Don't flame... BUT is the Wrangler the new Defender for the U.S. ???

Every now and then these threads popup (even tho I am not sure the OP meant as such) whereby brand loyalists each argue their brand is better. Here is my quote that I often say

"People who wheel respect people who wheel regardless of what vehicle they have chosen for their own requirements"

That being said I drive a jeep jkU with my specific requirements I wish I could have gotten something that is more than a 1/4 ton truck for what I am doing with it but I paid 21,500 for it and it is a base model with manual transmission, manual windows and manual doorlocks this was what I wanted. I replaced the suspension with Progressive rate coils and this coming weekend I am doing a beefier rear sway bar (moving from a .5" sway bar to a .875")

If LR decides to start marketing to the offroading community with a new defender so they can refresh their Bona FIdes that would be wonderful however in the last several years they seem to be shooting for the wannabe grey poupon crowd more with the vehicles they are pushing, simply put a multi-millionaire NBA star in Miami or a hedgefund operator in NYC does not care nor wants a vehicle that can carry a full kit of equipment to kathmandu he is more interested in getting 20 inch wheels on it and finding some of those black rubber band tires stretched around them.
 

matthewp

Combat Truck Monkey
I have no bone to pick in this argument as I dearly love both the Defender and the JK. What I do find in arguments like this, is that many consumers do NOT know what production vehicles are capable of in regards to their wants. We here at Expo find ourselves as the "1%ers" of the camping/adventure community. We have done the research to truly know what we want/need in an off-road vehicle. As a result, manufacturers are dealing with a balance between providing to the masses what they think they need (profit) vs. federal compliance (cost). Unfortunately, we 1%ers fall to the wayside because we do not comprise a big enough audience (lack of profit) to make the items we want in a vehicle worth the cost of engineering the vehicle to make our wants/needs meet federal compliance.

My answer to the OP would be "yes," but only by the default that the JK is the last remaining vehicle to meet anything near our "true" overlanding needs/wants BUT the caveat is the JK may soon be moving away from its current capabilities due to profit vs. cost considerations by the manufacturer. I have a strong inclination that by 2018, there will be no purist overlander in the NA market anyway, and the whole question posed by the OP will be moot.
 

greynolds

Observer
I have no bone to pick in this argument as I dearly love both the Defender and the JK. What I do find in arguments like this, is that many consumers do NOT know what production vehicles are capable of in regards to their wants. We here at Expo find ourselves as the "1%ers" of the camping/adventure community. We have done the research to truly know what we want/need in an off-road vehicle. As a result, manufacturers are dealing with a balance between providing to the masses what they think they need (profit) vs. federal compliance (cost). Unfortunately, we 1%ers fall to the wayside because we do not comprise a big enough audience (lack of profit) to make the items we want in a vehicle worth the cost of engineering the vehicle to make our wants/needs meet federal compliance.

My answer to the OP would be "yes," but only by the default that the JK is the last remaining vehicle to meet anything near our "true" overlanding needs/wants BUT the caveat is the JK may soon be moving away from its current capabilities due to profit vs. cost considerations by the manufacturer. I have a strong inclination that by 2018, there will be no purist overlander in the NA market anyway, and the whole question posed by the OP will be moot.
Unless you're just ignoring it because of the MSRP, the G-Wagon is another option. The JK is obviously the most affordable option though. :)
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
The other part of the equation that we are missing is that there is likely to be more than one "Defender" model. It is possible that they would come out with something cheap... but you probably wouldnt like it. "Defender Sport". Think Freelander SE3 redux meets Suzuki Sidekick meets leather interior and infotainment.

LN_95586_5.jpg
 

matthewp

Combat Truck Monkey
Unless you're just ignoring it because of the MSRP, the G-Wagon is another option. The JK is obviously the most affordable option though. :)

I didn't even think of that (basically since it doesn't seem to be a part of this conversation). Thank you for adding it!
 

zelatore

Explorer
Here in the US, basically, a decent selling vehicle has to have a 5 star crash rating (because that means a lot to people), have good power and comfort on the interstates. Oh and reliable. We can't stand a car that isn't reliable and flag it as a POS. On the interstate, it better be able to do 75 mph with power on tap.

We don't have anywhere you can spend 4 days without seeing pavement (ok maybe, but you actually gotta work hard at it). People REALLY just want a car to look cool when they are at the pay-campsites. I saw it out west. Here we are, in a whatever little car and this guy pulls up. He takes out a camera and video records himself opening his RTT, unloading all his gear, setting up his stuff, etc. BTW I don't think that SUV ever saw dirt however he had enough crap to support the crossing of the Sahara. Despite the fact that we don't live within 4,000 miles of the Sahara (btw I google mapped the Sahara from Atlanta, GA, its like, 4,300 miles) and this guy won't ever go there. Especially not with this truck.

That is where the Jeep JKU (4 door) comes in. It looks the part and heck, it can PLAY the part if you know what you are doing behind the wheel. But the bottom line is that most people are going to drive their jeep back and forth to work. Or take the kids somewhere. Or whatever. THAT IS IT. Around here, they might go down to Daytona Beach for beach driving, but that is it or feel secure about being in their vehicle when it snows or on the occasional gravel road. BTW my sedan is a champion on most FS roads here in GA (because they are all graded and most of them are gravel).

Jeep also played up on the "its a jeep, go exploring" theme that is so embedded in our culture. I'm sure ya'll have it in Australia but here, the image of a CJ-7 with no top or doors out on a farm dirt road is like, Maximum American. So jeep plays on that and boom, you sell 54906873054349087854098354x jeeps. The 4 door is needed so now its a family car. During the last recession, people got rid of their toys. No longer do people have a 1 ton pickup with a trailer to tow their rock buggy. Now they just build a 4 door jeep and deal with not hitting the hardest trails.

I have nothing against the new jeeps (except that the auto trans trucks just randomly catch fire, I don't like that) but they are bought, built, and then never used.

To address a few points:
5-star safety rating. Really? I honestly never heard that come up in this conversation before and have never looked at the 'safety rating' of any vehicle I've so much as thought about purchasing. The only people I've ever even heard mention it as a shopping criteria were new parents, generally when shopping for a minivan.

Good power/75mph on the interstates w/power on tap. Well yes. And I don't think that's too much to ask. You live in the east where things are close together, but I'm sure you've traveled as well. Not everybody is 2 hours from an off-road park. I live in the west where I might spend 8-12 hours on the interstate to get to my destination. Death Valley, Moab, anywhere in the southwest - that's a long haul from Sacramento and here in America we don't typically have weeks and weeks of vacation time to spend a week just getting there even if we wanted to. So yes, being able to safely and easily drive the speed limit (or above) shouldn't be too much of an ask.

Reliable. Again, yes. Do you think I'm being unreasonable in asking for this? I'm not terribly put off by inconveniencing things like a window that sticks or radio that doesn't work correctly (both things that have happened recently to new German and Japanese vehicles I've owned) and I'm pretty handy with a wrench (not that a wrench does much good in this day of computer controlled vehicles). But the thing needs to start and go every time I turn the key. Again, am I somehow less of a man because I expect a new vehicle to be reliable?

Jeeps are never used. Hmmmm....maybe out there in the east, where you don't have the open land we do in the west. I mean, 'Jeep Beach'? Isn't that just a bunch of Bro's cruising the (sand) strip? I live a couple hours from the start of the Rubicon. Go up there any weekend-or any weekday for that matter-and you'll find plenty of Jeeps being used. Last month Cal4wd put on their umpteenth-annual Sierra Trek based primarily around running Fordyce but with plenty of easier runs over the weekend as well. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of Jeeps I saw being used then either. For that matter, just head up into the Sierras any given weekend and you'll find Jeeps being used.

Ah, but that's the key - the weekend. You see, you are correct that here in the US we don't often do the multi-week 'overlanding' adventure. It's much more common - even on this forum - to see 2 or 3 day wheeling/camping trips. As mentioned, we don't get the weeks of vacation our European and Aussi friends do so it's harder for us to fit those grandious trips in. But that in no way doesn't mean our vehicles aren't used, they're just used in shorter durations.

So where does that leave us re: the next Defender?
We all know 'overlanding' is quite the rage right now, even if few people actually do it. Much as Jeep capitalizes on the image of the Wrangler taking on the Rubicon (which we know most buyers won't do) I think Land Rover could capitalize on the popularity of the overlanding craze in their marketing of the new Defender. Heck, it's the original overlanding vehicle. But knowing that few of us actually use the trucks that way let's sacrifice a little of the bare bones utility for a little more comfort and power. Keep to the basics - outstanding off-road performance, moderate creature comforts, reasonable on-road comfort, good payload, handsome 'timeless' looks that trade on the original. It doesn't need 400 hp, but it should be able to cruise the interstates without being foot to the floor. It doesn't need leather 12-way adjustable heated power seats and multi-zone climate control, but power windows won't break the bank. Give us good size off-road biased tires (I believe the base tire on a Rubicon is a 32" KM/2?). Make it easy for us to customize it to our needs. You get the idea.

It's already been said Jeep has cornered the market on sub-$50K off-roaders. I don't expect the new Rover to compete head to head with the Wrangler, but I do think the bottom end of the new Defender should overlap the upper end of the Jeep. Price it to start somewhere around $40K. Figure $50K for a reasonably equipped model. $65-75K for a loaded to the hilt take no prisoners version. Throw a few TV commercials up showing it on some 'epic overland adventure' and cash in! Not only do I think it would sell in the US, but I think it would help bolster the image and sales of the whole brand.

Of course, this is a North American biased viewpoint as I live here. But that same basic vehicle can be de-contented and sold at a lower price point in other markets as well so I'm not totally ignoring the rest of the world.
 

optimusprime

Proffessional daydreamer.
That is because you are using them for their intended purpose.

Here in the US, basically, a decent selling vehicle has to have a 5 star crash rating (because that means a lot to people), have good power and comfort on the interstates. Oh and reliable. We can't stand a car that isn't reliable and flag it as a POS. On the interstate, it better be able to do 75 mph with power on tap.

We don't have anywhere you can spend 4 days without seeing pavement (ok maybe, but you actually gotta work hard at it). People REALLY just want a car to look cool when they are at the pay-campsites. I saw it out west. Here we are, in a whatever little car and this guy pulls up. He takes out a camera and video records himself opening his RTT, unloading all his gear, setting up his stuff, etc. BTW I don't think that SUV ever saw dirt however he had enough crap to support the crossing of the Sahara. Despite the fact that we don't live within 4,000 miles of the Sahara (btw I google mapped the Sahara from Atlanta, GA, its like, 4,300 miles) and this guy won't ever go there. Especially not with this truck.

That is where the Jeep JKU (4 door) comes in. It looks the part and heck, it can PLAY the part if you know what you are doing behind the wheel. But the bottom line is that most people are going to drive their jeep back and forth to work. Or take the kids somewhere. Or whatever. THAT IS IT. Around here, they might go down to Daytona Beach for beach driving, but that is it or feel secure about being in their vehicle when it snows or on the occasional gravel road. BTW my sedan is a champion on most FS roads here in GA (because they are all graded and most of them are gravel).

d.

Change that to a Defender 90 and that will apply over here as well.
 

optimusprime

Proffessional daydreamer.
I tell you what, how about in 5 years I'll bring a Tdi130 over, drive it for 6 months around Western US's back country, then sell it to help cover the cost of the trip. It will be 25 years old by then and up for sale.


To be honest I'm a bit lost in this thread. I cant speak about Jeeps I don't know anything about them apart from the look small.
But last year myself and 5 mates took our families in our Defenders across the Madigan line in the central Simpson Desert here in Aus. 11 days to cross to 1200 dunes, all vehicles at GVM or more. Max speed was 9 mile/h with most of the day being cross axe-led articulation. This was after we crossed the lower Simpson for 4 days, another 1200 dunes. Before that we travelled hundred of miles on corrugated dirt reads to get to the edge of the desert, and before that did 1000's of miles on the black top to reach the edge of the dirt. All our Defenders did it with ease, comfort, and without fail. We all find the up right seating very comfortable. After a day behind the wheel it's easy to hop out and collect firewood, set up camp, walk a hill or dune for a photo. We all hauled 180 to 200lt of fuel, 150 to 200lt of water, 2 spare tyres, enough spares to rebuild a car almost, 2 adults and 2 kids in each car, one with 3. Plus all the camping gear and food to make it all work. The Defender is basic, somewhat old and tatty in todays mod cons of bells and whistles. It's slow but can climb a tree, it's noisy but you can hose it out, and it does exactly what it was design to do; drive over all types of terrain, loaded to the hilt, with reasonably good comfort, and be possible to fix it if you have to. Not everyones flavour, bit it does do what it was made for very well. It will be a shame to see it go. And very sad for you lot not to have them easily accessed.

I drive my Tdci 130 daily as a work car, seems alright to me. My little 2.4 only produces 120KW, and 460Nm of talk after a tune. The gears make it slow and agricultural. I reverse park it a bit as it has quite a big turning circle with the live axel. But I still prefer to drive it to the local store over the wifes little car. It just puts a smile on my face for being nothing more than a simple Defender. Sorry if I've added nothing. But other Defender drivers will know exactly what I am talking about. Big wave to you.

First off ...highly jealous
Secondly .. I concur with the smile factor,I definitely know what you're saying!
 

roverandom

Adventurer
Because that is less than 1% of the buying population's idea of a great Defender.

Most would say, I want 4 zone climate control, leather seats, enough legroom to stretch out, room for 3 car seats in back, easy to get in and out of, has to do 95mph on the highway on rails to keep up with traffic, great audio system for pumping bro tunes, etc.

Probably the only thing I would guarantee you about the new Defender is that it will be launched in AA Yellow

Is this not why we have the Range Rover, Discovery and Freelander models?

The Defender and Series units that came before are a work truck. That is why they were so good.

Am I the only one that thinks a $50,000 starting point for a work truck is stupid? If it has to cost 50K to make a profit they may as well not bother. They won't sell enough of them.
 
at expo in 2013

I was there with my 08 jku 4dr and there were a bunch of defenders there too. One think I noticed in the driving terrain classes the defender couldn't make really sharp turns The turning radius at least on the 90 sucked. Is this common to all defenders. I really a good 4x4 any kind. not picky LC disco jeep you name it I am sucker for it and just curious about that observation
 

Kmrtnsn

Explorer
I would say that LR has cornered itself with a huge problem. Whereas Jeep has modified and upgraded its signature vehicle over time, upgrading suspensions, adapting to newer safety regulations, and fuel usage and emissions limitations, etc., LR in the last 30 years has not made any significant changes to its signature product. 30 years of sitting on their collective asses leaves them in a developmental pickle, as they are forced to do a scratch design, in a new harsh environment and ever fickle market. Who is the primary market for this new design and new LRs anyway? The military light vehicle market? The agricultural market? The export market? Or the nouveau riche, bling-bling, vehicles as an accessory crowd, who at least on my roads appear to be LR's principle target demographic as that is who appears to be buying them. The problem LR has created now is how to replace an icon, without losing the core new vehicle sales (LR doesn't care who buys old ones) market of that icon, or if they do abandon that market, how to target the replacement to a new and different market segment. To that end, they'll just be trading on a name and whatever the vehicle turns out to be, its off-road prowess isn't going to matter. I think with the capitalization of new tooling and the inclusion of required safety and emission equipment, there is no way in hell the Defender replacement is going to cost the same or less than the outgoing model. I think that what ever they roll out will have a much smaller number of available configurations, no COE, No pick-up, probably just a three-door and a five-door, as I doubt they can generate as many variations in a new, independent suspensioned, air-bagged, safety bumper/hood equipped product, as they would have to compete for sales with cheaper, imported adversaries for those sales to which they can no longer compete. I would even venture that LR is in such a marketing/development pickle with the Defender replacement that it might be cheaper for Tata to just move assembly of the the Defender to India for third world sales and abandon the Defender replacement all together, consolidating the LD product line.

Now Fiat on the other hand should take the JK/JKU/J-8 lines when the new model rolls out and move production out of the U.S. and use it as the basis of a third-world/military light vehicle platform for international sales and steal what remains of that market from LR, under the Fiat/Iveco banner.
 
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David Harris

Expedition Leader
One think I noticed in the driving terrain classes the defender couldn't make really sharp turns The turning radius at least on the 90 sucked. Is this common to all defenders.

Turning radius depends a lot on the width of the tires installed. With the factory skinnies they turn pretty sharply. If you install wide tires, as many do then you have to turn the steering stops down and that limits the turning radius more and more.
 

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