Hierarchy of hard sided campers that handle the snow/winter?

calameda

Member
But regardless of industry, if you are looking to maintain and keep up with the latest and greatest market trends, despicable behavior is to be expected from any so-called "friends"
I can concede that’s too often true, while also condemning the behavior and not just brushing it off as normal business. Mind you, this wasn’t a competitor but an intimately trusted and necessary partner. Without such build partners, a company like TC probably couldn’t exist.

There are mostly good corporate citizens in our small community (it’s not big enough to attract the truly evil ones!) but there are a few bad ones. Not many, luckily, but a few. Victorian/TC certainly is one of the best. I imagine most here want to know who the good ones and bad ones are, as I do. If a company betrays its business partners, chances are they wont do right by their customers either.

Knowledgeable, trustworthy vendors are an indispensable cornerstone of this hobby/community. We should support them. And not cast a blind eye to bad actors.

<off soapbox>
 
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yamaha225

Member
Not to hijack this thread, but I would be curious to know more about what happened between OAT and Total Composites.

Also, I think Idasho’s advice is on point for the OP. Used truck campers can often be had for pretty cheap. Like he did, that would give you a chance to figure out what works and what doesn’t with a low initial investment. Then if you decide to upgrade you can do so from a more knowledgeable point of view. Do keep in mind that most “off the shelf” truck campers leak at some point in their lives so buy carefully or do like I did and just expect there to be issues. I just got a 1989 Coachman for $2,000. It’s not perfect, but it’s in good shape for its age and was well looked after by an older couple who are family friends. It should allow me to figure out what I want in my future custom camper build.
 

calameda

Member
That's a pretty damning characterization.

Lot of folks read this stuff, trust you can cash that cheque.

No check written, you took my statement out of context. The context was:
Knowledgeable, trustworthy vendors are an indispensable cornerstone of this hobby/community. We should support them. And not cast a blind eye to bad actors.

“not cast a blind eye to bad actors” was a response to IdaSHO's statement that:
But regardless of industry, if you are looking to maintain and keep up with the latest and greatest market trends, despicable behavior is to be expected from any so-called "friends"

I assumed the reference was obvious because, well, I quoted it.

no further comment.
 

IdaSHO

IDACAMPER
And there is a big difference between broad industry comments and calling out specifics with regard to individuals and/or businesses.

As much as a relationship gone sour stings, Im sure there is nothing Victorian/TC want LESS than to air out their laundry on a public forum.
 

klahanie

daydream believer
No check written, you took my statement out of context. The context was:


“not cast a blind eye to bad actors” was a response to IdaSHO's statement that:


I assumed the reference was obvious because, well, I quoted it.

no further comment.

Click to expand...

Say what you will about me.

True, I should have quoted the entire post.
Yes, you quoted another member :
But regardless of industry, if you are looking to maintain and keep up with the latest and greatest market trends, despicable behavior is to be expected from any so-called "friends"

but then you wrote of specifics
Mind you, this wasn’t a competitor but an intimately trusted and necessary partner

As for context, I'll let the gentle reader - as I am - make their own take on what has been posted:
I can concede that’s too often true, while also condemning the behavior and not just brushing it off as normal business. Mind you, this wasn’t a competitor but an intimately trusted and necessary partner. Without such build partners, a company like TC probably couldn’t exist.

There are mostly good corporate citizens in our small community (it’s not big enough to attract the truly evil ones!) but there are a few bad ones. Not many, luckily, but a few. Victorian/TC certainly is one of the best. I imagine most here want to know who the good ones and bad ones are, as I do. If a company betrays its business partners, chances are they wont do right by their customers either.

Knowledgeable, trustworthy vendors are an indispensable cornerstone of this hobby/community. We should support them. And not cast a blind eye to bad actors.

<off soapbox>

Click to expand...
 

Victorian

Approved Vendor : Total Composites
And there is a big difference between broad industry comments and calling out specifics with regard to individuals and/or businesses.

As much as a relationship gone sour stings, Im sure there is nothing Victorian/TC want LESS than to air out their laundry on a public forum.
Not to hijack this thread, but I would be curious to know more about what happened between OAT and Total Composites.

Also, I think Idasho’s advice is on point for the OP. Used truck campers can often be had for pretty cheap. Like he did, that would give you a chance to figure out what works and what doesn’t with a low initial investment. Then if you decide to upgrade you can do so from a more knowledgeable point of view. Do keep in mind that most “off the shelf” truck campers leak at some point in their lives so buy carefully or do like I did and just expect there to be issues. I just got a 1989 Coachman for $2,000. It’s not perfect, but it’s in good shape for its age and was well looked after by an older couple who are family friends. It should allow me to figure out what I want in my future custom camper build.

Sorry can’t go too deep into details as this now with our Lawyers. But I can summarize what happened to avoid the wrong rumours from spreading.
For the last two years, while working with us in a wholesale/trusted builder relationship OAT and DDG formed an alliance to secretly develop their own Pultrusions and panel system. Anyone looking at their “new system” will clearly see the straight copy of our IP and technical designs.
All at the same we were kept in the dark, referring customers to them and assumed it’s business as usual. This includes sharing trade secrets, material testing results, upcoming new products etc.
At the same time they had the guts to approach current and potential customers hoping to get their business.

In any case, if you heart anything else from them, be your own judge …… or reach out to us per email or pm. The last thing we are asking for is a turmoil in this fairly small industry.

Cheers and thank you all for your kind responses we received already.
 

yamaha225

Member
Sorry can’t go too deep into details as this now with our Lawyers. But I can summarize what happened to avoid the wrong rumours from spreading.
For the last two years, while working with us in a wholesale/trusted builder relationship OAT and DDG formed an alliance to secretly develop their own Pultrusions and panel system. Anyone looking at their “new system” will clearly see the straight copy of our IP and technical designs.
All at the same we were kept in the dark, referring customers to them and assumed it’s business as usual. This includes sharing trade secrets, material testing results, upcoming new products etc.
At the same time they had the guts to approach current and potential customers hoping to get their business.

In any case, if you heart anything else from them, be your own judge …… or reach out to us per email or pm. The last thing we are asking for is a turmoil in this fairly small industry.

Cheers and thank you all for your kind responses we received already.

That is a more than sufficient explanation. Thank you very much, it’s helpful to know a little about what happened. That’s a pretty special kind of dirty, even in our capitalist system where this is all too common. I’m very sorry to hear that this was done to you and I hope that your lawyers are able to offer a resolution. Good luck!
 

msiminoff

Active member
Hi there B^2, Total Composites camper owner here. I'm one of the people who "sold my mass produced 4-season truck camper" (after 14 years of ownership) and decided to go with Total Composites. 🤪 My previous truck camper was an Alpenlite Saratoga 935. It was designed for a short-box 1-ton truck, had a 9 foot floor, and a single curb-side slide. Like you, I have two kids and our family of four has traveled the entire country in a truck camper. We even took 'em out of school and traveled in the camper for a full year (If you're interested you can read about that adventure HERE). Since you said that your primary cold weather use will be ski trips to Tahoe, IMO you can easily get away with a truck camper with a slide... a cold winter in Tahoe is not the same as cold winter in the Yukon. However, you should expect to use a lot of propane and/or electricity; slides are quite draft-ey. FWIW I never experienced any mechanical or structural issues with the slide.

With regard to your question about hierarchy; I'm not qualified to list the brands/models in any kid of logical order, but there are a handful of exceptional quality 4-season truck campers you might consider. Any of these would do just fine at Tahoe: Northern Lite, Wolf Creek, Northstar, Adventurer, Bigfoot, etc. I do think that Lance makes nice campers too.

Now, having had the Total Composites box for a little more than one year, I'm in agreement with IdaSHO; What's best for your family depends on your use case and your personal wants & needs. Due to their small internal volume, all these hard side habitats are relatively easy to heat in a typical winter environment... ya' know, the kind most of us in the continental US would choose to camp in. I had no problem keeping the truck camper warm using the propane furnace at 10ºF outside temps, and it's been the same with the Total Composites with a ~6800BTU diesel furnace. Both of them get condensation on the inside, this is due to the many openings that are cut through the wall and ceiling panels for window, hatches, water & power ports, etc... and the simple fact that we cook inside the camper and are continuously exhaling water vapor.

In my case I biased my build toward camping at the beach and in the desert. I chose to have a very large rear door; it's an insulated marine door but in sub-freezing temperatures moisture can condense on it's frame exactly the same as it does on my windows & hatches The thing is, I wanted this feature and is just so spectacular when open that I wouldn't trade it for anything! Importantly, this hasn't reduced our snow camping one bit.

It's unfortunate that other folks here have hijacked your post just to talk ********** about their competition. If you want additional factual information about Total Composites campers please feel free to DM me or create a new forum post on that subject.

Cheers!
-Mark
04032023_7.JPG
 

Ozarker

Well-known member
I'm wondering what the hierarchy is for hard sided camper manufacturers that can handle the snow/cold temps? I'm looking to get a full ton truck in the next couple years and a slide in camper for occasional ski weekend trips to tahoe. I know Lance is fairly popular but I'm curious where they fall in the hierarchy of camper manufacturers in terms of build quality. Who else out there makes quality hard sided campers? I imagine a single slide out adds a fair bit of weight, are there also issues with heat with a slide out? We've got two young kids so a slide out would be helpful for the space but wondering if it's a bad idea if the intended use is the winter.
I'm no expert on slide outs, but a neighbor has one and cusses it regularly. You might consider one that retracts inside for the nights in really cold weather, just having less exposed surfaces to the outside will give the furnace a break.
 
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B^2

Observer
Hi there B^2, Total Composites camper owner here. I'm one of the people who "sold my mass produced 4-season truck camper" (after 14 years of ownership) and decided to go with Total Composites. 🤪 My previous truck camper was an Alpenlite Saratoga 935. It was designed for a short-box 1-ton truck, had a 9 foot floor, and a single curb-side slide. Like you, I have two kids and our family of four has traveled the entire country in a truck camper. We even took 'em out of school and traveled in the camper for a full year (If you're interested you can read about that adventure HERE). Since you said that your primary cold weather use will be ski trips to Tahoe, IMO you can easily get away with a truck camper with a slide... a cold winter in Tahoe is not the same as cold winter in the Yukon. However, you should expect to use a lot of propane and/or electricity; slides are quite draft-ey. FWIW I never experienced any mechanical or structural issues with the slide.

With regard to your question about hierarchy; I'm not qualified to list the brands/models in any kid of logical order, but there are a handful of exceptional quality 4-season truck campers you might consider. Any of these would do just fine at Tahoe: Northern Lite, Wolf Creek, Northstar, Adventurer, Bigfoot, etc. I do think that Lance makes nice campers too.

Now, having had the Total Composites box for a little more than one year, I'm in agreement with IdaSHO; What's best for your family depends on your use case and your personal wants & needs. Due to their small internal volume, all these hard side habitats are relatively easy to heat in a typical winter environment... ya' know, the kind most of us in the continental US would choose to camp in. I had no problem keeping the truck camper warm using the propane furnace at 10ºF outside temps, and it's been the same with the Total Composites with a ~6800BTU diesel furnace. Both of them get condensation on the inside, this is due to the many openings that are cut through the wall and ceiling panels for window, hatches, water & power ports, etc... and the simple fact that we cook inside the camper and are continuously exhaling water vapor.

In my case I biased my build toward camping at the beach and in the desert. I chose to have a very large rear door; it's an insulated marine door but in sub-freezing temperatures moisture can condense on it's frame exactly the same as it does on my windows & hatches The thing is, I wanted this feature and is just so spectacular when open that I wouldn't trade it for anything! Importantly, this hasn't reduced our snow camping one bit.

It's unfortunate that other folks here have hijacked your post just to talk ********** about their competition. If you want additional factual information about Total Composites campers please feel free to DM me or create a new forum post on that subject.

Cheers!
-Mark
View attachment 841616


Who built out the interior of your total composites shell? I'm on vacation for another week but I'll be pming you when I'm back to ask some questions.
 

unreng

Member
There is also:


There are others that I can't recall at the moment.

Steer more towards the newer "overland" companies because they use a product that insulates better in cold&hot, and the construction methods can be better.

A friend purchased a new "biggest one they make" slide-in truck camper in 2023 and spent the next 5 months fixing the QA/QC issues... wobbly table, drooping exterior skin, ventilated lithium battery compartment, non- sealed joints, etc.

The big names aren't built like they used to thanks to the covid effect.

Hope this helps. 👍
 
The relatively standard 60mm thick wallboard material that Unicat uses (3mm fiberglass outside, 2mm inside, 55mm solid urethane foam in between) is 0.44w/sq m-deg C insulation rating. For those that are unwilling to do the simple conversion themselves, that’s R12.9. I think TC uses similar stuff.
Double pane windows are about R2.2
An easy way to do the calculation for the whole thing is multiply window area x 12.9/2.2 ~6 and roof vent area by 13 (they’re probably R1 or less).
Then multiply the whole thing by 0.44 (in the case of the 60mm urethane board) and for -40, as cold as anyone is going to likely camp, by 40+25 = 65 to keep things inside at 25C = 77F.
Always round all calculations up to account for leaks etc.
So for my 2.24 x 4.8 x 1.9m camper with 7 windows about 0.3 sq m each and 3 standard size (14x14”) roof vents, “adjusted” area is ~70 sq m. That includes floor and ceiling of course.
So about 31w per deg C, 2kw for the whole thing.
40% duty cycle for typical 5kw diesel heater. Of course the diesel fuel needs to stay liquid….
A combination of nasty personal circumstances (divorce, restraining orders etc) caused a neighbor to have to park an enormous class C in my yard last summer, with him inside.
It was raining those 2-3-4 days, so maybe 58F during long days and 46-48F during short nights.
I think it was 31’ long, so maybe double the internal surface area of mine. He went through 1.5 propane cylinders in about 3 days (maybe it was 4 at the most).
That Class C was using an average of 2kw to keep the thing maybe 25F or 14C warmer than ambient!!!
The point of this dissertation is that insulation is really important. And what I call “typical American RVs” (this was a rental from an Anchorage place) are CRAP as far as insulation.
One more thing: Unicat suspends their mattresses on those square blue things to get an air space (I store 42” torque wrench, breaker bar, multiple other tools and various parts, atlases/guidebooks etc under mattress). They have a dedicated heating zone under the mattress with a long steel braided hose, to avoid condensation since it’s over the rear unheated storage compartment.
 
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