Building My Overland Tacoma: Plans, Progress, Perplexions

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
The Fram G3 & equivalent plastic bodied fuel filters do a wonderful job of filtering vent air for very little money.
I would not want a check valve in a vent system, even if I never do deep water crossings. Perhaps a discriminator valve, but not a check valve. I use fuel hose for the vent hoses and usually bundle them with the brake hose.

On my 'glass buggy the trans-axle's OE vent is a labyrinth in the nose-cone casting. I plugged that at the small hole with J-B Weld and tapped the part near the former hole (maintaining use of the labyrinth as much as was reasonable) for an 1/8" NPT hose nipple.
 
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Overland Hadley

on a journey
soonenough said:
Yes, barring the possibility that it is not sealing properly, the valve only allows pressure to exit the differential, but does not allow air to enter.

I saw a picture once of someone that either disassembled or cut away the diff breather, and it's basically a housing with a spring on top of a little seal plate that seats against the housing. The internal pressure of the differential works on the bottom side of that little seal plate, and when enough force is created to overcome the spring force, the seal plate is lifted off seat and air is allowed to burp out. However, there is no way for air to go the other way around the plate.


Thank you, good explanation.

So a diff breather is more of a diff burp valve. Got it.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
Photog said:
The problem with this one-way-valve is, a quick dunk in the cold water will create a stout vacuum in the cooling axle housing, and try to pull water in past the axle seals. This could bring dirt into the seal too. Either one of these will eventually cause problems.

soonenough said:
Exactly! That was my concern with simply extending the diff breather, as it doesn't eliminate the problem with the design. However, the front diff and transfer case use the exact same breather, so I guess they are probably susceptible to the same problems. I'm assuming that design engineers at Toyota have considered this possibility and don't think that it will be an issue, so maybe we shouldn't be worried.

I do remember reading an article somewhere about Land Cruisers / Rovers (can't remember which) that were having water ingress issues during water crossings, and after changing the one-way valve out for a simple filter, everything was fine. As much as I'd like to think that Toyota designed it this way for a reason, I just can't see how this wouldn't create the exact problem Photog is describing. I did read somewhere that part of the SOP for water crossings should be to stop and let the differentials cool down before submerging them, which would minimize the difference in temperature between the diff and the water, hopefully creating a smaller pressure drop inside the housing.


And so the problem is more water entering the seals, rather than water flowing into the diff breather. So simply extending the breather line while maintaining the same one way valve is not the best answer. What we want to do is take out the one way valve and put in a filter, and because it is a filter it needs to be raised above the possible water line.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
ntsqd said:
The Fram G3 & equivalent plastic bodied fuel filters do a wonderful job of filtering vent air for very little money.
I would not want a check valve in a vent system, even if I never do deep water crossings. Perhaps a discriminator valve, but not a check valve. I use fuel hose for the vent hoses and usually bundle them with the brake hose.

So to vent my rear diff, I am going to be using a fuel filter at the end of a fuel line.

Where do I run the vent line to have the filter in a clean, dry place? (I would like to run as little line as possible.)

I know people put it by the fuel door, but is this the best place? It is not water tight, it can get very wet when I wash the truck, also if the gas pump does not shut off gas goes everywhere. How worried do I need to be about the filter getting wet?
 

soonenough

Explorer
Overland Hadley said:
So to vent my rear diff, I am going to be using a fuel filter at the end of a fuel line.

Where do I run the vent line to have the filter in a clean, dry place? (I would like to run as little line as possible.)
I've seen a lot of people extend them up next to the 2 breathers for the front diff and transfer case, which are on the drivers side of the engine bay against the fender well. It's really is a matter of how high you want to run them, and how high you think the water might get on your truck.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
My first rear axle vent hose on Patch went up to the underside of the bed and was fastened to some of the under-bed structure. I never had an issue with it, but I decided to bring all of the vents to a common breather filter. Mostly because the baffle can and filter had come off the buggy and were laying there in the garage.......
 

OldSven

Explorer
Allready tried them, no worky:( The tried and true way is to just install a barb fitting in the axle, then run a rubber hose up to your gas fill door and attach the stock breather on that. 3yrs and still no water in the diff.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
OldSven said:
Allready tried them, no worky:( The tried and true way is to just install a barb fitting in the axle, then run a rubber hose up to your gas fill door and attach the stock breather on that. 3yrs and still no water in the diff.

It is just if you have the stock breather on the end of a hose, you will still have the issue of a one way valve, thus the possibility of creating a vacuum.

But this is the way that the front diff and transfer case is done, so it probably works fine.
 

madizell

Explorer
For what it is worth --

The general concensus on this and other Toyota-related boards is that the rear diff breather is essentially a one-way valve that, over the time of heat and cool cycles, creates a bit of vacuum in the housing. My question would be "why has Toyota done this?" Since even Toyota won't know the answer unless you are asking an engineer, let's guess:

Toyota, just as with all other vehicle manufacturers, build vehicles for street use. (Rhetorical Question Follows) In street mode, which would be the better situation: A) a fully vented axle housing that, without an adequate filter and a condensation trap, will allow contaminated air to pass into the housing; or B) leak-free seals?

Obviously, a leak-free housing is way better than having atmospheric air in the housing on a routine basis. Even allowing nothing but filtered air to pass back and forth into the housing will allow water to enter because air carries water all the time. Depending on where you live, it can carry a whole lot of water, and water itself can carry other contaminates such as salt. So, in a vented axle hot moist air enters the housing as it cools, and the moisture condenses on the housing. Reheating the housing drives the moisture back into the air in the housing, but does not drive it entirely out of the housing. Over time, your housing accumulates water condensed from the atmosphere. Not a lot, but enough to cause little puddles which will corrode housing and gears in time.

Alternatively, if you place a one-way valve on the housing, air passes out, but can't get back in, creating a small vacuum. Is this a problem in street mode? No. The vacuum is not great, and has little more effect than keeping oil from weeping past seals. It is not a strong enough vacuum to draw air into the housing (or it would not hold a vacuum) so it is not drawing air, water, or anything else into the housing. If air (which is a thin liquid) can not get in, neither can water which, in its liquid state, is far thicker than air.

So, from a street perspective, the one-way valve is the way to go. It keeps the housing clean and, by having a tiny vacuum at the inner surface of the seal, keeps the seals from weeping. No weepage, no customer complaints.

But on the street, heat and cool cycles are generally of long duration, and we rarely park our vehicles with the axles under water. It is not likely that you can often plunge cool an axle while driving on streets. Even deep puddle splash has little effect on the temperature of an axle because of the enormous thermal mass involved, the relatively low conductivity of the housing, and the short duration of exposure.

On the trails, however, we do see occasional deep water which, crossed at slow speeds, can tend to chill the housing at least sufficiently to reverse the flow of pressure through the check valve. The question is, can this sudden chill cause axles to leak water?

Probably not, as long as the valve and seals are in good condition. Whether the housing chills fast or slow, the differential in pressure is the same. If the housing is air tight enough to hold vacuum overnight sitting at home, it is sufficiently tight to hold vacuum while driving on the trail, all else being equal. So it does not matter whether the axle is rapidly chilled while crossing a water hole? It is no more likely to leak that way an any other. As long as everything else is equal and the seals are good.

Why then do we raise the vent? In my opinion, it is only to prevent untoward possibilities. If the one way valve fails and is also under water, water intrudes immediately. If the seals have gathered some grit that might possibly hold a seal lip open a bit and a chill occurs, water intrudes immediately. If your vehicle is bouncing back and forth over rocks, and the motion causes seals to be momentarily challenged due to deflection, and they are also under water, water can intrude immediately. If the axle housing is vented to atmosphere without a check valve and any of the above happen, the pressure is neutral at the seals and water is not likely to intrude. So, for off road use we use an atmospheric vent instead of a check valve.

Whether you use the stock check valve or a filter is up to you. I would suggest that if you are not doing hard core mud bogging or see deep water on a regular basis, extending the stock valve is probably a better solution because it maintains the factory intended environment most of the time, whereas using an open filter is going to allow atmospheric water to enter your housing every day. If you drive a dedicated off road vehicle, I would suggest an open vent, because it saves the housing in extreme circumstances, and we tend to maintain our axle fluids far more often than the average street driver would. In either case, I would extend the vent to a reasonably high position on the vehicle where it is away from splash.
 
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Overland Hadley

on a journey
madizell said:
For what it is worth --

The general concensus on this and other Toyota-related boards is that the rear diff breather is essentially a one-way valve that, over the time of heat and cool cycles, creates a bit of vacuum in the housing. My question would be "why has Toyota done this?" Since even Toyota won't know the answer unless you are asking an engineer, let's guess:

Toyota, just as with all other vehicle manufacturers, build vehicles for street use. (Rhetorical Question Follows) In street mode, which would be the better situation: A) a fully vented axle housing that, without an adequate filter and a condensation trap, will allow contaminated air to pass into the housing; or B) leak-free seals?

Obviously, a leak-free housing is way better than having atmospheric air in the housing on a routine basis. Even allowing nothing but filtered air to pass back and forth into the housing will allow water to enter because air carries water all the time. Depending on where you live, it can carry a whole lot of water, and water itself can carry other contaminates such as salt. So, in a vented axle hot moist air enters the housing as it cools, and the moisture condenses on the housing. Reheating the housing drives the moisture back into the air in the housing, but does not drive it entirely out of the housing. Over time, your housing accumulates water condensed from the atmosphere. Not a lot, but enough to cause little puddles which will corrode housing and gears in time.

Alternatively, if you place a one-way valve on the housing, air passes out, but can't get back in, creating a small vacuum. Is this a problem in street mode? No. The vacuum is not great, and has little more effect than keeping oil from weeping past seals. It is not a strong enough vacuum to draw air into the housing (or it would not hold a vacuum) so it is not drawing air, water, or anything else into the housing. If air (which is a thin liquid) can not get in, neither can water which, in its liquid state, is far thicker than air.

So, from a street perspective, the one-way valve is the way to go. It keeps the housing clean and, by having a tiny vacuum at the inner surface of the seal, keeps the seals from weeping. No weepage, no customer complaints.

But on the street, heat and cool cycles are generally of long duration, and we rarely park our vehicles with the axles under water. It is not likely that you can often plunge cool an axle while driving on streets. Even deep puddle splash has little effect on the temperature of an axle because of the enormous thermal mass involved, the relatively low conductivity of the housing, and the short duration of exposure.

On the trails, however, we do see occasional deep water which, crossed at slow speeds, can tend to chill the housing at least sufficiently to reverse the flow of pressure through the check valve. The question is, can this sudden chill cause axles to leak water?

Probably not, as long as the valve and seals are in good condition. Whether the housing chills fast or slow, the differential in pressure is the same. If the housing is air tight enough to hold vacuum overnight sitting at home, it is sufficiently tight to hold vacuum while driving on the trail, all else being equal. So it does not matter whether the axle is rapidly chilled while crossing a water hole? It is no more likely to leak that way an any other. As long as everything else is equal and the seals are good.

Why then do we raise the vent? In my opinion, it is only to prevent untoward possibilities. If the one way valve fails and is also under water, water intrudes immediately. If the seals have gathered some grit that might possibly hold a seal lip open a bit and a chill occurs, water intrudes immediately. If your vehicle is bouncing back and forth over rocks, and the motion causes seals to be momentarily challenged due to deflection, and they are also under water, water can intrude immediately. If the axle housing is vented to atmosphere without a check valve and any of the above happen, the pressure is neutral at the seals and water is not likely to intrude. So, for off road use we use an atmospheric vent instead of a check valve.

Whether you use the stock check valve or a filter is up to you. I would suggest that if you are not doing hard core mud bogging or see deep water on a regular basis, extending the stock valve is probably a better solution because it maintains the factory intended environment most of the time, whereas using an open filter is going to allow atmospheric water to enter your housing every day. If you drive a dedicated off road vehicle, I would suggest an open vent, because it saves the housing in extreme circumstances, and we tend to maintain our axle fluids far more often than the average street driver would. In either case, I would extend the vent to a reasonably high position on the vehicle where it is away from splash.


Madizell,

You have just made my day! Thank you so much!

As you can tell I am still learning these simple things, I know a little, but just enough to make me dangerous. But thanks to you I have a better understanding of what is happening with the rear differential breather. I only had time to give it a quick read, but I will read it again a couple of times tonight.

Thank you for taking the time to write and very clear, helpful, and thorough description of how the system works.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
I sent a PM to Scott Brady asking what he had done with his Tacoma. Here is his reply.

My my truck, I took the simple route and used the stock breather, extended with some Goodyear synthetic hose. I just cleaned the stock breather thoroughly.

That information along with Madizell's thoughts on the subject have settled it for me, raised stock breather it is.

If anybody is interested, here is a rear diff breather extension guide, with part numbers.
http://www.toyota120.com/html/rear_diff_breather.html


Scott Brady knows water crossings. From Snorkel Wars thread, post 129.
expeditionswest said:
2007-07-30-30D-IMG_1561.JPG


2007-07-30-30D-IMG_1563.JPG


The current was so strong that is moved my 6,000 lb truck about 5 feet down stream.

Photos: Doug Hackney
 

heeltoe989

Explorer
Overland Hadley said:
A night at the beach.





I'm envious of you getting out so much, I got out twice this year. to busy with work and family. Have a few more plans for next year though.

:beer: :beer: :beer: :26_7_2:
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
heeltoe989 said:
I'm envious of you getting out so much, I got out twice this year. to busy with work and family. Have a few more plans for next year though.

:beer: :beer: :beer: :26_7_2:

Thanks.
Living in the middle of nowhere has its advantages, and its disadvantages.
 

Overland Hadley

on a journey
I was driving in the National Forest last night, stopping and checking the ice on the lakes we passed. The heater in the cab was going full blast, but we also had the the windows open part way so we could hear the fresh snow crunching under the ATs. All the aux lights were turned on, blazing a path down the dark forest road. We were the first ones down that way since the new snow had fallen, so we had a great view of the animal tracks that crossed and followed the road. A moose had walked along the edge of the road for a ways before wading back into the deep brush, small crazed lines in the snow from where a mouse or other small creatures had run across the road. An otter had traveled along the road, running and sliding, running and sliding its way down the road, before turning off at the next creek. Big sweeping marks from where a bird had landed in the snow, perhaps catching one of the little rodents. Then we came across wolf tracks, not crossing the road, but running straight down the middle. After a couple of minutes of following the tracks we came over a small rise and there in front of us was the wolf. It turned and looked towards us, I tried to kill the lights but by the time I had them off it had jumped across the ditch and was in the woods. We parked the truck, turned the lights back on and got out to look at the tracks. It was interesting to see how it had sped up before we saw it, and how it had slipped a little as it turned off the road. As we were standing there looking into the woods we heard it moving in the brush, it must have not been worried about us or we would have never heard it and it would have been long gone. But it was standing there, just outside of the throw of the lights. I then had the feeling of being in the presence of something much greater than myself.


 

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