Can I be an environmentalist and also enjoy vehicle dependant travel?
- Thread starter Martyn
- Start date
How do you feel about sulfur credits? From what I understand it has been very successful in reducing acid rain in the NE. What the credits can do if managed correctly is ease the burden of technology shifts in the private sector while realizing a common goal, reducing emissions.
Jonathan Hanson said:
DesertRose
Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
GeoRoss said:
From a business and practicality point of view, I think pollution and greenhouse-gas (carbon) trading will work - perhaps Jonathan was talking more of a moral point of view - his own.
I agree with you completely on easing the burden on the private sector while realizing a common goal.
There is no easy solution (except pretending pollution isn't happening and we aren't screwing up the planet!) - but trying and tinkering is the next best thing.
Last edited:
Jonathan Hanson
Well-known member
I was speaking strictly from a personal (or individual company) moral point of view, not claiming that such practices don't work. Certainly for industries that necessarily pollute, carbon (or sulphur or whatever) credits can help offset the damage, and extract something from the company in return.
But if a major polluter in, say, Georgia buys carbon credits from a clean company in Maine, it doesn't do the residents of Georgia a whole lot of good, unless I'm mistaken about the entire scheme. And it still strikes me as arrogant to palliate your own inaction by tossing money at someone doing a better job of being a world citizen. Witness Al Gore and his 10,000-square-foot home.
I'm being too negative, especially since most of the posts here have been about precisely the kind of personal responsibility I'm talking about. If enough individuals commit themselves to individual action, the philosophy should spread upwards through larger and larger businesses.
A good book on the subject is The Ecology of Commerce, by Paul Hawken. He clearly proves that social responsibility and profit are not mutually exclusive.
But if a major polluter in, say, Georgia buys carbon credits from a clean company in Maine, it doesn't do the residents of Georgia a whole lot of good, unless I'm mistaken about the entire scheme. And it still strikes me as arrogant to palliate your own inaction by tossing money at someone doing a better job of being a world citizen. Witness Al Gore and his 10,000-square-foot home.
I'm being too negative, especially since most of the posts here have been about precisely the kind of personal responsibility I'm talking about. If enough individuals commit themselves to individual action, the philosophy should spread upwards through larger and larger businesses.
A good book on the subject is The Ecology of Commerce, by Paul Hawken. He clearly proves that social responsibility and profit are not mutually exclusive.
Martyn
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
This is data from 2000 but the premise still holds. It looks like the best thing you can do today,now, is to check that your tires are correctly inflated.
• 70 million motor vehicles were on the world's roads in 1950
• 630 million motor vehicles were on the world's roads in 1994
• 1 billion motor vehicles are expected to be on the world's roads by 2025, if the current growth rate continues
• 12,000 pounds of carbon dioxide are emitted by the average car each year
• 5 percent of a car's fuel can be wasted by underinflated tires
• 2 billion gallons of gasoline could be saved annually if 65 million car owners kept their tires properly inflated
• 85 percent of auto fuel is consumed just to overcome inertia and start the wheels turning
• 2.5 times more emissions are generated by SUVs and light trucks than by standard cars
• 33,000 natural gas vehicles were in use in the U.S. in 1993
• 75,000 natural gas vehicles were in use in the U.S. in 1998
• 50 million new cars roll off the assembly line each year
• 11 million cars are junked annually in the U.S.
Sources:
1-3 -- World Resources Institute
4 -- Environmental Working Group
5,6 -- 50 Simple Things You Can Do to Save the Earth
7 -- Amicus Journal
8 -- L.A. Times
9,10 -- U.S. Department of Transportation
11 -- Amicus Journal
12 -- Wall Street Journal.
- - - - - - - - - -
Josh Sevin is a graduate student in MIT's planning program. Previously, he was an editor at Greenwire environmental news service and a researcher for U.S. News.
• 70 million motor vehicles were on the world's roads in 1950
• 630 million motor vehicles were on the world's roads in 1994
• 1 billion motor vehicles are expected to be on the world's roads by 2025, if the current growth rate continues
• 12,000 pounds of carbon dioxide are emitted by the average car each year
• 5 percent of a car's fuel can be wasted by underinflated tires
• 2 billion gallons of gasoline could be saved annually if 65 million car owners kept their tires properly inflated
• 85 percent of auto fuel is consumed just to overcome inertia and start the wheels turning
• 2.5 times more emissions are generated by SUVs and light trucks than by standard cars
• 33,000 natural gas vehicles were in use in the U.S. in 1993
• 75,000 natural gas vehicles were in use in the U.S. in 1998
• 50 million new cars roll off the assembly line each year
• 11 million cars are junked annually in the U.S.
Sources:
1-3 -- World Resources Institute
4 -- Environmental Working Group
5,6 -- 50 Simple Things You Can Do to Save the Earth
7 -- Amicus Journal
8 -- L.A. Times
9,10 -- U.S. Department of Transportation
11 -- Amicus Journal
12 -- Wall Street Journal.
- - - - - - - - - -
Josh Sevin is a graduate student in MIT's planning program. Previously, he was an editor at Greenwire environmental news service and a researcher for U.S. News.
Clutch
<---Pass
Martyn,
Those numbers are quite scary when seen in black and white.
I think I have the same struggle you have, I love the outdoors, but, feel guilty the way I use my mode of transportation to veiw nature.
I absolutely love riding dirt bikes, and because of that mode of transportation, I get to see what most people never will. I can get to the places faster and easier than on foot, and have one hell of a good time getting there.
I know I am really hated by the pure "environmentalists". But, what do you do? I try to live a balanced life. Do I give up what I love? Do I make the bike more eco-freindly? Do I go live in a cave and eat nuts and berries, to have the least amount of impact?
I am sure I am like most people out there. My life hasn't been perfect, and now I am trying to live it the best way I know how.
Those numbers are quite scary when seen in black and white.
I think I have the same struggle you have, I love the outdoors, but, feel guilty the way I use my mode of transportation to veiw nature.
I absolutely love riding dirt bikes, and because of that mode of transportation, I get to see what most people never will. I can get to the places faster and easier than on foot, and have one hell of a good time getting there.
I know I am really hated by the pure "environmentalists". But, what do you do? I try to live a balanced life. Do I give up what I love? Do I make the bike more eco-freindly? Do I go live in a cave and eat nuts and berries, to have the least amount of impact?
I am sure I am like most people out there. My life hasn't been perfect, and now I am trying to live it the best way I know how.
Clutch
<---Pass
goodtimes said:
I was watching Planet Earth last night.
There was a wealthy English man who bought up a huge portion of rain forest. Which I thought was rather impressive. Then an economist comes on that wasn't happy with his actions, stating that he does have good intent, but, didn't see the social impact he had on the local people.
You can't win for loosing...
Erick Lihme
Observer
Looks like I'm not yet up to speed. In a recent post I was excited about the hybrid HUMV's and looking forward to seeing something like that on the road, and here it is, the about to be Icon. And it would be in a Landcruiser.
About environmental sensible vehicles. After years of planning, we are in escrow , purchasing property with river front. The dream seems to becoming a reality. It lends itself to a microhydro electric plant. It's the best we could do, as it may only produce up to 2Kw. However, that should be enough to charge an electric vehicle, if the house is budgeted wisely, perhaps a an old Toyota 4X converted, or perhaps an old Geo Metro. These things do not have to be high tech. The pickup has a bed for batteries, and it'd be fun to see if the gas motor could stay in place and drive the front axle. It'd be fun to try. At any rate, an old golf cart may be all we can afford. Eventhough it looks good, it's a dream, so we shall see, the permits may not obtainable.
Fuel prices between $5-$10/gal could kill the economy.
About environmental sensible vehicles. After years of planning, we are in escrow , purchasing property with river front. The dream seems to becoming a reality. It lends itself to a microhydro electric plant. It's the best we could do, as it may only produce up to 2Kw. However, that should be enough to charge an electric vehicle, if the house is budgeted wisely, perhaps a an old Toyota 4X converted, or perhaps an old Geo Metro. These things do not have to be high tech. The pickup has a bed for batteries, and it'd be fun to see if the gas motor could stay in place and drive the front axle. It'd be fun to try. At any rate, an old golf cart may be all we can afford. Eventhough it looks good, it's a dream, so we shall see, the permits may not obtainable.
Fuel prices between $5-$10/gal could kill the economy.
DesertRose
Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Erick Lihme said:
Interesting plans, keep us posted. There are some folks on this forum who know a bit about electric vehicles - there is a website about a guy who converted an old Wrangler. Maybe WD40 will post that here . . .
RoundOut
Explorer
Erick Lihme said:
I have thought the same thing about fuel at $3/gal. I used to think that a $.10 rise in gasoline prices was a non-issue, as it would not mean much money to even the longest-commuting drivers, but it meant a whole bunch to the independent oil producer that got a much better price for his/her production. When you add a series of $.10 increases though, it hurts pretty bad. Pre-Katrina gasoline prices were sub $2 in the Gulf Coast, i.e. $1.25 or so IIRC. I figured a bump to $3 on a supply disruption like happened in the Houston area would be short-lived, yet it has only been below $2 for a few weeks at a time for just a couple times since Rita. As much as I thought it would, it has not, except in specific areas perhaps, hurt the overall economy. Big trucks and SUVs still sell pretty well at the dealerships, too. This boggles my mind.
I put between 15K & 25K miles per year on my vehicle and (as a business owner) pay for my own fuel. If it went to $5 or $10, no question I'd have to do something else. Gas guzzler prices would likley tumble, too. It would be like the 1970's oil embargo days all over again. Suddenly, creative people and Detroit would focus more on economy to meet the demand. It would be a good thing for long-term environment, but a huge boon to the Arab states, Russia, and Ven's/Mexicans (oil exporters, in genereal), at least short-term. The worst part of the whole thing would be enriching the terrorist-sponsoring states even worse than we are already.
IMO, somewhere in the $4-$10 range, is enough pain to make the US entrepreneur act fast on getting a solution to market. What will it be? How quickly will it be adopted by the mainstream population? Will it be affordable for the ordinary workers? Will it really make a significant dent in the imports of oil to the US and exports of dollars to the rest of the world? I have no idea.
Separate thought.... I try to stay up on this and similar threads, but I may have missed this. Has anyone done any specific research on the cost/pollution created to re-charge electric vehicles? I would be interested to know if the average U.S. kilowatt that is used to charge an electric car is as clean as the internal combustion engine? I presume that it would be more efficient both economically and environmentallly, since it is generated in bulk.
grahamfitter
Expedition Leader
RoundOut said:
It depends on what you drive and whether its paid for. At what point is a payment on an economical car and cost of the gas it uses, cheaper than the gas on your current one?
For me it was when gas got to $1.69 a gallon in early 2004. At the time I had a Ford E-350 12 seat full size van that got 10-14 mpg and had 2 years left on the loan. With two of the rows of the seats removed there was lots of dry living space with plenty of room for sleeping and also cooking if needed. But taxiing my kids and all their friends around town during the week was really starting to hurt! I traded it in and bought my first ever brand new car: A Ford Focus station wagon that gets 30 mpg if I take the kayaks off the roof. I restarted a four year loan but my weekly gas cost so much less I calculated I'd break even in two years. The rest is history. I really miss travelling with the van though.
Before I got the Focus, my 15-17 mpg paid-for Jeep Wrangler was my economical car. Now it gets driven less because there's a cheaper option. I haven't done the math so I don't know how much gas will have to rise before a payment on something better is cheaper than running the Jeep.
RoundOut said:
I'm sure you're right but I don't have the numbers.
I read somewhere that because gasoline chainsaws, lawn mowers, snow blowers etc. have no emissions controls and are usually badly tuned, they spew a disproportionate amount of crap into the air. Electric ones are way better.
Similarly, I suspect that motorcycles don't have the same emissions controls that cars do. Four bikes that get 60 mpg each will use the same amount of fuel as an SUV that gets 15 mpg. I bet total bike pollution will be greater than the SUV pollution.
This is my sour grapes: My mother always forbade me from riding a motorcycle because they're dangerous. She encouraged safer activities like whitewater kayaking, rock climbing, ice climbing etc. I'm still here at 38 so she's probably right. But even though I've never sat on a motorcycle, every once in a while I get the urge to buy a dual sport bike and ride to the Southern tip of South America. Or Africa. Anywhere. Of course my ideas don't last longer than a short conversation with my mum! My long suffering and also motorcyclophobic girlfriend more pragmatically suggests increased life insurance. Fortunately its impractical to carry kayaks on a bike so when we do go, it will be on four wheels, not two.
Cheers,
Graham
Erick Lihme
Observer
Micro hydroelectric
Nice handle, it is fitting. I should get one.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm actively researching, seeking the latest high efficiency low pact turbines for low head situations. It could be critical for the permits It could be that the classic undershot water wheel will be the winner. Low tech, reliable, and environmental friendly, unfortunately it is less efficient, however, it would be pleasing to the eye. Fortunately the river is large and has the potential to produce up to perhaps 60 kW. I doubt they would allow invasion at that level, nor would we want to. We intend to establish a small RV park, and preserve the natural beauty as is possible, therefore a good old water wheel would fit nicely into the 2000 + feet of river which meanders though out, an idyllic spot.( Discounts could be available to Expedition Portal members! No bears allowed, other critters okay.) We seek to divert 2.25% to 4.5% (9,500 to 19,500 cfm +) with 5 to 10 feet of head, or the minimum necessary to produce 1kw.
I know very little and all the insight I can get would be helpful. I'm all ears! And if WD40 has some tips, I'd like to someday rig up a 80' Toyota pickup, however, a larger vehicle such as his might have greater range as it can carry the battery weight. There is at least one set up in a Toyota pickup which claims a range of 250 miles. It uses an expensive motor from Unique Mobility
DesertRose said:
Nice handle, it is fitting. I should get one.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm actively researching, seeking the latest high efficiency low pact turbines for low head situations. It could be critical for the permits It could be that the classic undershot water wheel will be the winner. Low tech, reliable, and environmental friendly, unfortunately it is less efficient, however, it would be pleasing to the eye. Fortunately the river is large and has the potential to produce up to perhaps 60 kW. I doubt they would allow invasion at that level, nor would we want to. We intend to establish a small RV park, and preserve the natural beauty as is possible, therefore a good old water wheel would fit nicely into the 2000 + feet of river which meanders though out, an idyllic spot.( Discounts could be available to Expedition Portal members! No bears allowed, other critters okay.) We seek to divert 2.25% to 4.5% (9,500 to 19,500 cfm +) with 5 to 10 feet of head, or the minimum necessary to produce 1kw.
I know very little and all the insight I can get would be helpful. I'm all ears! And if WD40 has some tips, I'd like to someday rig up a 80' Toyota pickup, however, a larger vehicle such as his might have greater range as it can carry the battery weight. There is at least one set up in a Toyota pickup which claims a range of 250 miles. It uses an expensive motor from Unique Mobility
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