Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping

[SunTzuNephew]

well the first thing I noticed when I got my xd was the not legal in California sticker on the box haha. I have the five inch as I was told the four inch had jamming issues. I love mine and have not had issues with it. I love having 13 rounds of 45 goodness available.
I love the Kimber desert warrior, some might not like the color scheme.

Suntzu do you know what exactly has been causing the ad's? poor trigger awareness? Any faults on the serpa's locking mechanism? I have a serpa leg holster but have never had any issues/incidents. I am going to need a holster to carry my xd in though so I might have to try something different out.

Apparently the locking mechanism malfunctions, and prevents the gun from being drawn (a major fail in itself), and then in screwing around with it trying to pull it it can depress the trigger and cause an AD.

I saw this happen in one school: The fix to get it unjammed was to unload the mag, rack the slide if possible to unload the firearm, remove the guys belt and holster, and then the instructor and owner spent about 15 minutes with a multi tool and screwdriver undoing the locking mechanism and holster.....Didn't damage the gun too much...scratched it up some.

This may not be the most feasible tactical solution. I saw this happen in Iraq, too - the Serpa was very popular back in the day with the Army. We Men of Steel / Zoomies usually had either Bianchi M9's or Safariland 6004s. No AD's back then that I know of, but I don't know if it happened outside the wire.

 

[91runner]

Yeah when I was in Iraq everyone and their brother had a serpa. The not unlocking is a major no go, and not a risk I'd want to run on my everyday carry holster. I wonder if they have had a recall and if it has been an issue in all of the holsters or geared towards one particular model.

 

[john101477]

well the first thing I noticed when I got my xd was the not legal in California sticker on the box haha. I have the five inch as I was told the four inch had jamming issues. I love mine and have not had issues with it. I love having 13 rounds of 45 goodness available.
I love the Kimber desert warrior, some might not like the color scheme.

Suntzu do you know what exactly has been causing the ad's? poor trigger awareness? Any faults on the serpa's locking mechanism? I have a serpa leg holster but have never had any issues/incidents. I am going to need a holster to carry my xd in though so I might have to try something different out.

haha thats the tactical with the 5 inch barrel and your right is not legal in cali for some stupid reason. That is the first i had heard of jamming issues on the 4in. do you know what the cause is? the XD in 4in is very popular here.

Suntzu - thanks for the tip. I never heard of any AD with the serpa but now that I have heard it, better safe than sorry. looking at safari now thanks.

I prefer outside carry to conceal but if I am in town concealed is your only option here although I wish we had open carry like AZ.

Do you guys know anyone that has tried the safari for the PT145? not knowing how it locks down I would have to figure out how to adjust it for my pistol Vs the 24/7

 

[02TahoeMD]

I have relied upon a Safariland 6004 holster to carry my Glock 22 for 10 years of hard use in K9. I started out with the standard holster and then when we converted to carrying with the Streamlight TLR1 light we upgraded the holsters to the light equipped version. I highly recommend them, and they now are available with a dual retention system. There is no way the gun is coming out unless you draw it.

For off duty / training carry I use a Safariland 6378-832 which has a very natural retention mechanism that allows for an extremely quick draw. I loved it so much that I bought a 6378-52 for my Kimber that I carry off duty. I had carried Fobus holsters for years but now only use the Safarilands, since they have a great retention system and I find that I actually have a smoother presentation out of the Safariland ones.

Hadnt heard of the Serpa holster failures but I am glad I never bought them now that I know about it!

 

[maxama10]

IIRC (there was much discussion about this on arfcom) the NDs were from people negligently pulling the trigger after releasing the paddle and drawing their weapons.

In other words, their fingers slid from the paddle to their triggers as they drew their weapons.

Edit: what I could find
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=23&t=92447

 

[john101477]

That does not exactly discredit the serpa, but more the user.
After looking at the safariland 6004 though it appears to hold an attached light on the rail. which might make it the best over all for me. I suppose i will have to buy it to test it.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

That does not exactly discredit the serpa, but more the user.
After looking at the safariland 6004 though it appears to hold an attached light on the rail. which might make it the best over all for me. I suppose i will have to buy it to test it.

In a stressful situation, people don't need additional, built-in, and insidious failure points. The situation provides sufficient failure points.

Back when I was actually an aerospace engineer, I did a lot of human factors engineering on military aircraft - deciding that a switch, gauge or control should or shouldn't be in a particular place. For example, should a control to jettison the canopy be located near the canopy rail? If it was, could a sleeve catch on it and cause it to accidentally deploy? Or if we moved it, could it be reached in an emergency?

As with holsters: Simple is good, and designs that encourage (with good or bad operational habits) a critical failure are not a good design. While ultimately the responsibility for the safe and appropriate use of a firearm is dependent on the user, if we relied upon the user all the time we wouldn't need things like safeties at all.

 

[john101477]

Very true. your saying if in a stressed situation the serpa mechanism once depress and in draw motion the finger could easily be on the trigger instead of along the slide. That could lead to really bad stuff. I am trying to figure out how the 6004 works as it looks like it has a lot of mechanical parts on top. if anyone with a picture if the 6004 mechanism could post it would be a help.

 

[02TahoeMD]

Happy to help out. Here is a pic of the Safariland 6004 thumb strap. As you get your master grip, your thumb hits the ledge on the outer side of the strap and rotates the strap forward. That is it. Gun is free to draw.

Now, if you get the 6004 with the ALS (auto locking system) You will see the addition of another tab behind the hood. All you have to do is, after rotating the hood forward, your thumb sweeps this tab back as you draw.

When you reholster, the ALS locks the gun in the holster automatically and then you rotate the hood back in place. The hood "locks" and only will rotate forward with downward and forward motion of the thumb. It may not sound fast....but it is.

My Safariland 6378 series holsters have ONLY the ALS system for retention, there is no hood on the top. The draw on these holsters is smooth and I have zero complaints about it. My Fobus Kimber holster that I used for the past 2 years would actually "grab" the frame for some reason at random intervals and would slow my draw considerably as I had to put effort into the draw, thus prompting my search for a new holster.

Please also note, if you want to carry a tactical light mounted to the weapon you can get either the 6004 or the 6378. The 6004 style holster comes either in drop leg or regular gunbelt models, while the 6378 comes available as a paddle model with an optional belt slot attachment, and is pictured above.

Any other questions, just ask, glad to help if I can.

 

[john101477]

so it does not appear that the barrel length itself has anything to do with the locking and fit mechanism so the 6004 for the 24/7 should lock in the PT145. How does the 6378 lock the pistol in? It having only the ALS it kind of makes me wonder....

 

[bobDog]

Gee now we're talking cool stuff.....:sombrero:

 

[02TahoeMD]

More ALS stuff....

... How does the 6378 lock the pistol in? It having only the ALS it kind of makes me wonder....

You are correct, barrel length does not control the retention of the holster. The ALS system is attached to a piece of plastic that actually runs down the front of the inside of the holster. This plastic (which is very ruggedly built IMHO) has a tab on it that actually catches the ejection port on the gun - this piece of plastic does not go any deeper into the holster than the port, and when you swipe it with your thumb it instantly releases the gun. I checked the holsters for my Glock and Kimber and the retention tab is shaped differently for the specific gun. Now, I think Safariland could have gotten away with a generic all purpose tab but to see that they took the time to fit the retention tab to the specific gun speaks highly of the quality.

One of my co-workers shoots competitively and is, hands down, the fastest shooter I have ever seen in person. And the ALS holster is all he uses to carry his Glock in.

Here is a short video of the ALS holster in the field, though the shooter is not 100% familiar with how the system locks.

 

[teotwaki]

Gee now we're talking cool stuff.....:sombrero:

You are correcto-mundo Sir

:wings: :victory: :wings:

 

[Fireman78]

[QUOTE
Stress situations will rely on muscle memory, and IMO, when you're scared, your instinct is to have your finger on the trigger, ready to go.
[/QUOTE]


Uh.. ..no.

You are correct about bringing up "Muscle Memory". That is pounded into the heads if police recruits. However.. to say "Finger on the trigger, ready to go". We'll, I gotta call you out on that one. Driving muscle memory into someone is EXACTLY the reason a trained person with a weapon WON'T have there finger on the trigger. Your instict IS what you are taught, if done properly. It will be in the ready position, just like you are taught. Stressfull situations and muscle memory are another reason a police recruit/military warrior should use the palm of there weak hand, over the top of the slide, gripping "caveman style" to either clear a stoppage or re-load a round after inserting a new magazine. A properly trained warrior will never use the tiny little slide/thumb release button for any reason. Your fine motor skills are diminished in a stressfull situation, and larger, simpler less tactile moves are used. Again.. muscle memory.

 

[john101477]

Not so sure I care for the ALS lock but the strap lock might be worth it. I was looking at places to buy and the cheapest i found was $117. pretty substantial for a holster but I suppose it will be worth it. I also checked out some kydex hosters with adjustable retention but that kind of scare the hell out of me with carry in the woods and brush. the limited holster selection for the PT145 is pretty brutal. i have had the pistol for 2 months using is strictly at a local place i shoot at. Getting used to the short barrel compact has been the biggest obstacle. i am used to 5 1/2 to 7 inch barrels of single action revolvers CAS.