable. It APPEARS not.
Your definition of handling is the same as mine. A solid axle just wont be as good, but again they (solid axle) are nothing to sneeze at. Unless one is using their rigs as high speed race cars, not really needed. Much of their comeout video footage does show them kicking but on forest roads so maybe that is their intended use now vs it's roots in a jeep like setting.

 

[DieselRanger]

When you done kissing and hugging each other over the new Land Rover,
just think and ask yourself is this vehicle on top of the picture worth to have a name defender?
View attachment 540245

Absolutely.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[Twistnshout]

I think another aspect of this that's missing is the pure joy of driving a more mechanically true vehicle- body on frame, solid axles, mechanical lockers etc...

I was traveling recently and ended up with a 2020 Rubicon with the 2.0L Turbo as a rental vehicle. I can't tell you how much fun it was to drive that thing- it's a tad "rougher" than say the D5 no doubt on the road, but so much more fun. You feel connected, not removed, you feel a part of the road, not numbed to it. I enjoy the feel of a truck-like ride, even if it's a touch more harsh. I enjoy riding motorcycles, I put my windows down when I drive because I like feeling the air- I like a more visceral and engaged experience.

Really hard to beat the feel of taking off the roof and the doors of a vehicle -it's much more fun than being cocooned in an aluminum sound-deadened coffin, even if you do lose a little on-road comfort.

The old defender setup seemed to be pretty good, just needed a power plant (was their v8 reliable?) and some more modern accommodations in the cockpit.

Any yeah they did the jeep right. I have the 3.6 8 speed auto and it is an absolute hoot to drive. I could have done without some of the foofy stuff but even that I find handy now. Jeep did it right, they kept true to their roots. It performs amazing on road and blows away my old well built TJ offroad. I just wish they did what LR did with the defender and increased payload and towing capability..oh and break over angle. Jeep blew it there.

 

[JeepColorado]

Independent suspension is better at keeping the wheels on the ground at any speed above rock crawling speeds (no, I'm not talking about 20" of travel type of thing, but on bumps and ruts and so on). "Handling" to me is not about rock crawling, but about handling while actually driving. There, independent suspension wins as it is better at keeping the wheels on the surface. Rutty roads, bumps on roads - especially in a turn at speed and so on.
However, it is obvious that LR didn't make this to be an extreme rock crawler. But extreme rock crawlers are really not that great for anything else.

I completely disagree- solid axles are generally recognized in the off-road world as better at articulation and keeping a tire on the ground than IFS. Take a look at any modern LR going through undulating terrain- they keep tires in the air, because they can't articulate.

This is about as much articulation your standard Honda CRV


Not only is this vehicle less safe in this situation than a Rubicon with the sway bar disconnected, when it does eventually fall back down to earth (literally) the impact makes damage and wear much more likely.

I would hardly call this extreme rock crawling- this is a fairly routine obstacle and you barely have 2.5 tires on the ground and a vehicle that is tilted so far to the side that the passenger is having to hang on to the A-Pillar.

 

[DieselRanger]

Haha safer ? Where in the mall parking lot? Because for sure I prefer the older defender when I am in the middle of nowhere,
Better? In what way ??
More capable? How

For all the reasons and in all the ways articulated numerous times already. You disagree, we get it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[DieselRanger]

Not when articulation is needed, they typically suck there. The defenders roots come directly from jeep so I would hope it would be remain comparable. It APPEARS not.
Your definition of handling is the same as mine. A solid axle just wont be as good, but again they (solid axle) are nothing to sneeze at. Unless one is using their rigs as high speed race cars, not really needed. Much of their comeout video footage does show them kicking but on forest roads so maybe that is their intended use now vs it's roots in a jeep like setting.

Again, articulation is only needs to keep all four tires on the ground.

With the aid of modern traction control systems, you only need two wheels on the ground in low speed situations to maintain forward momentum and control.

And so articulation is less important. King of Hammers winning rigs prove this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[DieselRanger]

Not only is this vehicle less safe in this situation than a Rubicon with the sway bar disconnected, when it does eventually fall back down to earth (literally) the impact makes damage and wear much more likely.

Bullsh*t. At crawling speeds it's like stepping off a stair. Do you break your legs when you step off a stair?? What utter nonsense.

The structure in the Discovery is stiff enough that you can have two wheels in the air, and open all four doors...and then close them again. The Defender is 3x stiffer than any ladder frame vehicle. Do this in a ladder frame vehicle enough, no matter the amount of articulation, and pretty son you'll be driving down the road sideways.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[JeepColorado]

Bullsh*t. At crawling speeds it's like stepping off a stair. Do you break your legs when you step off a stair?? What utter nonsense.

The structure in the Discovery is stiff enough that you can have two wheels in the air, and open all four doors...and then close them again. The Defender is 3x stiffer than any ladder frame vehicle. Do this in a ladder frame vehicle enough, no matter the amount of articulation, and pretty son you'll be driving down the road sideways.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

I agree that through brake modulation you can step off the stair so to speak gently, but in a vehicle with articulation you don't have to as much. Can traction control keep this vehicle moving forward with a tire or 2 in the air....yes.....is having 2 or 3 wheels on the ground more stable than having 4..no.

The fact that traction control can keep a vehicle moving forward doesn't change basic physics that having more points of contact will always be safer, will always provide more traction and not just "enough" to keep the vehicle moving forward.