Hierarchy of hard sided campers that handle the snow/winter?

[sn_85]

The Aterra by AT has has my attention the most for quality and lightness… curious about people’s opinions on warmth?

Bison and similar you can almost build out for $40k less. Hard to justify that big of a difference

As others have mentioned the lightness of the Aterra comes at a cost and that is the thickness and type of composite paneling they use. I think someone has mentioned it's about 1/2 to maybe 3/4" thick material? By comparison I think the Bison uses 1.5" panels, TC 2" panels and Cascadia 3" panels. I'm sure the Aterra is adequate in winter but you may be seeing a lot more condensation and I'm positive the Truma will be running quite a bit harder through the night. Seems like with some of the other composite campers you can run a 2kW or 4kW diesel heater and still be plenty warm in very cold winters.

I think the Aterra is priced right for a full build with everything. All the components and systems seem very high quality which add to the price. The benefit with a shell build is that you can tailor it what you want and stick to a price point or budget as desired. I think if winter camping is a big sticking point with you I would look at other options than the Aterra. They seem to be a lot more robust and up to the task of winter camping than the Aterra IMO.

 

[calameda]

I think someone has mentioned it's about 1/2 to maybe 3/4" thick material? By comparison I think the Bison uses 1.5" panels, TC 2" panels and Cascadia 3" panels.

We should distinguish insulative capacity from structural integrity here. Skinned PE honeycomb panels are generally quite rigid and strong for a given thickness. But they do not provide insulation comparable to foam for the same thickness, simply because with honeycomb there are no structural barriers to heat flow, only air, between the skins. So, even if a skinned honeycomb panel were 2” thick it would not provide appreciably more insulation than 1/2”, though it would certainly be more rigid.

 

[andy_b]

Another thing about honeycomb that is interesting is that since it is just air between the skins, light passes through easily. The Aterra has a polyurea coating that I assume provides some opacity. In our TC camper, our bathroom is built using honeycomb panels that are an inch thick. Daylight through the door window passes through it pretty easily while the foam-cored walls are almost completely opaque. Anyhow, I agree that the Aterra is a great value but I’m not sure how efficient it would be in truly cold climes.

 

[IdaSHO]

I can understand the sentiment that the higher R-value the better.
But my research and 12+ years of first hand experience shows that the benefits must be weighed with the negatives.

Our custom camper with just R7 or so and nothing more than a 1960's gravity fed LP furnace rated at just 6kBTU has NO problem maintaining comfortable temps to -20 degrees F.
So while higher R value may seem like the thing to do, do yourself a favor and consider the additional cost/weight/volume lost when pushing to thicker and/or higher R value walls.

Personally, I consider 1-1/2 of XPS foam is more than sufficient for 99% of users, and will provide the best return on investment over the long term.

 

[rruff]

Floor R value with the composite hardboard they are using should 7-10 depending on what you give the honeycomb as the vacuum bonding process should pull most air out of the honeycomb and leave it sealed but you can’t count on it pulling and holding a hard vacuum.

The composite board may have R4/in or so if it's foam + fiberglass like Coosa.

The PP honeycomb samples I've seen are sealed in manufacture with air inside; when I got them at 7,000 ft where I live, there was a little bubble above each cell! I don't think they are being evacuated during bonding.

If you do own Cascadia as Victorian mentioned, can you provide tech specs on your foam and skins?

 

[rruff]

A truly cold weather shelter would use a heat exchanger for the ventilation, moist warm outgoing air heats the incoming dryer air.

When the insulation gets quite good, the ventilation loss becomes an important factor, and a heat exchanger would certainly help. But I think this is probably only practical for someone really trying to minimize heat energy... maybe use only body heat, electric heat, or a very simple heater.

But as Idasho mentioned, the fuel use is pretty trivial for the sort of construction we are talking about. His rig even has some wood framing unlike the more common foam/fiberglass sandwich panel... which is essentially air-tight, and avoids significant bridging.

Also, regarding heat loss on the floor vs the ceiling, the loss will be proportional to the delta T between the interior/exterior surfaces. Airflow (or the lack of) on the surface can effect this, but it will usually be minor compared to the insulation value of the foam. Since the panels are sealed you won't get any air migrating through them.

 

[simple]

Another elusive tidbit with the foam core / FRP panels is that their insulative properties mean that they don't conduct much heat (thermal energy) into areas that aren't in contact with warmed air.

Idasho's wood build would likely have more heat in the nooks and cranny's and inside cabinets / under mattresses etc.

Bold statement yes. How significant, not sure. Fun to think about though.

 

[rruff]

Assessing a units overall R rating is what is lacking, a simple test similar to an ice chest, bring the RV interior temp up to 72 degrees, and then parked in a 32F environment, plot it's temp change over time as it cools.

I measured the input to an electric heater. It's simple and works well. Hard part is gauging the exterior environment when you have variable sun and temperature and wind... but estimating is good enough.

I don't camp in extreme temperatures, but it's nice when the body heat of one person is enough to raise the interior temp >10F on cold nights.

 

[Victorian]

not sure if any other manufacturer has done that… we went through a thermal audit conducted by a government certified building inspector. He didn’t only look for cold bridges he also tested everything for air tightness. We had a portable diesel heater blasting the interior of our truck camper for over an hour. the weak points are windows and doors. Everything past with flying colours. Here is a write up we did last year about condensation and how to avoid it: https://expeditionupfitter.com/blog...-camper-moisture-free-a-complete-owners-guide

 

[Trail Talk]

Here is a data point from our composite panel camper. During our winter travels, the Webasto ThermoTop burns around a litre of fuel every 2 1/2 hours. Since it can be running 18+ hours a day, (that is, when not driving and using the engine hydronic circuit) that consumption is significant enough to factor into our range calculations. I had OEV seal up a small pass-through into the cab to eliminate one hole in the envelope but then we need to keep some cross-ventilation for air quality.

 

[simple]

Here is a data point from our composite panel camper. During our winter travels, the Webasto ThermoTop burns around a litre of fuel every 2 1/2 hours. Since it can be running 18+ hours a day, (that is, when not driving and using the engine hydronic circuit) that consumption is significant enough to factor into our range calculations. I had OEV seal up a small pass-through into the cab to eliminate one hole in the envelope but then we need to keep some cross-ventilation for air quality.

Interesting data. Burn rate is higher than expected. Do you notice much difference in consumption between 32F and 0F?

 

[Trail Talk]

Interesting data. Burn rate is higher than expected. Do you notice much difference in consumption between 32F and 0F?

For sure, as temps drop the Webasto cycles more frequently and runs longer. Run times seem to increase noticeably once it gets below 5F/-15C outside. The unit adjusts its output in stages and cycles on and off to maintain coolant temps between 65C and 79C. These parameters are not adjustable. We generally maintain 20C air temperature inside during the day and reduce the setting to 10C overnight.

 

[Trail Talk]

Another interesting data point on Webasto consumption in a semi‘s sleeper cab; likely the most prolific application for these units. I read a blog post from a Calgary installer advising his customers to expect 0.7 litres fuel burn per hour of operation, nearly double what we experience.

 

[rruff]

Here is a data point from our composite panel camper. During our winter travels, the Webasto ThermoTop burns around a litre of fuel every 2 1/2 hours.

It would be interesting if you can convert that to an average W/F of heat supplied. That's Fahrenheit between indoor and outdoor temperature. I think our campers are fairly comparable in size. Mine is ~13 W/F in testing (For instance a 50F delta T, would be 650W) after saturating for 3 days, and it was 18 W/F the first day. That's with no one in it, BTW. Body heat can help a lot if the insulation is good!

 

[JSKepler]

Greetings. New on this forum. Based in Northern Utah. Hoping to buy/build a rig that I can use for winter camping and accessing backcountry and crosscountry trailheads. And, of course, the other three seasons. With family in Arizona I'll want to stay cool as well as warm and insulation accomplishes both. I'm new to 'RV'ing' but I have as much desire to stay in an RV park as I do to be hospitalized. I see now that I'm more interested in overlanding, something I already do on motorcycles.

My current vehicle is a 2004 Ford F350 Super Duty Crew Cab 4x4 ShortBox with the 6.0 liter diesel. My hope is (was) to 'get' a '4-season' camper and put it in the bed. However, I tend to research stuff before making a move (maybe I could have researched that 6.0 better 😁) and am finding 4-Season might not mean 4-season.

At the moment I'm looking at a 2018 Lance 825 and a 2018 Northern Lite 8-11. Both are in great shape. Both claim 4-season. They have overlapping and different features. My 'research' says the Northern Lite is a much better unit than the Lance. It's also overweight for my F350. Seems to be overweight for everyone else's, too. The Lance, btw, is right there in the payload sweet spot. NL has a cassette toilet. 825 doesn't have a stove. Etc.

Then, I find this forum and it seems the general consensus is that the pre-built 4-season units have a long way to go to be true 4-season. What's worse, most of the arguments make sense and come with numbers that also make sense. Maybe it's like I discovered with motorcycles: you have to buy one (sometimes two, three, or more) to know which one you actually want. I ride a GS now and do BDRs as well as a Husky 501 for trails and such. And BDRs. Also thinking a good camper will extend my riding while simultaneously destroying my marriage .

Does it make sense to buy a pretty nice camper to learn about all this, then sell and build one? I'd go with an old beater like @IdaSHO did but I really want my wife to enjoy it and she's not going to enjoy a smelly old beater. The smell alone would be the end of that project. But not being familiar with RVs, I really don't know how to choose or if I'd be better off just waiting. The NL is a better design and larger. The Lance would be more nimble. The NL is overweight on my truck. The Lance doesn't have a basement. The gedankenexperiment goes on. I don't plan on epic journeys (yet) but it is cold in the mountains in the winter and I would like to have heat and water. Not getting any younger. Just kind of spinning my wheels right now.