I guess that's possible, but I like the air bag option better for functionality and preserving the articulation when just riding trails in the truck with trailer. The Timbrens are still just rubber stops like the OEM stops but a higher grade and larger. Perhaps if it had the Bison jounce control hydraulic stops it would be a different story but those are $$$ as an aftermarket upgrade and still passive. I prefer the adjustability of air bags, in theory anyway. I've had factory bags on cars and loved it.
Arkto G12 Review and Discussion
- Thread starter ruadhrigh
- Start date
After doing some more research, it looks like the best way to solve our problem is to use weight distribution hitch rather than airbags or a new leaf pack. The WDH actually rebalances the weight from the rear truck axle to the front and trailer axles, in addition to fixing the ride height. The rear axle treatments only address ride height. But the axle is still likely to be overloaded and the front end still riding high and light.
There are plenty of YT videos on this but HERE is the one that convinced me.
The Arkto has the Max Coupler hitch, so I expect a WDH will negate some of the off road capability of that hitch type and limit articulation on trails but we do most trail riding without the trailer leaving it at basecamp. So that plus the reduced ground clearance at the hitch is hopefully not going to be a huge PITA.
Cheapskate'sParadise
Member
I'd avoid a WDH like Measles at the grocery store.
Our method (rig is a modified HiLo, 4000# wet in remote mode, single beam tongue for 90+ degree jackknifing left or right, McHitch, custom bumper to get the Tacoma receiver as high as possible, parabolic leaf springs for heavy loads, Firestone airbag kit with cups - so bags only bolted at top) is:
Towing: bags set to unloaded height using a gap stick between hub and wheel well, plus parabolics.
Wheeling: After trailer disconnect, I lay under the truck and force the bags out of the way while lady works the Schrader. Full articulation plus the gentle friction-free performance of parabolics.
Between these two modes, we have 70-80k of towing/wheeling/driving experience. Flawless so far. The above system goes anywhere two limited-slip diffs will go.
Our method (rig is a modified HiLo, 4000# wet in remote mode, single beam tongue for 90+ degree jackknifing left or right, McHitch, custom bumper to get the Tacoma receiver as high as possible, parabolic leaf springs for heavy loads, Firestone airbag kit with cups - so bags only bolted at top) is:
Towing: bags set to unloaded height using a gap stick between hub and wheel well, plus parabolics.
Wheeling: After trailer disconnect, I lay under the truck and force the bags out of the way while lady works the Schrader. Full articulation plus the gentle friction-free performance of parabolics.
Between these two modes, we have 70-80k of towing/wheeling/driving experience. Flawless so far. The above system goes anywhere two limited-slip diffs will go.
Cheapskate'sParadise
Member
While I can't tell for sure, it seems that there is a habit of not rotating the jockey wheel to a travel mode when connected to the truck. Since I own the same equipment, this gets my imagination going regarding unwanted outcomes.
You mean in the photos I posted? Just coincedence that I took photos in that mode. It gets stowed before we start going. The GM tow mode has a checklist which includes this point for good measure.
Your system sounds good except for the under the truck part for wheeling. If you check the YT video I linked, you'll see that bags adjust ride height but do virtually nothing for balancing weight on the axles. So the rig might be level but still overloading the rear axle/breaings etc. Bags are ideal for a heavy load in the bed without a trailer, or a fifth wheel. Even in conjunction with WDH to dial in the rig prefectly level or add adjustability.
What is your beef with WDH specifically? for on-road use I mean
FWIW I am going with a Reese steadi flex model for 600 lb. It's the right capacity, has 1" hitch hole, 3" drop, easy to install and set up, and pretty budget friendly from eTrailer.
Cheapskate'sParadise
Member
Some trailer manufacturers forbid WDH aggressively to clearly shift liability onto the user. Assuming that the Arkto is an engineered product (at least the frame), ask them for a written opinion regarding, for example, crossing a large railroad hump (the type with warning signs for big rigs).
Beyond engineering considerations, who wants the hassle of connect/disconnect every time a challenge is detected? Consider loading your trailer differently to reduce towball mass. Much of the USA wives tails are wrong regarding loading -- read the Australian literature/YT.
For example, I've built a removable device that compresses heavy items into an area just above our trailer CM airbag suspension axle center of rotation. The heavy items cannot move. Arrive at boondock, open door, raise roof, move heavy items to a more appropriate place, camp. Mostly this is for superior offroad performance, but good offroad configuration is good for highway use too. It is work, but we've chosen this hobby, in part, to get my fat keister out of a chair -- so I like the work.
Using physics/statics-dynamics is a better choice than WDH.
Beyond engineering considerations, who wants the hassle of connect/disconnect every time a challenge is detected? Consider loading your trailer differently to reduce towball mass. Much of the USA wives tails are wrong regarding loading -- read the Australian literature/YT.
For example, I've built a removable device that compresses heavy items into an area just above our trailer CM airbag suspension axle center of rotation. The heavy items cannot move. Arrive at boondock, open door, raise roof, move heavy items to a more appropriate place, camp. Mostly this is for superior offroad performance, but good offroad configuration is good for highway use too. It is work, but we've chosen this hobby, in part, to get my fat keister out of a chair -- so I like the work.
Using physics/statics-dynamics is a better choice than WDH.
I've asked Arkto if they recommend any WDH and they did not have one to recommend. But also did not advise against it in any way.
Please share any links to Aussie take on the subject. I would love to read or watch more on the subject. They build some of the most trick trailers out there so I would value their POV.
Trialer weight and balance is indeed crucial to overall performance and safety. I firmly disagree that on-road performance is equivalent to off-road performance. Off-road there is little concern with sway control which is directly linked to how the trailer is loaded and balanced. A trailer loaded with CG too far aft, without the right amount of tongue weight, becomes unstable on the road and at higher speeds. The same is not true off-road where a light tongue weight might - might - be prefereable. Until you start up an incline and the trailer CG tips back and is lifting your vehicle rear end and costs you traction. Or vice versa going downhill when the neutral CG trailer weight now shifts to the hitch and raises the vehicle front end costing you braking and steering control. Air bags are not helping in this case except to maintain ground clearance.
Please share any links to Aussie take on the subject. I would love to read or watch more on the subject. They build some of the most trick trailers out there so I would value their POV.
Trialer weight and balance is indeed crucial to overall performance and safety. I firmly disagree that on-road performance is equivalent to off-road performance. Off-road there is little concern with sway control which is directly linked to how the trailer is loaded and balanced. A trailer loaded with CG too far aft, without the right amount of tongue weight, becomes unstable on the road and at higher speeds. The same is not true off-road where a light tongue weight might - might - be prefereable. Until you start up an incline and the trailer CG tips back and is lifting your vehicle rear end and costs you traction. Or vice versa going downhill when the neutral CG trailer weight now shifts to the hitch and raises the vehicle front end costing you braking and steering control. Air bags are not helping in this case except to maintain ground clearance.
Cheapskate'sParadise
Member
What is your go-to towball mass, as a percentage of total trailer mass? You might want to re-read the *specifics* of our loading practice, then re-consider your words above. What is your current Cat Scale numbers for the three axes? What are the values for the laden truck alone? I can't help you learn, but good google search terms and avoidance of US practices will improve your on-road and off-road stabilities. Have Arkto consulted their trailer-focused mechanical engineer (likely hired just to correct their own drawings/material choices/welding plan) for the written advice regarding WDH -- what does this written advice say? Trailer builders rarely have mechanical engineering experience/tools, but the good ones hire this out.
To readers generally: why would someone who intends to boondock, even just on forest service roads, tolerate a build that requires ANY WDH/sway/etc contraption? Beyond the hassle, the risk of unwanted mechanical drama goes up because of the concentrated forces and lever effects. The physics of a trailer can be controlled by the user ...
To readers generally: why would someone who intends to boondock, even just on forest service roads, tolerate a build that requires ANY WDH/sway/etc contraption? Beyond the hassle, the risk of unwanted mechanical drama goes up because of the concentrated forces and lever effects. The physics of a trailer can be controlled by the user ...
K9LTW
Active member
Sorry I’m just seeing this now. I know you’re leaning WDH, but bags also have utility when not towing if you happen to have a heavy load…or unbalanced load. And can…within reason, level your truck at camp. Though not a concern of yours, necessarily. I have an OVRLND camper on my RAM. Two bed, 1-1/2 bath apartment when we have the trailer with us
I use AirLift’s WirelessAir dual channel system for independent control of the bags. No valves to mess with and I can adjust it for leveling from my phone. I have the LoadLifter 5000 Ultimates with Daystar cradles. If you can add cradles to your axle vs putting bags in the springs, you lose virtually no articulation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cheapskate'sParadise
Member
"If you can add cradles to your axle vs putting bags in the springs, you lose virtually no articulation."
Cradles are the key. We choose to spend another 45 seconds per side with a crowbar to force the bags to full deflation, then allow the Schrader to hold them flat and out of the way. Essentially, we have used the bags as bump stops since installation 70-80k miles ago. These are tough industrial products, and I see no meaningful damage.
We avoid the modern complications since we go/stay very remote. AirbagMan is the Australian airbag automation vendor -- but manual inflation/deflation is simpler and should be more reliable.
The left and the right bags cannot be tied together -- they must remain separate.
Cradles are the key. We choose to spend another 45 seconds per side with a crowbar to force the bags to full deflation, then allow the Schrader to hold them flat and out of the way. Essentially, we have used the bags as bump stops since installation 70-80k miles ago. These are tough industrial products, and I see no meaningful damage.
We avoid the modern complications since we go/stay very remote. AirbagMan is the Australian airbag automation vendor -- but manual inflation/deflation is simpler and should be more reliable.
The left and the right bags cannot be tied together -- they must remain separate.
