Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping

[SunTzuNephew]

How do you feel about this?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/6/1247

By all means, firearms should be kept out of the hands of young children.

I also don't like toy guns - water pistols and the like. Some of them are quite realistic (I actually carried one as my 'sidearm' during National Guard annual training one year - rather than risk losing it) and asking an 8 year old kid to discriminate between real and fake is unreasonable (but then, thats the kind of nonsense we've come to expect from Dr. Kellerman). Imagine, locking up a couple of kids in a room with drawers, with who knows what other stimulation for 15 minutes and guess what will happen? What would happen in a room with a TV or playstation, books, toys, magazines? Or, if the kids were alone? But, Dr. Kellerman is known for stacking the deck.

On the other hand, 'safely' locking up firearms can result in tragedy: Google Jessica Carpenter and Merced - a 14 year old girl that had been trained to safely handle firearms. She was responsible for her siblings while the parents were away, and the family firearms were legally, and safely locked up.

A pitchfork-wielding mutant broke in after cutting the phone lines, and proceeded to start stabbing the kids in their beds. Jessica tried to call 9-1-1, the statist clown's answer for this situation, but the lines were cut. She tried to get to the families guns, but they were locked up in accordance with California's laws. She ran next door and asked the neighbor not to call 9-1-1 (since her siblings were ALREADY being killed), she asked that the neighbor get HIS gun and kill the guy.

After all, when you have only seconds to live, dial 9-1-1: The police are only MINUTES away.

William and Ashley Carpenter were dead. Anna was wounded, but survived.

The State of California put Mr. Carpenter into an untenable situation. He could leave the tools available for his qualified family members to defend themselves and each other....or he could go to jail. Thanks to the California legislators desire to prevent people from defending themselves.

I wonder how Mr. Carpenter feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

 

[Klierslc]

Glad we can keep this a pretty good conversation so far.



I never understand that argument. How can one possibly argue the case of defensive gun ownership, when so many other industrialized countries with more gun control have so much lower crime rates? Are we instead defending ourselves with our SnoCone Machines?

It would be almost impossible to argue this. For every instance where you may feel you used a gun defensively, another person may have simply turned and walked away. Again, I get back to root crime statistics.

I agree, a good discussion.

Part of being a responsible gun owner and CHL holder is the responsibility to de-escalate a situation if possible. Using deadly force is a last resort.

Crime rates in many of the "unarmed" countries are quite a bit higher than the US....http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

I think we are treading on the political side here. I am not trying to talk policy, I am talking about an individual decision. As stated above, Regardless of how low your crime rates, crime does happen. You have to make a decision. If it happens to you and yours, will you be equipped as well as possible to neutralize a threat, or will you stand by bleating like a sheep, powerless to protect your loved ones?

I am not sensationalizing things here. This happens to people more often than it should. Again, it has to happen to somebody....

 

[SunTzuNephew]

Yeah, handguns are not an option to me. IF I bought a gun, it would like be an 870 as recommended by an LEO friend. In the house, it would be locked in a safe. In the truck, it would be locked in a safe. In both cases, it wouldn't be readily available in times of crisis. On a hike, am I really going to walk through the woods with a shotgun over my shoulder? Not likely.

Can you really handle a handgun, one handed, that would have any hope of stopping a bear? I fired a S&W 500 once, not something I'd want to try one-handed. The other was a Glock 10mm. Not sure I'd want to try that either.

I was accurate at 75 feet, 12 out of 13, taking my time. Am I going to be accurate against a running bear? With fear, etc. in my veins? Not likely. It won't take long for a bear to cover 75 feet.

So we're back to the shotgun.

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who's a hunter. He said you aren't likely to stop a bear with a shotgun anyway. They have too much "Will to live". Unless you have slugs loaded, and take out it's shoulder blade, it'll just keep coming, and now it's REALLY mad. He has guns, and hunts, and said if he was attacked by a bear, he'd rather have pepper spray.

If you train to stop bears with a handgun, you can stop bears with a handgun. I used to carry (and practice every 2 weeks) with a Glock 20 in 10mm... I even took it to shooting schools to use. I could clear my holster, engage 3 different targets with 3 rounds each (and reloading) while moving and performing a threat analysis on which of the 3 targets was the greatest immediate threat, in under 4 seconds.

These days I carry a .45ACP Glock 30 (usually). The ammo is WAY cheaper, and adequate for defense against 2-legged mutants; when I'm some place with 4-legged violent critters I carry something considerably more powerful than a handgun. Handguns are useful only to fight to your long guns, as the saying goes and if I plan on attending a gunfight I either dress for it (with a long gun) or go elsewhere (more likely).

Like any tool, practice is good.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

I know the conclusion of the stats are obvious. The point of bringing it up is that the oft-sited reason for carrying a weapon is for protection. In particular, many people say they want to protect their family. The stats bring it into stark reality that having a gun in one's home greatly increases the risk of death by accidental gunshot.

In 1999, 3385 children were killed by guns. 489 in the age group 0-14. According to Wiki, 20.2% of the American population is in this age group, or 56.8 million kids. So the death rate by gun is 0.86 deaths per 100,000 children. The referenced study shows that gun deaths in other countries (with presumably lower gun ownership) is 12 times lower, so presumably 0.07 deaths per 100,000. 448 kids per year could be saved if gun ownership were reduced. On average, only 2-3 people per year (not just kids!) die from bear attacks. That's only about 0.0001/100,000. So you've increased the chance of accidental shooting death by 0.79/100,000, in order to reduce the odds of a bear attack by 0.0001? I know this doesn't get into the discussion about human attacks but I don't even know where to begin with those numbers. I guess I could just trot out the obvious crime rates in the US vs. other countries.

I don't protect my family by having a gun. I protect them by not having a gun.

This is very interesting... this discussion has actually swung me back the other way. I will probably just stick to bear spray. And it works on people too.

http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html

Yeah, thats the first bad study that Kellerman did. He stacked the deck there too - comparing slums in Seattle (poor, criminal elements, lack of education) with very nice neighborhoods in Vancouver.

He eventually had to 'adjust' his data, at first he made some claim about 30-40 times greater.

Thats why Kellerman isn't particularly credible.

Ten Myths of Gun Control

 

[modelbuilder]

I love guns so much I think we should arm every newborn infant.



.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

When you look at the very young curious ones, the numbers are much, much different.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/levittpoolsvsguns.php

Here's the intro: What's more dangerous: a swimming pool or a gun? When it comes to children, there is no comparison: a swimming pool is 100 times more deadly.

So are 5 gallon buckets. More little kids drown in them then are killed by firearms.

 

[kjp1969]

I don't know that much about guns. I do know my buddie's Glock had no absolute safeties. He showed me all the features such that it could never fire unless the trigger was actually pulled, but if you pulled the trigger, it always fired. I was really surprised by that. The ease of a possible accident cause by kids messing around is scary, even if the gun is on you.

You'll never find a gun that has an "absolute safety," whatever that is. I happen to like Glocks and revolvers because there is only one rule: Trigger = bang, No Trigger = no bang.

If you're going to own a gun you have to embrace the fact that you are the only safety that matters. If there are "kids messing around," with your guns, you've screwed something up big time.

 

[Lost Canadian]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

Waterton is beautiful, I've been there a couple of times, and seen the recently posted bear warnings. Strap on a little bell and they stay away from you because they know you are coming.

I'm never going to own a gun of any sort, having only one good hand prevents me from using 99% of the firearms out there properly, or safely. I usually have my little 4" long camping knife on my belt, but it's more for whittlin' than anything else.

Don't go camping in Churchill, then

"Most people have a shotgun with them when they go out because you just never know," Ms. Wokes said. "It's just a fact of life here. Most people don't lock their doors because you never know when someone might need a place to run into."

 

[kjp1969]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

Very well put, sir.

 

[bobDog]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

That gray matter is usually what the crazies aim for!:sombrero:

 

[Root Moose]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

The other reality is that we likely have a lot less scared white guys with guns running around in the woods so there is less need for them up here.

I carry a gun when I intend to kill something. That's pretty much it.

 

[pint]

I've never been a gun owner until a couple years ago. When in the back country of CO I'm always weary of bears, mountain lions, etc. However, as has been mentioned, it's the 2 legged kind that usually cause the problems. 3 or 4 years ago my wife, 3 kids and I were primitive camping in the middle of nowhere...6-7 miles from anyone. About 11:30 at night after the kids were in bed this Jeep with monster tires, about 8 bright lights and tunes cranked comes flying up the trail towards camp. My wife and I were enjoying the peace and quiet, the stars and a nice fire. The Jeep rolls into our camp and out jump these 2 ********** hillbillies just drunk *** h#ll. They start giving us a hard time, asking us what we were doing out here all alone, circling around us with beers in hand telling my wife she had a nice @ss, etc. I had no real weapon...a shovel, an axe, but no real weapon. I felt helpless and really thought they were going to do something stupid that I might not be able to prevent. My kids woke up due to the noise and one guy told them to shut up. I noticed one of them had a large Rambo knife on his belt and the other had a holster that looked like a pistol However, it was dark and I wasn't asking questions. After about 10 minutes another truck was coming in the distance. They quickly jumped in their rig and took off never to be seen again. I didn't sleep a wink all night! The next week I bought a Glock 21 .45 caliber. I never go into the back country without it now. There is no way I will ever feel as helpless to defend my family as I did that night...hopefully I'll never need to use it.

 

[Klierslc]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

FYI, fear has very little to do with it. As I stated before, it is in a gun owner's best interests to de-escalate a situation so he doesn't have to use a gun. However, when you get to the end of your go/no go chart, you will be left with an angry criminal who wants to kill you for trying to talk his ear off. I am left with a very polite criminal who will do what I say.

 

[bobDog]

The other reality is that we likely have a lot less scared white guys with guns running around in the woods so there is less need for them up here.

I carry a gun when I intend to kill something. That's pretty much it.

Hmmmmm......I never carry a handgun w/ the intent to kill.....but the day I do need to defend myself and others, and there is nothing in the small of my back will a sad day indeed. Sorry but I carry as a precaution. You carry a 1st aid kit but you don't plan on getting hurt, right?