Clutch’s deep thoughts thread...

Clutch

<---Pass
That's the thing with statistics and probability, anecdotal evidence doesn't always fit. There's always a chance you're gonna be the one outlier. You can't use an emotional argument to decide something rationally. And all of this isn't a zero sum game. For you to survive an accident doesn't mean the other person has to die. So I'm not going to go around driving an M2 Bradley but I'm still going to try to tilt individual chances in my favor. Can I guarantee a good outcome for me? Absolutely not, that I can guarantee.

Guess what I am trying to say is. In my area we have a ton of Semis and lifted Bro-Dozers with their bumpers at my head height. A new Tacoma isn't going to be all that much safer against those. Sure a side curtain airbag will get my head crushed a little less. Only way to be leaps and bounds safer is to buy a much much bigger truck than a new Tacoma. Cause I think you're effed either way against those big trucks.

Actually it is a zero sum game, none of us get out alive. All the safety stuff just gives a false sense of security. Sure it may prolong the inevitable...but that is all it does. When your number is up, it is up. It is like all the food fads...sure go ahead be organic, vegan...non-GMO. The outcome is the same.
 
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Clutch

<---Pass
I don't know man. As illustrated below, quite a bit of advancement in crash safety. You can even see how much this has improved for the Tacoma as you look at the different years on that IIHS link (especially the small/moderate overlap tests). But you are right in (implying) that this only mitigates risk, not guarantees safety. You put a 5-star crash test rated 2019 Honda Civic against a 2005 F250....not a lot of doubt who'd win. Hmm, maybe I DO need that cow catcher freight train front bumper afterall...


We have certainly gotten better over the years safety-wise. But is is all relative. On your link they don't provide how much of a percentage it is better. Only Good, Acceptable, Marginal, and Poor. Need more detail than that. Is the 3rd gen 100% better than the 2nd? Or is it only 10%?

They had a newer Camry and his F150 was new. Simple physics. The Camry's hood was a ramp...and don't think I have to tell you what happened next.
 
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phsycle

Adventurer
We have certainly gotten better over the years safety-wise. But is is all relative. On your link they don't provide how much of a percentage it is better. Only Good, Acceptable, Marginal, and Poor. Need more detail than that. Is the 3rd gen 100% better than the 2nd? Or is only 10%?

They had a newer Camry and his F150 was new. Simple physics. The Camry's hood was a ramp...and don't think I have to tell you what happened next.

IIHS actually has this detailed on their site:

"
Understanding the ratings
How do vehicles that earn good ratings in the moderate overlap frontal test perform in similar real-world crashes? An analysis of 14 years worth of crash data involving IIHS-rated vehicles shows that a driver of a vehicle rated good in the moderate overlap test is 46 percent less likely to die in a frontal crash, compared with a driver of a vehicle rated poor. A driver of a vehicle rated acceptable or marginal is 33 percent less likely to die than a driver of a poorly rated one."

They seem to be pretty thorough on detailing their procedures:

https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/technical-information/technical-protocols

Again, that's no guarantee. Just basic statistics and risk factors.
 

phsycle

Adventurer
Is my truck safer than a '65 C10 or 88 Tacoma? Definitely is. But is my truck that much worse than a 2018 Silverado? $35k worth it of worse? Probably not.

Just merely pointing out that crashes happen most often during the commute/traffic hour. I thought it was funny you mentioned you use your truck 90% of the time for commuting to work, perhaps implying mundane activities reduce the risk of a crash. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how I read it. :D
 

Clutch

<---Pass
IIHS actually has this detailed on their site:

"
Understanding the ratings
How do vehicles that earn good ratings in the moderate overlap frontal test perform in similar real-world crashes? An analysis of 14 years worth of crash data involving IIHS-rated vehicles shows that a driver of a vehicle rated good in the moderate overlap test is 46 percent less likely to die in a frontal crash, compared with a driver of a vehicle rated poor. A driver of a vehicle rated acceptable or marginal is 33 percent less likely to die than a driver of a poorly rated one."

They seem to be pretty thorough on detailing their procedures:

https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/technical-information/technical-protocols

Thanks...I only skimmed it.

Of course you know what they say about statistics! :D;) Think most of it comes down to dumb luck.

This was just up the road from us.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/driver-survives-his-trucks-demolishing-by-two-semis-in-oregon-pileup/

B7mOmqqCUAAMqmN.jpg
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Just merely pointing out that crashes happen most often during the commute/traffic hour. I thought it was funny you mentioned you use your truck 90% of the time for commuting to work, perhaps implying mundane activities reduce the risk of a crash. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how I read it. :D

90% of accidents happen within 1 mile of your house, never go home and you're good! (loose quote from Steven Wright)
 

phsycle

Adventurer
90% of accidents happen within 1 mile of your house, never go home and you're good! (loose quote from Steven Wright)

Ha. They beat that into us when I first started riding. Never confirmed it myself. Close calls were near my house, away from my house, and everywhere in between. This was back when smartphones weren't a thing. Gave it up, as the risk was just not worth the reward any longer. I had my glory days and came out unscathed. Win for me.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Ha. They beat that into us when I first started riding. Never confirmed it myself. Close calls were near my house, away from my house, and everywhere in between. This was back when smartphones weren't a thing. Gave it up, as the risk was just not worth the reward any longer. I had my glory days and came out unscathed. Win for me.

Seems to be everywhere now. I have close calls all the time. Whether it is their fault or mine, the better half said I am really good driver, but I know I am not perfect either. Also said she would feel safer if I was in a bigger truck. Will I be safer??? who knows...I could trip off the porch and crack my head open.


I get what @DaveInDenver is saying...but I am guessing he isn't running out today to trade his '08 in on a '19 either.
 
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phsycle

Adventurer
Seems to be everywhere now. I have close calls all the time. Whether it is their fault or mine, the better half said I am really good driver, but I know I am not perfect either. Also said she would feel safer if I was in a bigger truck. Will I be safer??? who knows...I could trip off the porch and crack my head open.

I get what @DaveInDenver is saying...but I am guessing he isn't running out today to trade his '08 in on a '19 either.

As I get older, road comfort seems to play more of a factor. My 3rd gen is definitely more comfortable than my old 1st Gen, apparent on long road trips. But not as comfortable as a fullsize truck. My first gen was pretty much stock, so maybe it's not fair comparing old suspension components to new. Either way, midsize comfort is nothing compared to fullsize (even with size creep of these midsize trucks). Which is why I think either an extended cab or regular cab fullsize would be ideal for me when I retire. Enough comfort for the wife and I. Small enough for most trails. Enough capacity for a big shell and cargo.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
As I get older, road comfort seems to play more of a factor. My 3rd gen is definitely more comfortable than my old 1st Gen, apparent on long road trips. But not as comfortable as a fullsize truck. My first gen was pretty much stock, so maybe it's not fair comparing old suspension components to new. Either way, midsize comfort is nothing compared to fullsize (even with size creep of these midsize trucks). Which is why I think either an extended cab or regular cab fullsize would be ideal for me when I retire. Enough comfort for the wife and I. Small enough for most trails. Enough capacity for a big shell and cargo.

Just yesterday I almost had a head-on with a 2nd Gen Tacoma...came around a blind corner, and some chick yakking on her cell phone was in my lane. Thank goodness I was paying attention, and swerved off the road to miss her. Of course she raised her hands like it is my fault. That whole no personal accountability thing I was talking about.

The safety and comfort does stick in the back of my mind. One of the reasons I look at fullsize trucks, those F150's are fricken niiiiiiice. But at the end of the day not worth putting a huge dent in the bank account. We do ok, but certainly aren't rich...what little we have took a lot of skimping and saving.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Guess what I am trying to say is. In my area we have a ton of Semis and lifted Bro-Dozers with their bumpers at my head height. A new Tacoma isn't going to be all that much safer against those. Sure a side curtain airbag will get my head crushed a little less. Only way to be leaps and bounds safer is to buy a much much bigger truck than a new Tacoma. Cause I think you're effed either way against those big trucks.
You are arguing emotionally, not logically. Traffic fatalities per mile traveled has gone way down over the years despite that wide disparity in vehicle size and weight. You can make the argument that we're tinkering around the edges now since the majority of improvements have been made. So it may be fair to say that per dollar expended the return on safety is minimal. That's an economic or social science question.

1920px-USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT_mid.jpg

Actually it is a zero sum game, none of us get out alive.
Yes, death is inescapable. That's not the argument I made. We're talking about wrecks as a game of odds. For you to win doesn't mean someone has to lose. It's not a coin toss. Both drivers can be driving safer cars and survive when one or both may not have with different technology. I know that nothing is normalized and, no, I'm in no hurry to trade my truck for one with more than 2 airbags.

But I'm not arguing that my truck is as safe relatively as a 2019 would be in the same wreck. I know that there are potential improvements. I just don't find the marginal increase in that safety worth the money. It's a valuation question, everything we do is based on what we of perceive is it's value or worth. IOW, for the extra money I think we're hitting a diminishing return. I also value other things, such as simplicity, utility, cost different than someone who may have different risk factors. If I had kids I would value being there for them and to support them financially higher. I'd probably buy life insurance in that case, too.
 
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phsycle

Adventurer
Just yesterday I almost had a head-on with a 2nd Gen Tacoma...came around a blind corner, and some chick yakking on her cell phone was in my lane. Thank goodness I was paying attention, and swerved off the road to miss her. Of course she raised her hands like it is my fault. That whole no personal accountability thing I was talking about.

The safety and comfort does stick in the back of my mind. One of the reasons I look at fullsize trucks, those F150's are fricken niiiiiiice. But at the end of the day not worth putting a huge dent in the bank account. We do ok, but certainly aren't rich...what little we have took a lot of skimping and saving.

Well, so in that particular instance, it would've been much better had she been in a more modern vehicle with the nannies. I don't think 2nd Gens came with any of the lane departure/collision options. The idiot lady was going to talk on her phone anyway. At least the safety stuff would put a layer of buffer of safety (no matter how thick or thin). But nothing beats an attentive driver and human judgment. Which is the biggest obstacle facing full vehicle automation.

Yeah, use one of those "what would my money be worth if I had invested" calculators. Oof! Some things I wish I had invested than purchased instead!

But no regrets, really. As you say, "porch deaths" can happen. Find a good balance between saving for future, and living/enjoying life.
 

phsycle

Adventurer
Posting this here, because.....Clutch is out on his "lunch break" and wouldn't want a lull in this thread.

I was looking at various sliders. I happened upon a new set for sale locally, made by Shrockworks. Some local guy who bought but didn't use it. Good price, so I picked it up. All bolted up fine, but the front mounting point, there is a 3/4" gap. Should I just bend this to make fit? I'm guessing that would crack the powdercoat. So I may need to sand/touch it up with paint. I'm sure it'll get abused, so not super worried. What do you think?
 

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bkg

Explorer
Posting this here, because.....Clutch is out on his "lunch break" and wouldn't want a lull in this thread.

I was looking at various sliders. I happened upon a new set for sale locally, made by Shrockworks. Some local guy who bought but didn't use it. Good price, so I picked it up. All bolted up fine, but the front mounting point, there is a 3/4" gap. Should I just bend this to make fit? I'm guessing that would crack the powdercoat. So I may need to sand/touch it up with paint. I'm sure it'll get abused, so not super worried. What do you think?

Same issue on both sides?

This is going to sound like a dumb suggestion, but...

When I bought my first set of sliders in... 1997-ish. I had to bolt on the front mount first. If I did the middle and rear mounts, the front one didn't line up for some odd reason. I can't explain why - one bolted up front first, everything lined up just fine - but...maybe?
 

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