All Terrain Warriors campers
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outbackjack
Observer
Coils look good, but not sure if its worth the 18k+ AUD though
whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
H Chocko, Yeah, virtually everything is hand made. If you were doing this for a F250, or a Nissan Patrol you could just walk in to a custom 4x4 shop and buy everything over the counter. Because it's a 6 ton Fuso nothing was heavy enough.
All the rod eyes are machined from billet and then the urethane bushes were specially cast to fit, obviously the coils were designed from scratch, same with the shocks and they are simply a work of art. As for the chrome-moly tube in the size we needed , well you can't even buy it in the country so we had to fly the first batch in from the States. All stainless braided brake lines, throw in a couple of months of CAD and now we are adding nitrogen/hydraulic bumpstops we've sourced from the USA.......bla, bla. Don't even mention labour at this point till we've got a few more under our belt.....
Is it worth it? The guy who owns the truck in these pics travels on a really bad dirt road down to the Brisbane markets each day. He says he does the trip 20 minutes quicker in the Fuso than in his 100 Series Cruiser. Not that it's supposed to be a race truck but it is just that much better at riding over the bumps. I'm only using this as a scale but the ride over outback corrugations is important for a camper here in OZ and that will be exceptional, so yes, he is 100% happy. As for offroad ability, not everyone wants their camper to be a rock crawler either but having all that smooth travel at hand will keep the wheels firmly on the ground and therefore really reduces the need for diff locks. You just can't lift a wheel. How much would diff locks cost for a FG if you could buy them?
So again is it worth it? Doesn't that depend on what your needs are. If you don't need the truck to be like this, then there are plenty of lesser options that will still be a vast improvement over standard, heh?
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Yes. There are two different questions. Is the price fair? Is it worth it? Seems fair to me given the labor and materials. Whether it is worth it depends on lots of factors. I'm a pretty frugal guy at the lower end of the middle class so normally I'd say it's not worth it. But after that day of horrendous road a few weeks back, my opinion would have been different for about 48 hrs.
As to the owner in question, 20 minutes quicker could easily be worth it if the total driving time was an hour to begin with. If it was a 6 hour journey, perhaps not.
As to the owner in question, 20 minutes quicker could easily be worth it if the total driving time was an hour to begin with. If it was a 6 hour journey, perhaps not.
Very cool mechanical device which played an important role in industrial design, invented by James Watt to whom us motorheads owe some homage :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt's_linkage
outbackjack
Observer
I understand the effort etc that is required to this stage with coils etc.
However after the R&D, one off buys etc. The scales of economy would mean better buy price for components etc.
Will the price come down? I think not.
Dont get me wrong I think it is a great product, however I still think its over priced.
If the price was around the 10k mark, then you would have people knocking down your door.
Special parts could be made with good quality in several asian countries for a small cost.
However after the R&D, one off buys etc. The scales of economy would mean better buy price for components etc.
Will the price come down? I think not.
Dont get me wrong I think it is a great product, however I still think its over priced.
If the price was around the 10k mark, then you would have people knocking down your door.
Special parts could be made with good quality in several asian countries for a small cost.
outbackjack
Observer
I hear you.
I am not against the coils for the canter or ATW
Mass produced supsensions for a Landcruiser/Patrol will be around 1200 odd dollars. This is for new coils and shocks fitted.
ATW qoute around 8k for new springs fitted and 18k for the coils
SRW are another 8k
So if you wanted the works from ATW, it would be a 26k job. Not sure about others, but thats a lot of coin in my world
Other companies qoute around 2500 to 3k for springs which are just as good as ATW
I am not against ATW, they make some great products.
All I am saying is that their prices are high and if they lowered them a little they might even get a little more work.....
If youre paying 50k odd for a second hand truck and then its going to cost you around the 26k, before any other mods. You may just about get into OKA territory dollar wise.
I am not against the coils for the canter or ATW
Mass produced supsensions for a Landcruiser/Patrol will be around 1200 odd dollars. This is for new coils and shocks fitted.
ATW qoute around 8k for new springs fitted and 18k for the coils
SRW are another 8k
So if you wanted the works from ATW, it would be a 26k job. Not sure about others, but thats a lot of coin in my world
Other companies qoute around 2500 to 3k for springs which are just as good as ATW
I am not against ATW, they make some great products.
All I am saying is that their prices are high and if they lowered them a little they might even get a little more work.....
If youre paying 50k odd for a second hand truck and then its going to cost you around the 26k, before any other mods. You may just about get into OKA territory dollar wise.
engineer
Adventurer
OBJack, it is a commercial vehicle, and to get second manufacturers certification is alot more difficult than some conversion plate, I can see the value in what they are doing and it is certainly an insurable product with regard to commercial operation and PL.
OKA are OK, but they don't even have a dealer in my part of the world and one guy up here has been waiting since forever for his to arrive, I don't know why he stays devoted to a brand that treats him like dog poo.
Anyway, I can see your point of view in regard to conversion dollars, and there are certainly some cheaper options out there.
If you can get springs fitted for 2500-3k, give up the number!!!
OKA are OK, but they don't even have a dealer in my part of the world and one guy up here has been waiting since forever for his to arrive, I don't know why he stays devoted to a brand that treats him like dog poo.
Anyway, I can see your point of view in regard to conversion dollars, and there are certainly some cheaper options out there.
If you can get springs fitted for 2500-3k, give up the number!!!
outbackjack
Observer
I want to make it clear, I am not against ATW in anyway and think they make good products. I am just being open minded and looking at what options there are.
Point taken about the OKA, I have always been hot and cold on them.
If you modified the Canter with the ATW suspension and if you where somewhere other than SE QLD, you may run into problems if you need spares in a hurry. As the suspension is not standard.
The Ultimate Suspension mob, do modify the rear springs for around 400 per corner, front around 400 per corner with new springs and about 50mm lift.
Shocks around 160 and are rebuildable
Point taken about the OKA, I have always been hot and cold on them.
If you modified the Canter with the ATW suspension and if you where somewhere other than SE QLD, you may run into problems if you need spares in a hurry. As the suspension is not standard.
The Ultimate Suspension mob, do modify the rear springs for around 400 per corner, front around 400 per corner with new springs and about 50mm lift.
Shocks around 160 and are rebuildable
63tlf8
Observer
I don't own a Canter and I'm not a customer of ATW so maybe that disqualifies me from comment! In the end every product is the sum of its components and good design includes choosing those components wisely and INTEGRATION into a harmonious package.
So, for ATW, all the hours on CAD, the time at the track and the mass of equipment has to be paid for. You can get springs anywhere but how many have been tested to the satisfaction of the Transport Department. I don't hear anyone out there offering to work in the commercial world for nothing, which is essentially what is being asked if the product costs more than what you want to pay.
The flip side, You can't make a UNIMOG out of a Canter. The Double Dutch couple in South Africa aren't having the run they expected with some mechanical difficulties. I have no basis to suggest that they are influenced by the modifications but the outcome is a highly bespoke and expensive new truck in a country where the base vehicle warranty is not honored and the custom bits for the camper body aren't available in country.
The Canter as delivered is suitable for its intended market. The drive train articulation matches the suspension travel etc. The ATW suspension package is, I'm sure, as good as you will get. As we move to the extremes in suspension packages, the integration with the standard drive train becomes tenuous and so the secret is knowing when to stop.
Personally, I'd line up at ATW for their earlier Canter suspension packages as I consider them solid and effective improvements to the base design. If I really needed that:Wow1: much more than that (and long distance expedition type reliability) I'd put that 25 odd K into a chassis that came with that level of suspension integrated into the design. Whilst ATW could probably turn out a completely bespoke vehicle in time, they will never have the customer base to amortize the millions in development costs spent by the major players.
Tony
whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Wow. Lots of action going on here. I'm certainly not going to go on about defending ATW's prices on the forum. It's not my place.
So all I'll say is we are always trying to cut labor costs wherever we can. Somehow we managed to cut more than 60 hours labor off the last one and we hope to keep cutting the labor cost down in big chunks until we break even. We just finished another coil conversion this week on a MWB Canter and we've got our engineer working hard on the new parabolic spring designs to send overseas. (No one in the Southern hemisphere can make them for us). One plan is to drop the old long span spring conversion due to the high labor content involved moving all the cross members, etc and probably the standard length highset springs that we use on the beach buses and only offer the parabolics as a simple and lower cost bolt-in kit. Front only or all round.
AND the coils as the ultimate setup for a Canter.
BTW the shocks are a big part of all our suspension setups which no one really mentioned above. I can't even begin to express how well they work compared to everything else on the market that we tried. Even 2 of the previous best shocks we could buy (much, much more than $160 BTW) on each corner don't come close.
BTW2 Tony, I couldn't agree more with you on the Unimog wannabe comment. There is only so far you can take a Canter before you ask yourself about whether or not you need to look at a different truck. For this very reason, we have a huge direction change for us planned this summer. I'll post an announcement about it in a month or so.
In the Canters favor though is that they have very little to compete with in that GVM class. One of our customers does really heavy duty outback tours. He used to run a fleet of those .......'s and said that they would spend 4 days putting them back together after each trip. He has completely changed over to Canters and now says after each trip , they spend 4 hours walking around them looking for something to do. His words , not mine, but you get the idea. Sure they aren't ideal but they're much tougher than many realize.
So all I'll say is we are always trying to cut labor costs wherever we can. Somehow we managed to cut more than 60 hours labor off the last one and we hope to keep cutting the labor cost down in big chunks until we break even. We just finished another coil conversion this week on a MWB Canter and we've got our engineer working hard on the new parabolic spring designs to send overseas. (No one in the Southern hemisphere can make them for us). One plan is to drop the old long span spring conversion due to the high labor content involved moving all the cross members, etc and probably the standard length highset springs that we use on the beach buses and only offer the parabolics as a simple and lower cost bolt-in kit. Front only or all round.
AND the coils as the ultimate setup for a Canter.
BTW the shocks are a big part of all our suspension setups which no one really mentioned above. I can't even begin to express how well they work compared to everything else on the market that we tried. Even 2 of the previous best shocks we could buy (much, much more than $160 BTW) on each corner don't come close.
BTW2 Tony, I couldn't agree more with you on the Unimog wannabe comment. There is only so far you can take a Canter before you ask yourself about whether or not you need to look at a different truck. For this very reason, we have a huge direction change for us planned this summer. I'll post an announcement about it in a month or so.
In the Canters favor though is that they have very little to compete with in that GVM class. One of our customers does really heavy duty outback tours. He used to run a fleet of those .......'s and said that they would spend 4 days putting them back together after each trip. He has completely changed over to Canters and now says after each trip , they spend 4 hours walking around them looking for something to do. His words , not mine, but you get the idea. Sure they aren't ideal but they're much tougher than many realize.
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whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Hi Allan, How are you mate?
Fuso are being EXTREMELY helpful I believe. So are the guys who supplied the other rooflifters. They are an International company and have promised to look after him no matter where he is on the planet. Their tech support guy was on the phone to an auto leccy in South Africa on and off till midnight recently in his own time at home. Unfortunately the builder of the camper module did not design the roof to suit these so it was a retrofit but it was still much better than any of the alternatives.
There is a couple of other issues with some equipment and unfortunately everything was rushed before shipping and could have been better trialled before such an epic adventure. I believe some of the issues were to do with the way some of the gear was installed but the manufacturers are behind him all the way regardless.
BTW, Robert is one of the most experienced and gutsiest offroaders you will ever meet (and certainly one of the most travelled in OZ) but he will be the first to admit he has the mechanical skills of a lemur. It is however his first proper truck so there maybe a little adjusting to do but I'm sure he's on top of it.
Fuso are being EXTREMELY helpful I believe. So are the guys who supplied the other rooflifters. They are an International company and have promised to look after him no matter where he is on the planet. Their tech support guy was on the phone to an auto leccy in South Africa on and off till midnight recently in his own time at home. Unfortunately the builder of the camper module did not design the roof to suit these so it was a retrofit but it was still much better than any of the alternatives.
There is a couple of other issues with some equipment and unfortunately everything was rushed before shipping and could have been better trialled before such an epic adventure. I believe some of the issues were to do with the way some of the gear was installed but the manufacturers are behind him all the way regardless.
BTW, Robert is one of the most experienced and gutsiest offroaders you will ever meet (and certainly one of the most travelled in OZ) but he will be the first to admit he has the mechanical skills of a lemur. It is however his first proper truck so there maybe a little adjusting to do but I'm sure he's on top of it.
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