Evoque: I have seen the future of Land Rover ...

[LtFuzz]

The analogy that I can't help but make on what is happening in Land Rover, is what happened to Banana Republic. In the mid 80's I was living in LA and spending every weekend home from boarding school out in the Mojave deep in the desert in my CJ. Most of my outdoor clothes were Abercrombe and Fitch, but their quality was diminishing and their clothes would not hold up to desert scrub. Low and behold Banana Republic opens a store in Beverly Hills and that place spoke to me. The store had a wall themed with jungle plants and half an elephant statue sticking out. There was a military WWII jeep in the middle of the store with clothes on it, and a piper cub airplane hanging from the ceiling. The store was privately owned by the founders, and much of it was military clothing and apparel from around the world. the store's catalogues where written in the theme of a hand written travel journel, with each item's page denoting the journey where they found the item (e.g. in a market in Tibit). I still have an entire collection of those catalogues. I can't let go of them. I thought I hit the motherload; a store that I could totally connect with that emulated my personality and lifestyle! All their clothing was rugged, with thick quality eqyptian cottons, duck cotton and leather. They could hold up to desert brush and became my new favorite wear for spending days in the desert.

Excellent analogy, overlander. I know exactly what you mean about BR. I have a good friend in the fashion industry that still speaks fondly of the old BR lines. I have a shirt I got from my dad that looks like something you'd find on a soldier in Rommel's Afrika Corps. To this day it nearly stands up on its own the construction is so solid. Even the lapels are double stitched.

 

[LtFuzz]

It takes a bunch of Liberties and Grand Cherokees to keep the Wrangler alive and as a focus-built product.

Where's our focus-built product?

We're just the cash cow.

 

[cdm]

Contemplate this... for less than $70K a 200-series Land Cruiser. Duh...

and thats why LR lost the market worldwide to toyota.

 

[cdm]

Check out the Evoque being prepared for this year's Dakar. How you like me now?

fantastic suspension flex is obvious.

in reality, by the time you are done modding a vehicle for dakar/wrc you can turn a veyron into a hillclimber. nothing in common with the street version. so few people are able to figure this out though

 

[Rovertrader]

not being a clothes hound- as most of you know;-) I still do have several Willis and Geiger shirts from waaaay past- original supplier to Teddy Roosevelt!! Eventually bought up by a modern company, and quickly extinct.
BMW and Ford bought LR for their offroad insight, and gleaned valuable knowledge- and also provided some much missing modern technology for assembly, etc. Then comes Tata who buys LR for their premium brand status. Hence, I feel their comment from some years back stating they perceive LR to be a Bentley competitor in the near future is about to come to true.
Lastly, the rumor from the 'insiders' was that the JK saved Jeep which in turn saved Chrysler which in turn made it attractive for Fiat to save the whole bunch. The difference being the realization of the faithful, but bigger still is the effect the four door had on attracting a whole new influx of customers. The point being, the JK is most likely the most versatile vehicle made today. They have the room and comfort for the soccer mom who refuses the minivan, upscale models for the execs, and offroad prowness for 'us'!! Heck, their is even a video of the AEV Hemi doing track time and it is absolutely amazing... So, why can Jeep do so much with the broadened appeal of the JK, and LR has contended it isn't even able, aka worth, fitting airbags to the Defender since 1997?!
Sadly, it comes down to management and choice of direction. Defenders are still handbuilt, and it shows but also adds to their mystique and character. Americans tire easy of mystique, and want reliability- aka, the 'easy way', sadly. The maintenance is key to LR ownership, and is all but absent in today's world on most brands. I just a month ago flew to Ca to retrieve a '91 Suburban, and drove her home 3k miles w/o issue or worry w/ 120k on the clock. Two weeks ago I retrieved a '97 LR XD from a nonRover owner in Minn, 100k on the clock, driving 1k miles and fretted all the way home, knowing of oil line fires, all the lights on on the dash, etc. and I know a bit about LRs... I think the Tata LR is somewhat glad to rid themselves of the Defender and it's dark ages status, and leapfrog the model into modern times, upping the 'standard' of the entire brand. But alas, just another multi vehicle LR owner for almost 20 years strongly considering to become a LR nonowner. It is scarey how a 20 year old Suburban is so similar to an old Defender, and so different at the same time!! And I hear the JK has the steering wheel centered on the driver- check out your Defender sometime ;-)

 

[Dendy Jarrett]

Just for a point of clarification- (and Dale can attest to this)- he and I have been back and forth about this- as we discussed this very issue starting two years ago as the Rubicon started looking more and more attractive. But I was always the one that argued in favor of LR. (Dale- I am sorry I was confrontational about it!)
My blood has run green for 15 years or more (have you checked my screen name!)- BUT, I go back and pull out old Land Rover literature, and magazines that LR put out in limited runs (I have them all!), and realize that Land Rover built the brand on "what it was"- not on "what it is becoming". They sold the company- that wasn't doing well- not because it wasn't a good product but because there were quality control issues- and cash mis-management.
As is typical with a new owner- no careful analysis has been done to identify the market. I know this because I am friends with several centre managers, and I hear their frustrations. Heck, just at the Evoque event, there were marketing folks there all dressed in their slick coats, and yuppy dress shoes and ties. Nothing like prior events where they were dressed in safari gear.
As it is, the last two Land Rover dealers I considered Roveresque were Roaring Fork, and Land Rover Nashville. Now, Roaring fork has shed all recognition as the dealerships we all know- and it is all sleek inside now- sales guides are no more- they are salesmen- and wear starched oxfords. Land Rover Nashville, has been mandated to shed all vintage camping gear, natural wood, and slate floors, and to replace with greys and whites by the end of 3rd quarter of 2012 or face loosing the franchise- (they have been hold-outs). So it is becoming apparent that I am in love with a dinosaur! I love what Land Rover 'was' - not what it 'is'.
To that point- IF I were in the market for a Mom-mobile- the ONLY thing that would attract me to the Evoque would be the simple "mine is better than yours" notion of the Marque Land Rover on the hood, as truly in these economic times- if folks did their homework- they could buy a 2012 Ford Explorer and have essentially the exact same car (cept the ford has an electronic steering wheel adjuster - and the evoque is a manual lever - go figure) for half the price. It even has the exact same off-road selector in it — and be supporting a US car company- one that didn't take a bail out! (you could say that for LR when they were owned by Ford!)- yet I digress.
When I picked up all the literature at the dealership the other night for the LR4, Evoque and full body Rangie, you see a couple of pictures of the Land Rover with a kayak on top of it, or bikes (same for the Ford Explorer), but gone are the images of the completely tricked out LR4 with snorkel, roof rack, rear ladder - etc. Instead, most of the pictures are of the truck in metro settings. Flip-side- Downloaded the Jeep Wrangler brochure- and there are NO urban images in their 2012 brochure! It is all about adventure, and off-road fun.
So, why are they sticking with the name? Land Rover - Why not Street Rover, or Black top rover. Or instead of Range Rover- how about Metro Rover?
Think about it.

I guess (like Zimm's thread under fireside chat)- I am getting old or something. I just want a truck that can take me where I want to go with a sense of adventure- that I don't have to wrench on all week before and after going, will get me there without that sense of "what the heck was the noise!" white knuckle feeling I drive with. And feel like I can purchase it turn key. I guess that Is why I am spending more and more time on AEV's site looking at 4 door Rubicons!

 

[jpc1818]

In this case its sad that the "progression" that LR is undergoing is for $$$, nothing else. The styling of the defender, series, discovery and RR is awesome, without question.
Jeep knows that they have a good thing, thats why their new/old vehicles look the same. However, unfortunately for us, there are more soccer moms out there.
LR has sold out in order to move more units rather than keep their brand, heart and soul.
The good thing is that our older LR's should continue to appreciate in both value and use.
Just my .02...

 

[Rocket Ship]

Interesting the comments about Banana Republic. Up here in Canada, I never knew them as anything BUT a metrosexual mass-market clothing company. Same with EB, A&F, etc.

I think the idea that Liberty and Cherokee sales pay for the JK is incorrect. I'm pretty sure the JK pays for itself pretty handsomely.

As for the gangster windows, I think that actually has a lot to with engineering and safety. The less glass you have, the easier it is to pass roof crush, side impact, and have a structurally stiff body. That's also why A pillars are getting so thick. As we all know, the Defender was pretty bad in rollovers. With large glass, think, vertical pillars, etc, it was the antithesis of modern designs.

Again, these factors are why all cars look the same today. It's the automotive equivalent of shark and dolphin evolution. Two completely divergent evolutionary paths result in animals that look very similar due to a tight set of environmental requirements. In the automotive world, as more and more requirements are placed on them, there become fewer free design choices.

 

[Antichrist]

As for the gangster windows, I think that actually has a lot to with engineering and safety. The less glass you have, the easier it is to pass roof crush, side impact, and have a structurally stiff body.

And the more likely you are to need it, since you can't see what's around you.

 

[Dendy Jarrett]

Yeah, while the Evoque was being previewed the other night- while sitting in the backseat, someone else got in the front seat. The comment was made by them - that instead of the usual Land Rover Greenhouse effect, ... that it felt more like the "bathtub" effect!!

D

 

[VanIsle_Greg]

Metro Rover... awesome.

VERY interesting thread. I am a Jeep owner, and would love to spring for a 2012 JK with the new Pentastar V6, but my bank account is more 2000 Cherokee Classic. Hence what takes up my driveway. Jeep has done very well keeping their target market happy...and in some cases maintaining a whole vehicle segment that everyone else seems to have dropped. Lucky for Jeep/Chrysler! Surprisingly even the wee little Patriot is a capable offroad vehicle when driven by someone who knows what they are doing (and it is the AWD model).

I have always been a LR fan, ever since I was a kid. I love the utilitarian hard core offroad vehicles of yesteryear and the LR Challenge etc. I was not surprised to see things change under Ford, I think a lot of it was for the good, but with the good comes the bad. The new LR is made for the people who will buy it, very targeted and in my opinion, not that bad. Would I buy one, not likely...I too would opt for the cheaper Explorer and get mostly the same vehicle. Much like the Infinity QX4 vs. the Pathfinder. Pay $20K more for different badges/grille/wheels, no thanks. Or as stated I would opt for a JK Rubicon with the full load, nav etc. Nothing like electrically operated sway bar disconnects!

I digress...

LR has gone the way of the all mighty dollar. Will we see another uber capable offroad icon from LR in the future, one can only hope. If the "Envouge" (lol) sells well, and keeps the soccer mom's happy (and they sell a million of them), maybe we will get lucky. In the meantime, maybe it is time for the LR Offroad faithful to try a JK or one of the offerings from Toyota?

That Ford Raptor looks pretty sweet too!

 

[Antichrist]

I wonder if Land Rover will do a Pan American Highway trip with two Evogues. From Alaska to Tierra del Fuego via the Darien Gap.

 

[Antichrist]

I hope they have a big win with the Evoque. That will fund and support other models that we can love.

I'm not holding breath, after seeing their "Defender" concept. In today's lineup the current Defender is the only one I would even consider a fling with, much less love. And even then I'd sort of feel dirty afterwards.

 

[Rocket Ship]

And the more likely you are to need it, since you can't see what's around you.

Just keep your eye on the built in navigation screen and you'll be fine.

 

[comac90]

....... So it is becoming apparent that I am in love with a dinosaur! I love what Land Rover 'was' - not what it 'is'. ............ I guess (like Zimm's thread under fireside chat)- I am getting old or something. I just want a truck that can take me where I want to go with a sense of adventure- that I don't have to wrench on all week before and after going, will get me there without that sense of "what the heck was the noise!" white knuckle feeling I drive with. And feel like I can purchase it turn key. I guess that Is why I am spending more and more time on AEV's site looking at 4 door Rubicons!

I think you hit it right on the head.

I have loved Rovers ever since I saw my first Camel Trophy back in college 20 yrs ago (on ESPN, no less). I bought one a year after getting out of school, followed by others over the next few yrs. After lots of trail time and hrs and hrs spent modifying (that awesome solid axle, boxed frame platform ), I co-founded Rover Tracks and co-owned it until moving back east. Then, over the past couple of years I started looking for a new overland/camping/trail vehicle with the expanding family. But, I just couldn't get into spring 'airbags' and 4-wheel indy suspension. So, I looked to the past and considered overhauling a 95 Rangie Classic ... Then came back to my beloved Defender model - still I couldn't pull the trigger on anything; i was really wanting something newer. The whole time I kept becoming more intrigued with the AEV JKU Rubicons (while becoming less thrilled about the direction of Land Rover). Then, when Jeep decided to drop the 3.6VVT and the 5-spd auto into the JK for 2012, I could not resist no longer.

My Camel Trophy sticker is going to look funny on the JK ... I have to keep telling myself 'Jeep did the first one, Jeep did the first one'.

T