ARB Locker Wiring & Plumbing

[Rexsname]

It almost sounds as if you two are angry with each other. I doubt that is the case. Its OK to have a difference of opinion and I think most of us here on ExPo understand that this is just talk. I'm no moderator but hasn't this one been just about talked to death??

REX

 

[Redline]

Yep, you're right Rexsname... all that is left is for me to get my finished rig back from the shop, and start using the lockers and airing up my 255s to see how it works and lasts

Red__________

It almost sounds as if you two are angry with each other. I doubt that is the case. Its OK to have a difference of opinion and I think most of us here on ExPo understand that this is just talk. I'm no moderator but hasn't this one been just about talked to death??

REX

 

[madizell]

It almost sounds as if you two are angry with each other...

I would almost agree with you, but frankly I didn't even read the last rejoinder, so I will have to take your word for it.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

It almost sounds as if you two are angry with each other. I doubt that is the case. Its OK to have a difference of opinion and I think most of us here on ExPo understand that this is just talk. I'm no moderator but hasn't this one been just about talked to death??

REX

Nobody angry here, read the last line of my last reply, I meant it sincerely. I consider this nothing more than harmless chat, hope it hasn't been considered otherwise... opinions are just that :friday:

 

[michaelgroves]

ExPo enjoys an unusually high quality of debate, and mainly reflects the fact that most of the regularly contributing members have a wealth of of experience and technical know-how, and a willingness to change their minds in the face of new evidence or argument.

The last few posts on this thread have contained some aspects that are matters of fact, rather than opinion, and I think it would be a loss to the ExPo board if facts are treated in the same laissez-faire, "each-to-their-own", manner as opinions. "Facts" are of course still fair game for debate, but one can then understand that the arguments can (and should) be more forceful. All within the spirit of the board, of course - which I think we all agree is about both sharing what we know, and learning what others know. Hopefully we all come out knowing what the facts are, and understanding the alternative opinions.

Personally, I don't think any of the parties overstepped the mark in this debate, though I do think it's a pity when one of the active participants is proud not to have even read another's submission! This forum is our equivalent of sitting round a campfire and having a beer or two!

 

[Redline]

Compressor cycling/leaks?

I'm having some compressor cycling when the lockers are on.

The compressor was cycling briefly every couple minutes this past week when camping even if the lockers were not on/engaged. After returning home I starting digging into the problem.

To save time and become more familiar with the ARB stuff (that I didn't install) I diagnosed a couple leaking fittings on the compressor to the pressure switch/air-up port and solenoids. I resealed them with thread tape/paste and they seem much better if not perfect.

Testing the compressor only tonight I left it on (no lockers) it went 9 minutes before running briefly then another 27-min. without a burp. Seems pretty good?

With the compressor and rear locker ON it went 5-min without running again, then 7-min.


Both Rear & Front locked the compressor seems to cycle briefly every 2.5 minutes. Then I went back to rear locker only: 4 min then 3 min. 40 sec. before a brief cycle of the compressor.

I have used lots used lots of soap & water spray to find the more obvious leaks. It it possible that the lockers are leaking inside the diffs but maybe there are much smaller external leaks I have not found. Is the brief compressor cycling common? Acceptable?

I'm usually very particular and want things as close to perfect as reasonably possible. But I also don't want to have unrealistic expectations if a brief locker pump cycle is not a big deal.

 

[Redline]

Air Up Times

Using the ARB compressor discussed here I aired-up all 6 tires once this past week on a camping trip.

6-tires, all 255/85R16
4-Maxxis Bighorn
2-Cooper ST (on Chaser)

Fronts from 16 to 30
Rears from 22 to 30
Trailer 15 to 25

13-minutes, Seemed to work okay. The second time I filled my aired-down tires I used both the ARB and MV-50 compressor. It didn't seem to save any time as I was juggling two compressors but I did take the rear tires higher to 36-psi.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm having some compressor cycling when the lockers are on...

Some cut and pastes from similar threads I've responded too, hope this sheds some light.

Compressor Cycling: My "bottom line" is 5 minutes. If they cycle sooner than that you have an appreciable leak. Why 5 minutes? Well I honestly pulled that out of my head... based on my experience with the hundreds of ARB setups I've sold and installed, some might feel comfortable with a bit more or less time, but I wouldn't send anything out the door or using something on my vehicle that had a lower bottom line. I usually only have my Air Lockers on when needed, sometimes 30 seconds or less... however there are times I leave them on for hours on end while tooling around in the snow or sand, last thing you want is a compressor running all the time, potentially damaging itself. If you are nearing the bottom line for compressor cycling, first check & tighten all of your airline fittings. As the system does not hold much volume, even a very small leak can be enough to cause the pressure switch to instigate a cycling of the compressor, make sense?

Near or below the bottom line and have checked and re-checked your fitting using soapy water or similar medium? Perform a leak-down test on your actual differential, from the bulkhead fitting to the seal housing inside the axle. Doing so will require you to either find a shop with the specialty tools, or to build a test apparatus. Ours allows us to charge the differential to a variable pressure (using the pressure regulator on the compressor). We then block off the input air source (ball valve) and disconnect. Our apparatus has a pressure gauge between the bulkhead fitting and the ball valve, thus allowing us to see how much pressure the locker system is retaining. We will actually charge the system to 100psi (slightly higher than the standard operating pressure) and allow it to sit for at least 10 minutes, periodically spinning the differential to make sure the pressure doesn't spike (indicating a bad seal to cylinder cap interface). Assuming less than 5 psi is lost over the 10 minutes, we call it good to go and either ship or install into the vehicle. In most cases, the locker will lose 0psi, even when sitting for 20 or more minutes. However, I have had customers bring vehicles to us for locker failure analysis, we've seem them losing air rapidly, going from 100psi to 0 in under a minute, likely the result of bad o-rings, a damaged cylinder cap or an improperly installed seal housing. One other possibility is a leak at the bulkhead fittings themselves, check and re-check before going after o-rings.

O-Ring Seals: Keep in mind the technology and design of ARB o-ring seals and seal housings have changed in the recent years. Where they used to utilize a round cross-section o-ring, they are converting to an almost square cross-section o-ring, thus increasing the surface contact at the cylinder cap. Also, older ARB units utilized a clamped seal housing, which required great care while installing to maintain a concentric seal interface. New units use a "clip" style that actually "floats", thus ensuring a better interface between th o-ring seals and the cylinder cap. In some applications it is possible to upgrade your seal housing to the newer units (requires several other components for the complete install).

All this will eventually end up on my website in the ARB tech page

 

[Redline]

Fixed/Solenoids!

Kurt:

Your post was very helpful as a baseline of where to start and what to consider. I was very near the five minute mark but with both lockers running sometimes it was less. My locker use is typical & similar to yours, several seconds to clear an obstacle though there are times where extended use will occur. I would much rather have the compressor 'never' cycle, but if it does need to cycle a much longer interval is preferred.

I made a few calls to the ARB tech line last week and spoke Nils each time. He was helpful and I checked lots of stuff. Originally I thought it was the solenoids, then not, then again I suspected the solenoids. After checking and/or resealing many fittings everywhere except inside the diffs it was clear that the solenoids were leaking (I had already correct a few leaking fittings). The solenoid for the rear was leaking between the plastic top portion and the lower metal block, the typical failure/leak symptom according to Nils. The front solenoid was leaking from the top vent hole, Niles said this was probably an indication that there was debris (maybe pipe tape) in the solenoid. He sent me two new solenoids.

Last night I installed the new solenoids. I used PST thread sealant and let it sit for about 15-minutes after assembly before putting air to it. With the compressor and both lockers locked - all was ON for 48-minutes and still no compressor cycling!!! It was late and I needed to go to bed, I will see how much longer it will go in the future, but close to an hour is a monumental improvement from the few minutes it would hold prior to the repair.

Front Locker Only

After being told how, last week I added another wire from the rear of the rear locker switch to the front switch, allowing me to run the front locker without the rear. This is nice for maximum control/flexibility and was also helpful when diagnosing the leaks.

Compressor Performance

When I was talking to ARB/Nils regrading my set-up, he made a few interesting comments about the CKMA12 compressor. Surely one can be skeptical of his statements because he works for ARB, but he sounded genuine to me, and he is obviously a tech guy not a sales guy. I'm encouraged and curious enough that I plan to test a little of what he said. He was enthusiastic about the new CKMA12 pump, saying that is it a "kick ***" pump and that the 50% duty cycle rating is very conservative. I mentioned the OJ report of its higher running temperature, he said that at least part of the reason the compressor runs hot is that it is a sealed unit where most other compressors are not. He said the compressor can be mounted exposed to the elements (under the car, etc.) as long as the air intake is ingesting good, clean air. He told me how long the compressor was run underwater (I think it was several hours) with the intake out of the water of course.

Redline

Some cut and pastes from similar threads I've responded too, hope this sheds some light.

Compressor Cycling: My "bottom line" is 5 minutes. If they cycle sooner than that you have an appreciable leak. Why 5 minutes? Well I honestly pulled that out of my head... based on my experience with the hundreds of ARB setups I've sold and installed, some might feel comfortable with a bit more or less time, but I wouldn't send anything out the door or using something on my vehicle that had a lower bottom line. I usually only have my Air Lockers on when needed, sometimes 30 seconds or less... however there are times I leave them on for hours on end while tooling around in the snow or sand, last thing you want is a compressor running all the time, potentially damaging itself. If you are nearing the bottom line for compressor cycling, first check & tighten all of your airline fittings. As the system does not hold much volume, even a very small leak can be enough to cause the pressure switch to instigate a cycling of the compressor, make sense?

Near or below the bottom line and have checked and re-checked your fitting using soapy water or similar medium? Perform a leak-down test on your actual differential, from the bulkhead fitting to the seal housing inside the axle. Doing so will require you to either find a shop with the specialty tools, or to build a test apparatus. Ours allows us to charge the differential to a variable pressure (using the pressure regulator on the compressor). We then block off the input air source (ball valve) and disconnect. Our apparatus has a pressure gauge between the bulkhead fitting and the ball valve, thus allowing us to see how much pressure the locker system is retaining. We will actually charge the system to 100psi (slightly higher than the standard operating pressure) and allow it to sit for at least 10 minutes, periodically spinning the differential to make sure the pressure doesn't spike (indicating a bad seal to cylinder cap interface). Assuming less than 5 psi is lost over the 10 minutes, we call it good to go and either ship or install into the vehicle. In most cases, the locker will lose 0psi, even when sitting for 20 or more minutes. However, I have had customers bring vehicles to us for locker failure analysis, we've seem them losing air rapidly, going from 100psi to 0 in under a minute, likely the result of bad o-rings, a damaged cylinder cap or an improperly installed seal housing. One other possibility is a leak at the bulkhead fittings themselves, check and re-check before going after o-rings.

O-Ring Seals: Keep in mind the technology and design of ARB o-ring seals and seal housings have changed in the recent years. Where they used to utilize a round cross-section o-ring, they are converting to an almost square cross-section o-ring, thus increasing the surface contact at the cylinder cap. Also, older ARB units utilized a clamped seal housing, which required great care while installing to maintain a concentric seal interface. New units use a "clip" style that actually "floats", thus ensuring a better interface between th o-ring seals and the cylinder cap. In some applications it is possible to upgrade your seal housing to the newer units (requires several other components for the complete install).

All this will eventually end up on my website in the ARB tech page

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... all was ON for 48-minutes and still no compressor cycling!!! It was late and I needed to go to bed, I will see how much longer it will go in the future, but close to an hour is a monumental improvement from the few minutes it would hold prior to the repair.

Good to hear

...Front Locker Only

After being told how, last week I added another wire from the rear of the rear locker switch to the front switch, allowing me to run the front locker without the rear. This is nice for maximum control/flexibility and was also helpful when diagnosing the leaks.

Ya coulda asked
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_ARB_Independent.html

...Compressor Performance

When I was talking to ARB/Nils regrading my set-up, he made a few interesting comments about the CKMA12 compressor. Surely one can be skeptical of his statements because he works for ARB, but he sounded genuine to me, and he is obviously a tech guy not a sales guy....

I'm sold on them too, I did have one DOA compressor, still need to send it back to ARB to let them figure it out (I would tear it apart but its under warranty), that said I've sold a couple dozen or more of them and this was the only issue.

 

[IH8RDS]

Front Locker Only

After being told how, last week I added another wire from the rear of the rear locker switch to the front switch, allowing me to run the front locker without the rear. This is nice for maximum control/flexibility and was also helpful when diagnosing the leaks.

I have been considering that mod myself, but I haven't been in a situation yet where I feel I would benefit. I usually keep the rear locked and cycle the front on an off when needed.

Mine has been holding air pretty good too. I haven't noticed any change over the past year.

 

[Redline]

I can't say that I have had a need (YET) for front locker only either. But I'm now prepared if I need or want it and the mod was helpful in diagnosing the front/rear leaks separately.

I have been considering that mod myself, but I haven't been in a situation yet where I feel I would benefit. I usually keep the rear locked and cycle the front on an off when needed.

Mine has been holding air pretty good too. I haven't noticed any change over the past year.

 

[Redline]

2-Hours & 50-Sec!

Went on a short wheeling trip today for a couple hours, mostly to shoot pictures of a friend's H1, but I took the Mall Crawler and used the lockers a bit. Worked well for the short time they were on.

Back at home I was puttering in my shop and left the compressor and both lockers engaged for 2-hrs 48-min. before needing to go in for dinner I was in and out of the garage but mostly in; no compressor cycling

I'm very happy.

EDIT:

It wasn't 2 minutes but 2-HOURS and 48-minutes without the compressor cycling!

 

[teotwaki]

How about some pictures of the compressor install under the hood?

Went on a short wheeling trip today for a couple hours, mostly to shoot pictures of a friend's H1, but I took the Mall Crawler and used the lockers a bit. Worked well for the short time they were on.

Back at home I was puttering in my shop and left the compressor and both lockers engaged for 2:48 before needing to go in for dinner I was in and out of the garage but mostly in; no compressor cycling

I'm very happy.

 

[Redline]

I will try to do that soon, remind me later if you don't see any in a couple weeks...

Right now my engine compartment is both dirty and not here. The car is in the shop for an alignment/suspension issue that I will post about in an A-Arm thread.

How about some pictures of the compressor install under the hood?