Oh absolutely: it's because of the details that have already been advertised and the promise the Grenadier shows as a result for this application, that the engine questions are being asked.
INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter Correus
- Start date
I saw the Grenadier prototype in Denver in February 2022. The axles, suspension links, bracketry and prop shafts are, base on visual inspection only, equivalent to a full size heavy duty truck. They make the same parts in the Jeep Wrangler JL look undersized and not fit for purpose. Unfortunately we were not allowed to look under the hood. If nothing else I was curious to see how much room there is in the engine compartment.
nickw
Adventurer
I'd have a hard time believing the axles are the size of a full size pickup - even the Toyota 70 series have much smaller axles than full size rigs and nobody upgrades those. It would be completely overkill to have 1-T axles in a rig this size. Gotta remember everything needs to play and work as a system, 1-T axles with a modest transmission and 1/4-T transfer case puts a lot of strain and things that can't be easily fixed. I think the general line of thinking is treat u-joints and axles as fuses vs all the stuff upstream.....but I am not an automotive engineer.
I did say based on visual inspection alone. Are they true 1 ton axles not likely. Are they much larger in size than those used in the Wrangler & Gladiator undoubtedly. And based on the 70 Series in I have seen in person the axle diameters are also much larger than those of the 70 Series. Size alone is not a measure of capacity but it is a direct contribution.
Tudor Tanase
Active member
EXACTLY. While I acknowledge others have the time and interest to write near 50 pages of posts about this "thing", I only opened the tread to see whether the "much awaited" 4wd is, finally, available for sale. No great surprise that it is not. Now if I can get someone to private message me when (or should I say IF???) that happens, that would be great. Until then this is all just a pipe dream, a marketing exercise or the longest product development ever - pick the one which fits.
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
They've made a deal with Bosch to have dealers, parts, service and warranty all over the world.
My take is they probably have one of the most global parts/service network after the 70 series LC and old Defender.
They're also doing really cool stuff like officially allowing you to do your own oil changes and maintenance while still maintaining the warranty.
Servicing Your Grenadier
We’re developing a network to service and repair your Grenadier 4X4 – in all four corners of the world. Learn more about servicing your Grenadier.
-Dan
Buyers in Europe are also able to place official orders to their specification with their dealer of choice. The US is simply going to be the last stop on the list. Not a bad thing. It lets the Aussies and Euro dogs sort out the initial teething issues.No need for a PM or to wait. Australians can (and have done so I understand) order one already.
Servicing Your Grenadier
We’re developing a network to service and repair your Grenadier 4X4 – in all four corners of the world. Learn more about servicing your Grenadier.ineosgrenadier.com
Check out the Ineos grenadier site for Au.
ChasingOurTrunks
Well-known member
You aren't wrong about this being a billionaire's hobby project, Billybob, but I think In addition to what @Dan Grec mentioned, the lack of having built any cars previously isn't really a huge issue with this vehicle I don't think - it's not like a bunch of chemical engineers at Ineos got a memo from Ratcliffe and put their normal jobs on hold while they sat down and tried to design a 4x4; Ineos partnered with some of the best experts in the industry to try to make a simple, robust 4x4 that will (hopefully) be greater than the sum of its' parts, and the parts they have chosen are amongst the best on the market. This is demonstrated on the fact that they aren't doing really anything in house -- seats are Recaro, because Recaro are seat experts. Engine is BMW, because BMW knows a lot about making decent engines. Axles are from a (I think) Portugese tractor company, because they know how to make stout, solid axles. The design and construction has been overseen by Magna Steyr, who clearly know how to make a rig given the popularity of the G-Wagen for both rich folks and militaries. So, I think odds are good this will be a solid rig.
As others have mentioned, it is available for sale now. Deliveries are starting in the next few months -- there's no "if" about it; Ineos is making and selling cars that are currently on trucks and boats en route to be delivered to customers. They are a bit behind the target schedule they announced pre-COVID, but not by much, and given how topsy-turvey the supply chain stuff has been for the past two years I'm actually surprised the delays aren't more significant. So the rig is definitely not a pipe dream - it's a real thing. I also don't think it's that long of a product development. Ratcliffe tried to buy the rights to the Defender around the time when JLR announced they would cease production (it stopped in 2016; I do not know when Jim tried to buy the designs). Ineos properly formally announced this adventure in 2017, and it's now 2022 - so around 6 years from announcing the concept to delivering the vehicle. That's pretty fast for a brand new company; even established manufacturers take longer than that to get a new model to market. For comparison, Rivian announced their stuff around the same time as Ineos, and they are on a similar timelines for delivery so I don't think it's fair to accuse this as being the longest product development ever. I think it seems that way because of how much public engagement the company has been doing -- most manufacturers hide their models till they are ready to go but Ineos pulled the curtain back on all the details (sometimes to their detriment) very early on.
Whether it's a marketing exercise or not - well the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and this particular pudding is about to be served to folks in Australia and Europe.
There are some social media images trickling out now over on TheIneosForum.com of some journalists getting to take the Grenadier through it's paces. Its looking to be good so far in what we've seen of delivery models in real-world conditions -- at least as good as we were promised in many ways, and maybe better in my admittedly biased and hopeful opinion. Journalist published reviews should be just around the corner, and then shortly after that it'll trickle out to the influencers and then everyday folks, so we're very close to having some solid real-world opinions on this vehicle.
I would imagine a big part of the BMW appeal is the ease of having petrol and diesel options.
Given it's a customer engine arrangement the interface between the vehicle and the engine/box is likely to be less involved than it might be in an OEM application. This interface is going to be very similar on both engines, engines that are also physically quite similar.
That similarity will be reducing their development costs quite a bit you would think.
Given it's a customer engine arrangement the interface between the vehicle and the engine/box is likely to be less involved than it might be in an OEM application. This interface is going to be very similar on both engines, engines that are also physically quite similar.
That similarity will be reducing their development costs quite a bit you would think.
zimm
Expedition Leader
1) BMW basically designed the chassis.
2) Toyota didn't have modern 6 on the shelf, and marketing said the supra HAD to be a straight 6.
If you're taking a basic chassis, the tweaking it to suit your purposes because a ground up development for a low volume unit is too expensive to be profitable, why would you deviate and increase development costs?
It was this configuration or nothing. Loss leader sales isn't something Toyota ascribes to.
No one said the engine or drive train is crap, just oddly undesirable for the Ineos application compared to other choices.
zimm
Expedition Leader
I wouldnt bank on the MPG being less. My stock 2.7t in my f150 has a combined 19mpg in hilly terrain/highway on street tires, and I thought I skimmed an article where EP was getting 22 with 35's in a Chevy.
nickw
Adventurer
It's amazing with big V8's get these days, my 2001 Tacoma w/3.4 + manual gets the same HWY mileage as my 2021 2500 Ram w/6.4 + auto...basically exactly double the power in a straight axle rig that weighs 3000 lbs more.
My 2019 Ranger w/2.3L EB would get 19-22, but ~12 pulling a trailer.
My 2500 Ram gets ~12 pulling a trailer too.
zimm
Expedition Leader
I'll change the topic a little....
I thought what is described the ceiling aircraft controls in some writeups .... was cool (sort of, i guess, the bonanza i fly in doesnt have those.) ... but then i got to thinking, what would i want up there? I like to keep my head pointed straight and be able to glance at my controls.
once again, it's cool looking for sure. you get to feel like a machine operator. but there must have been a reason i moved my comms in my old fj40 from the overhead shelf to a tuffy back in the day.
hell my defender dash was as tight as it got, but, that just meant everything was easy to see and reach.
I get they are trying to make the dash more L/R modular with one wiring harness and still provide switches, but, for what the rig costs, i'd rather not have dead space on the dash in front of me where i can see functions at a glance. It couldn't have saved that much to make it worth it.
I thought what is described the ceiling aircraft controls in some writeups .... was cool (sort of, i guess, the bonanza i fly in doesnt have those.) ... but then i got to thinking, what would i want up there? I like to keep my head pointed straight and be able to glance at my controls.
once again, it's cool looking for sure. you get to feel like a machine operator. but there must have been a reason i moved my comms in my old fj40 from the overhead shelf to a tuffy back in the day.
hell my defender dash was as tight as it got, but, that just meant everything was easy to see and reach.
I get they are trying to make the dash more L/R modular with one wiring harness and still provide switches, but, for what the rig costs, i'd rather not have dead space on the dash in front of me where i can see functions at a glance. It couldn't have saved that much to make it worth it.
Dan Grec
Expedition Leader
Yep, I sat in one at the Perth 4x4 show in November, and the guys there told me all about ordering and when deliveries start. In Oz, orders are 80% diesel, 20% gas. (But aussies always prefer diesel for long term touring).
My mini-kind of review from sitting in it is here:
-Dan
mk216v
Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
Axles are from Carrera.
Regarding Bosch service centers being able to supposedly service these (I don't believe this has been finalized for the USA yet, at least the direct info from Ineos has not mentioned this. Purchase and service info for the USA is still being released later in '23), I wouldn't give that TOO much credit. Having been a Bosch service center and knowing other Bosch service centers, many excellent shops are no longer Bosch service centers due to silly requirements from Bosch (Bosch logos on independent shop clothing, Bosch stickers and signs all over the lobby/shop, Bosch logos all over the paperwork, etc etc), AND many shops that are still Bosch service centers are unethical and provide horrific service to the customer, offer poor workmanship, and couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag. Of course the same holds true for many BMW dealerships, so YMMV.
Regarding Bosch service centers being able to supposedly service these (I don't believe this has been finalized for the USA yet, at least the direct info from Ineos has not mentioned this. Purchase and service info for the USA is still being released later in '23), I wouldn't give that TOO much credit. Having been a Bosch service center and knowing other Bosch service centers, many excellent shops are no longer Bosch service centers due to silly requirements from Bosch (Bosch logos on independent shop clothing, Bosch stickers and signs all over the lobby/shop, Bosch logos all over the paperwork, etc etc), AND many shops that are still Bosch service centers are unethical and provide horrific service to the customer, offer poor workmanship, and couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag. Of course the same holds true for many BMW dealerships, so YMMV.
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