INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter Correus
- Start date
zimm
Expedition Leader
Like many, I put the money down to be in line, but I really doubt I’m going to to purchase anything with a BMW engine. I can’t even begin to express how unappealing the thought of that engine/tranny combo is to me. A light duty truck drivetrain from any other manufacturer would have been a vanilla choice, and perfect for the job. I just wonder who sits down to design a defender replacement, that fixes the defender reliability flaws, and picks what is essentially a car drivetrain. Weird.
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
I know nearly nothing about the BMW engines but the transmission is a ZF 8 speed, which is widely used in many vehicles including RAM 1500 and RAM2500.
Fishenough
Creeper
Mk116v brought up a good question.
Early on wondered if the Ecodiesel would be used, than later on wondered if Toyota would want more suppliers for their own F33A. What other options would others consider?
I've only had 2 straight 6 BMW engines, each for 12 & 15 years, as only a part timer convertible, but each engine was a treat that never had a hiccup. But I also had a 2016 Tacoma, which I didn't offroad in the places I want to because of the trucks value, which is the reason we desided to pass on the Ineos with its rising cost
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Grassland
Well-known member
I'd take a Ford cyclone V6 with a 6R80 or 10R80 in it. For North America anyway.
Rovertrader
Supporting Sponsor
How about a slightly different perspective. I may be wrong, but believe the max horsepower Hellcat requires an ECU change for offroad/track use. If so, or if not, why not provide same for the Grenadier? Something that bypasses ALL the nannies, sensors, etc- even make it only function in low range to prohibit on road use! I’m sure their team of engineers and lawyers can configure some such emergency mode to at least prevent the electronics from rendering it dead in the water (pun intended) when survival could actually be a real threat.
Or, perhaps an option to provide a real proprietary code reader so at least diagnostics could be performed to facilitate parts being sent to the closest post?!
There has to be a way, regardless of drivetrain. Sadly even modern day farm equipment/tractors/etc are plagued with enough computers to all but eliminate the operator.
Wether the powers to be recognize it or not, there are instances when technology becomes the Achilles!!
I’ll never forget the dean of engineering at orientation 50 years ago stating “engineering is 98% common sense, we hope to teach you the other 2%”!! Go figure….
Or, perhaps an option to provide a real proprietary code reader so at least diagnostics could be performed to facilitate parts being sent to the closest post?!
There has to be a way, regardless of drivetrain. Sadly even modern day farm equipment/tractors/etc are plagued with enough computers to all but eliminate the operator.
Wether the powers to be recognize it or not, there are instances when technology becomes the Achilles!!
I’ll never forget the dean of engineering at orientation 50 years ago stating “engineering is 98% common sense, we hope to teach you the other 2%”!! Go figure….
SkiWill
Well-known member
Ok since there has been a lot of discussion and speculation on why the Grenadier uses BMW powertrains, I did some Mi6 spy stuff (or used my 98% common sense engineering brain) and recovered actual (or probably close to it) discussions between Ineos and major engine manufacturers from around the world.
"Hello, this is Sir Jim Ratcliffe from Ineos. I'm building a brand new global expedition 4x4 in the spirit of the erstwhile Land Rover Defender and need to procure 25-30k power trains per year in both petrol and diesel variants for assembly in Europe. I was wondering if you might oblige?"
JLR: "Really? We wouldn't sell you the Defender tooling, and we certainly are not going to sell you any power trains. You do remember we are suing you in multiple jurisdictions right?"
Ford: "You're building a what? Hey Jim, have you heard of the Bronco? It's great. You're going to love it. You can take the top off and cruise the beach with gigantic tires and leave people to wonder about the size of your payload capacity.... hello?"
GM: "You're building this thing where? I think my great-grandfather blew up some tanks there once. That's about all I know about that over there. But never mind our catastrophic failure of bringing back the Blazer name on a stupid looking crossover we've got you covered with a 4x4. It's called a pickup truck and Jimbo, you're going to love it. Now all we need is for you to wait about 18 months for us to build one in Mexico and...hello? Jimbo? Still there?"
Stellantis (formerly FCA): "Oh, right. Like the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon but less capable off road. We can point you in the direction of the nearest Jeep dealership and that'd be a whole lot easier. Hello?"
Honda: "A truck based 4x4? We've never heard of that. Would you like a reliable and fuel efficient commuter car or a lawnmower?"
Toyota: "You want to build a Land Cruiser competitor in France? Ok. Let us know how that works out for you. Good luck. You're going to need it."
VW: "Diesel? Diesel huh. Is it hot in here or just me?"
Hyundai/Kia: "We need all the engines we can make to sell Tellurides a stupid markup because we're finally not a punchline anymore. HA!"
Mercedes: "You're a billionaire. Buy a G-class. We'll bring one right over."
Sir Jim heard yelling through the halls of Ineos, "Really? IS THERE NO ONE!" A subordinate slips him contact information for BMW and runs for cover. A loud sigh is heard. Moments and half a bottle of Scotch later,
"Hello, this is Sir Jimbo Ratcliffe from Ineos. I'm building a brand new global expedition 4x4 in the spirit of the (expletive) Land Rover Defender and need to procure 25-30k power trains per year in both petrol and diesel variants for assembly in Europe. I was wondering if you might have something without disposable rod bearings and biodegradable valve seats? At this point, I'll even let you do stupid stuff like route oil lines through alternator brackets and put timing chains on the back of the engine to make the inexplicably fragile variable valve timing components impossible to reach."
BMW: "Ah yes Sir Jim. So nice to hear from you. It appears we have the complete opposite perspective on the 'ultimate driving machine'. Given your financial resources and the fact that we would never in a million years build a vehicle that would possibly be cross shopped with your project, we would be happy to build some powertrains for you. It will keep our unions happy as they will be losing thousands of jobs due to the simplified assembly of our vehicles as we embrace electrification."
Sir Jim: "Thanks. I guess."
"Hello, this is Sir Jim Ratcliffe from Ineos. I'm building a brand new global expedition 4x4 in the spirit of the erstwhile Land Rover Defender and need to procure 25-30k power trains per year in both petrol and diesel variants for assembly in Europe. I was wondering if you might oblige?"
JLR: "Really? We wouldn't sell you the Defender tooling, and we certainly are not going to sell you any power trains. You do remember we are suing you in multiple jurisdictions right?"
Ford: "You're building a what? Hey Jim, have you heard of the Bronco? It's great. You're going to love it. You can take the top off and cruise the beach with gigantic tires and leave people to wonder about the size of your payload capacity.... hello?"
GM: "You're building this thing where? I think my great-grandfather blew up some tanks there once. That's about all I know about that over there. But never mind our catastrophic failure of bringing back the Blazer name on a stupid looking crossover we've got you covered with a 4x4. It's called a pickup truck and Jimbo, you're going to love it. Now all we need is for you to wait about 18 months for us to build one in Mexico and...hello? Jimbo? Still there?"
Stellantis (formerly FCA): "Oh, right. Like the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon but less capable off road. We can point you in the direction of the nearest Jeep dealership and that'd be a whole lot easier. Hello?"
Honda: "A truck based 4x4? We've never heard of that. Would you like a reliable and fuel efficient commuter car or a lawnmower?"
Toyota: "You want to build a Land Cruiser competitor in France? Ok. Let us know how that works out for you. Good luck. You're going to need it."
VW: "Diesel? Diesel huh. Is it hot in here or just me?"
Hyundai/Kia: "We need all the engines we can make to sell Tellurides a stupid markup because we're finally not a punchline anymore. HA!"
Mercedes: "You're a billionaire. Buy a G-class. We'll bring one right over."
Sir Jim heard yelling through the halls of Ineos, "Really? IS THERE NO ONE!" A subordinate slips him contact information for BMW and runs for cover. A loud sigh is heard. Moments and half a bottle of Scotch later,
"Hello, this is Sir Jimbo Ratcliffe from Ineos. I'm building a brand new global expedition 4x4 in the spirit of the (expletive) Land Rover Defender and need to procure 25-30k power trains per year in both petrol and diesel variants for assembly in Europe. I was wondering if you might have something without disposable rod bearings and biodegradable valve seats? At this point, I'll even let you do stupid stuff like route oil lines through alternator brackets and put timing chains on the back of the engine to make the inexplicably fragile variable valve timing components impossible to reach."
BMW: "Ah yes Sir Jim. So nice to hear from you. It appears we have the complete opposite perspective on the 'ultimate driving machine'. Given your financial resources and the fact that we would never in a million years build a vehicle that would possibly be cross shopped with your project, we would be happy to build some powertrains for you. It will keep our unions happy as they will be losing thousands of jobs due to the simplified assembly of our vehicles as we embrace electrification."
Sir Jim: "Thanks. I guess."
zimm
Expedition Leader
Pretty much all of the companies mentioned, with the possible exception of Toyota (volume issues with TPS from what I understand), will partner with another company to unload off the shelf drive-trains. It's easy money in a low margin business. Land cruisers, G wagons, Bronco's or pickups aren't going to lose sales to this thing, and if they can take a chunk of the profit without development costs, they would be all in.
I believe the gasser transmission we are getting has a TQ limit of 350ish ft/lbs, which is close cutting it for truck that will supposedly be used as beast of burden, not a mall cruiser. It's the sedan version with a heavier tq coverter. Wanna add some power? Not with that one if you intend to tow.
As to what would make me feel better? like I said, something from a light truck manufacturer. An LS with a 10L for example, would give you all the power, reliability, durability, and and cost effectiveness you would need. Yea, I know, its not a "world architecture".... because we all know some shade tree shop in the Indonesian jungle is going to be BMW certified and can track down issues with the goofy intake and whatnot.
Considering the hoopla for the BMW partnership, I actually think what they liked most was the image of the German engine, as real costs per unit likely aren't that much different for an OEM supplier for something from a company like GM. So, they went with what WOWed in the brochure and they could charge a premium for and had a bolt in diesel option. As for burning oil, with the finicky natue of modern "clean" diesels (I have one) and the now common of 8,9, and 10 speed autoboxes, the lighter duty diesels lose much of their advantage and will be going the way of the dodobird anyway. Gasoline is everywhere.
It sems to me, as this thing has evolved, the reality of low volume production needing premium pricing to survive has set in, and the original concept of resuscitating the Defender workhorse tractor has fallen to the same forces that created the new Defender we have today... sex appeal for money.
Will the rig work? I'm sure it will. Lots of things with 4 spinning wheels get around. I've seen Mercedes sedans pretty deep in the amazon too, but I don't think that was what was being sold to us with the stoty of the defender reboot penciled on a bar napkin.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
Ineos has already stated their reason for using BMW powerplants. They wanted longevity in the vehicle, and BMW was the only engine manufacturer willing to give them a 10-year production guarantee. Every other manufacturer of engines they approached maxed out at 5 years for ICE engines. I can't recall if this was in an article I read of one of the Building the Grenadier episodes but if I can find a source I'll edit this post accordingly (unless someone else can beat me to it).
zimm
Expedition Leader
SkiWill gets Best of Expo nomination. Thanks for the chuckle.
LS? Yes, many simplified advantages, but at this point <yawn>......and yes, I'm trying to come up with a more suitable powerplant for the Grenadier. Maybe a 3rotor?
If diesel is your game, how about the light truck Isuzu Dmax unit? its close to whats in there now in size and power, is an inexpensive drivetrain assembly from a truck manufacturer and easily serviced in 3rd world countries. .. its <all yawn> too, granted, but there's also standard transmission option for us old phauwques. <-- (not technically swearing)
mk216v
Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Here's to the hope that Ineos makes it beyond year 3 with the Grenadier.
You mean there's a way to row your own gears? <shock>
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
Are those engines identical to the BMW car engines or they have been modified (whatever it could mean) to suit requirements for the G?
SkiWill
Well-known member
I don't know about all of the modifications, but I do know that they are tuned significantly differently. There's about a 50 hp decrease and peak torque comes lower in the rpm band than the standard BMW car and SUV variants. I have read that there are some hardware changes as well such as adding a drain plug for oil changes understanding that for remote travel and ease of servicing, a drain plug will be required. Apparently most BMWs have to use a vacuum pump to extract the oil during servicing. I am also hoping, but haven't confirmed, that the compression ratio and or turbo boost will be reduced to allow for regular instead of premium gasoline.