Clutch’s deep thoughts thread...

[tacollie]

My speedometer does read incorrectly since the tire change, reading low by what I'm guesstimating to be 7%, but that's not a 50mph difference.

When I shift the truck from drive to s-mode, it goes into either S3, S4, or S5 automatically, depending on the speed (and possibly other factors). In the scenario I'm remembering, the truck went into S4, and would not allow me to shift down to S3. Now, S4 limits the top gear to fourth, so it's possible the truck was in a lower gear, but I would have expected it to then show me that it shifted directly into S3.

I get what the gear ratios suggest, but...

Maaaybe I was in third and didn't realize it (Drive -> S mode, truck displays S4 but either goes directly into third or shifts into it immediately while maintaining the S4 mode), but definitely not second.

In any case. Needs more power. A lot more.

The trailer should slow you down. You have a small naturally aspirated motor. 300lbs of furniture is not much and trust seems weird. Maybe you and @Clutch can contemplate full-size trucks together!

 

[XJLI]

Not sure if I posted this in this thread or not:

~4300lbs TJ, 1000lbs trailer and two dirt bikes and fuel in the bed. Out-towed my buddy's '04 6.0 2500 Chevy (towing closer to 7500lbs). There's also a '17 1500 Denali behind it towing 12k.

 

[Clutch]

Not sure if I posted this in this thread or not:

~4300lbs TJ, 1000lbs trailer and two dirt bikes and fuel in the bed. Out-towed my buddy's '04 6.0 2500 Chevy (towing closer to 7500lbs). There's also a '17 1500 Denali behind it towing 12k.

I wouldn't think a 3rd Gen should have a problem pulling a V-Nose 6X10/12, that has a dirt bike and few bits of camping gear. Basically what my 1st gen is hauls but tossed into a cargo trailer. My truck will pull it, but it is only "ok".

The trailer should slow you down. You have a small naturally aspirated motor. 300lbs of furniture is not much and trust seems weird. Maybe you and @Clutch can contemplate full-size trucks together!

300 lbs isn't much. For camping I am right around 1000 lbs of payload, towing 1500 lbs trailer. Does it just fine. It is if I added a cargo trailer to the mix is where problems arise. Borrowed my buddy's 6X10 (flat nose) jus to see, it wasn't happy at hwy speeds. Too much wind resistance, it was like towing a parachute.

 

[phsycle]

My speedometer does read incorrectly since the tire change, reading low by what I'm guesstimating to be 7%, but that's not a 50mph difference.

When I shift the truck from drive to s-mode, it goes into either S3, S4, or S5 automatically, depending on the speed (and possibly other factors). In the scenario I'm remembering, the truck went into S4, and would not allow me to shift down to S3. Now, S4 limits the top gear to fourth, so it's possible the truck was in a lower gear, but I would have expected it to then show me that it shifted directly into S3.

I get what the gear ratios suggest, but...

Maaaybe I was in third and didn't realize it (Drive -> S mode, truck displays S4 but either goes directly into third or shifts into it immediately while maintaining the S4 mode), but definitely not second.

In any case. Needs more power. A lot more.

Yeah, the info display does NOT show you what gear you are in. S-mode just shows you the top gear limit. That was a minor annoyance when I had an auto. I wished it showed you your gear like in every other truck out there now.

Power wise, this is where things get really subjective. What I find acceptable is intolerable by others. If you feel you need more power, just buck up and get a fullsize. No mid-size will satisfy your needs there, and I include the diesel Canyons. Towing a big trailer with a fullsize truck with either a V8 or turboV6 is a pure pleasure. You will tow it with EASE. No way I'd stick with a Tacoma if I were pulling a big enclosed trailer and/or heavy loads on a regular basis.

 

[phsycle]

Not sure if I posted this in this thread or not:

~4300lbs TJ, 1000lbs trailer and two dirt bikes and fuel in the bed. Out-towed my buddy's '04 6.0 2500 Chevy (towing closer to 7500lbs). There's also a '17 1500 Denali behind it towing 12k.

Nice. But how did it out-tow your buddy? Just curious. Was it not able to keep up with you on the uphills?

By the way, I thought TJ's were more like 3,800lbs or so. I only ask, because the new JL unlimited's (4-door) are 4,400lbs.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yeah, the info display does NOT show you what gear you are in. S-mode just shows you the top gear limit. That was a minor annoyance when I had an auto. I wished it showed you your gear like in every other truck out there now.

Seems like an automatic conundrum. Does it show the one you selected (or rather the one you suggested it use) or actual? Either way what it's indicating will sometimes be wrong. Manuals for the win. I wanted 3rd and I get 3rd regardless of RPM, throttle position, speed. Before rev limiters the request was 100% up to you...

Power wise, this is where things get really subjective. What I find acceptable is intolerable by others. If you feel you need more power, just buck up and get a fullsize. No mid-size will satisfy your needs there, and I include the diesel Canyons. Towing a big trailer with a fullsize truck with either a V8 or turboV6 is a pure pleasure. You will tow it with EASE. No way I'd stick with a Tacoma if I were pulling a big enclosed trailer and/or heavy loads on a regular basis.

You know I'm 100% behind this. Mid sizes are supposed to be smaller to meet a different need. Since when have they ever been good for towing? I think the compromise to grow the Taco is plenty nice since towing more than a small utility with my 1991 was torture. But even though I don't need to rent a truck as often anymore I still accept that it's not something I would want to routinely use for more than a utility trailer. That's fine, I don't live where I can park anything large anyway so the question rarely comes up. If I had the space and didn't park in town then I'd own a F150 instead. Not much reason to stick with a small truck if you can do a full size. I have my other reasons for wanting a small truck, mileage, cost, fitting on trails. It's not a one size fits all answer here. All this circle jerking about the Tacoma being a poor towing truck is exactly what's grown it to 85% of a traditional full size. Physics dictates that if you want the capability of a full size then you need the size and weight of one. The same thing happened with 1/2 tons, they grew to a 3/4 ton size because people didn't want to admit they actually needed that for their 30 foot camper.

 

[XJLI]

Nice. But how did it out-tow your buddy? Just curious. Was it not able to keep up with you on the uphills?

By the way, I thought TJ's were more like 3,800lbs or so. I only ask, because the new JL unlimited's (4-door) are 4,400lbs.

Starting at 55-60 MPH going uphill, the Tacoma out accelerated the Chevy when trying to pass. Probably the six speed trans was faster to pick the right gear, where the four speed is a LOT wider in the Chevy.

And not a stock TJ. Bumpers, wheels/tires, armor, fuel, etc.

 

[bkg]

Nice. But how did it out-tow your buddy? Just curious. Was it not able to keep up with you on the uphills?

I've towed with a lot of different vehicles... I'm not sold on the "out-tow"ing comment...

 

[phsycle]

Seems like an automatic conundrum. Does it show the one you selected (or rather the one you suggested it use) or actual? Either way what it's indicating will sometimes be wrong. Manuals for the win. I wanted 3rd and I get 3rd regardless of RPM, throttle position, speed. Before rev limiters the request was 100% up to you....

I'm sure it's programmed to prevent money-shift/over-revving. The display only shows the S-mode you're in. i.e. Put it in S4, and your top gear will be 4th, but you could be in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. Actual gear is not displayed.

You know you and Clutch (re)opened my eyes to MT's. Although I will say going through some of the technical parts on BBP got me puckered up more than if I had been in an auto! Oh how I wish there was simple bolt-on 4:1 transfer case. Super crawl ratio of the Tacobox would be pretty sweet, though. Some day...

...You know I'm 100% behind this. Mid sizes are supposed to be smaller to meet a different need. Since when have they ever been good for towing? I think the compromise to grow the Taco is plenty nice since towing more than a small utility with my 1991 was torture. But even though I don't need to rent a truck as often anymore I still accept that it's not something I would want to routinely use for more than a utility trailer. That's fine, I don't live where I can park anything large anyway so the question rarely comes up. If I had the space and didn't park in town then I'd own a F150 instead. Not much reason to stick with a small truck if you can do a full size. I have my other reasons for wanting a small truck, mileage, cost, fitting on trails. It's not a one size fits all answer here. All this circle jerking about the Tacoma being a poor towing truck is exactly what's grown it to 85% of a traditional full size. Physics dictates that if you want the capability of a full size then you need the size and weight of one. The same thing happened with 1/2 tons, they grew to a 3/4 ton size because people didn't want to admit they actually needed that for their 30 foot camper.

Yup. I hardly ever tow. I don't have space to store a trailer, either, so it works out. Maybe on occasion, I'll rent a Uhaul to take care of some bigger yard work or move. But I love the size for 99% of the time when I'm driving to work, parking in the city, driving off-road.

I wonder, though, if it was towing needs that "necessitated" the growth of the Tacoma. Or simply the want for more room. Virtually all other trucks and cars have grown in size. I drove a Civic in college. Almost a subcompact car. The Civics now are the size of mid-size sedans.

 

[Clutch]

Seems like an automatic conundrum. Does it show the one you selected (or rather the one you suggested it use) or actual? Either way what it's indicating will sometimes be wrong. Manuals for the win. I wanted 3rd and I get 3rd regardless of RPM, throttle position, speed. Before rev limiters the request was 100% up to you...

Had the same problem with the International 26' bobtail we rented to move from AZ to ID. Big ol' CAT diesel in the thing...but it was an auto, you could over-ride it to a point, then the computer would take over. It friggin sucked pulling grades. Where if it were a manual I could of left in the gear I wanted.

All this circle jerking about the Tacoma being a poor towing truck is exactly what's grown it to 85% of a traditional full size. Physics dictates that if you want the capability of a full size then you need the size and weight of one. The same thing happened with 1/2 tons, they grew to a 3/4 ton size because people didn't want to admit they actually needed that for their 30 foot camper.

I think that is part of it, believe the other is Americans are bigger people than it's original Asian market. And I am not talking about the size of our asses either. Was watching the Ken Burns movie on Vietnam recently. They were interviewing one of the Vietnamese Generals. He was saying the major difference between them and us, we are big, tall, and slow. Where they are small and quick.

Take my wife for an example on her trip to Thailand....she was so happy that the people there were about her size, she was able to find clothes that fit her with ease. While here most everything is cut for a larger person.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'm sure it's programmed to prevent money-shift/over-revving. The display only shows the S-mode you're in. i.e. Put it in S4, and your top gear will be 4th, but you could be in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. Actual gear is not displayed.

That's what I gathered and that's how I've known them to operate. You put the gear selector into the position of the top gear you want and the automatic can pick any from first up to it. Back when I remember them it was easy since you didn't need to take off your shoes and pull your pants down to count the number of shifts possible in 'D'. Now having the display showing what gear the transmission has actually selected seems more logical.

I wonder, though, if it was towing needs that "necessitated" the growth of the Tacoma. Or simply the want for more room. Virtually all other trucks and cars have grown in size. I drove a Civic in college. Almost a subcompact car. The Civics now are the size of mid-size sedans.

That's marketing for sure, you never can sell a vehicle that is smaller, less powerful, whatever than the previous one. So the Accord grows, the Civic becomes an Accord and they have to introduce a new model that is the old Civic. It's the same for phones (the size of a small tablet now), computers (more CPU cycles must mean faster), houses, everything. Which just reminded me of something, the tiny/small house movement. Where I grew up what is now defined as "small" would have been just called "a house".

 

[DaveInDenver]

I think that is part of it, believe the other is Americans are bigger people than it's original Asian market.

Anyone who wrenches on a Hilux can attest to this, you sometimes need the stature of an American middle school kid to do it the way the FSM shows.

 

[Clutch]

Anyone who wrenches on a Hilux can attest to this, you sometimes need the stature of an American middle school kid to do it the way the FSM shows.

That made me chuckle.

 

[bkg]

Anyone who wrenches on a Hilux can attest to this, you sometimes need the stature of an American middle school kid to do it the way the FSM shows.

I challenge that statement... I'd go elementary school.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I challenge that statement... I'd go elementary school.

So, live in Texas, do ya?