INEOS Grenadier

[nickw]

Based on the interview w/Scott here:

Episode 127 Grenadier Prototype First Off-Road Drive Impressions - Expedition Portal

Summary: Matt Scott interviews Scott Brady on his first drive of the (prototype) Grenadier Trialmaster SUV from Ineos. The Grenadier represents a significant offering to the overland market, being the first build on purpose SUV for overlanding in several years (since the 200 TLC left the...

expeditionportal.com

I thought this was relevant:

Scott Brady: Yeah. It’s, you know, time’s gonna tell. I, I think that based upon everything I can see and the people that they have involved, I think we’re gonna be, we’re not gonna be looking at Land Cruiser reliability. We’re also not gonna be looking at Land Rover reliability. I think it’s gonna be kind of in the middle of the road. And it’s gonna be.

Matt: I’ll take it.

Scott Brady: And it’s gonna be simple enough. We’ll see. Yeah, I mean it is really too early to know. It would be purely speculation on my part. There are some concerns that people have voiced around the bmw drivetrain, uh, but it does seem that if you look at the reliability numbers for BMW in the last couple years, they’ve gone the other direction in a positive way.

 

[mjohns2]

I saw the Grenadier prototype in Denver in February 2022. The axles, suspension links, bracketry and prop shafts are, base on visual inspection only, equivalent to a full size heavy duty truck. They make the same parts in the Jeep Wrangler JL look undersized and not fit for purpose. Unfortunately we were not allowed to look under the hood. If nothing else I was curious to see how much room there is in the engine compartment.

@TCM Found this in another forum.

 

[Beowulf]

Tight, but not terrible. I’m guessing the diesel and petrol will be similar in fitment and clutter in the engine bay.

 

[SkiWill]

Tight, but not terrible. I’m guessing the diesel and petrol will be similar in fitment and clutter in the engine bay.

Safe bet since they B58 and N58 gasoline/petrol and diesel motors both use the same block from BMW. The picture does prompt some concern since all the VANOS stuff is tucked up under the cowl.

 

[SkiWill]

Axles are from Carrera.

Regarding Bosch service centers being able to supposedly service these (I don't believe this has been finalized for the USA yet, at least the direct info from Ineos has not mentioned this. Purchase and service info for the USA is still being released later in '23), I wouldn't give that TOO much credit. Having been a Bosch service center and knowing other Bosch service centers, many excellent shops are no longer Bosch service centers due to silly requirements from Bosch (Bosch logos on independent shop clothing, Bosch stickers and signs all over the lobby/shop, Bosch logos all over the paperwork, etc etc), AND many shops that are still Bosch service centers are unethical and provide horrific service to the customer, offer poor workmanship, and couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag. Of course the same holds true for many BMW dealerships, so YMMV.

I agree that even dealerships or Bosch certified shops don't guarantee competent mechanics. Had a Mercedes a while back that I will never have serviced at one particular rip off Bosch certified service center again.

Back when I had to haul and tow heavy, I had a Ram 2500 Cummins. On one occasion the service manager walked out to the waiting room and asked what knuckleheads did the last service because they over torqued the oil filter so badly. He didn't like it when I said, "your knuckleheads did the last service. Maybe you should talk to whoever signed the last invoice."

Then, it had an oil leak just before warranty ran out. The dealer was very good about honoring the warranty without any fight, but admitted, "it's going to be a while until I can get it scheduled. I only have one tech that I trust to actually do this properly." Very reassuring.

The only thing that makes me feel somewhat tolerant of the BMW powertrain in these vehicles is that Ineos is going to publish the service manual free of charge. No BS JLR Topix subscriptions, Mercedes subscriptions, etc. so I can actually see the proper way to service this powertrain and do it myself when I can't find a competent mechanic to do it, which is a real concern of mine regardless of the manufacturer. I've seen Toyota dealer serviced vehicles with broken oil filter mounts, and other ham fisted "fixes" as well.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I'll change the topic a little....

I thought what is described the ceiling aircraft controls in some writeups .... was cool (sort of, i guess, the bonanza i fly in doesnt have those.) ... but then i got to thinking, what would i want up there? I like to keep my head pointed straight and be able to glance at my controls.

once again, it's cool looking for sure. you get to feel like a machine operator. but there must have been a reason i moved my comms in my old fj40 from the overhead shelf to a tuffy back in the day.

hell my defender dash was as tight as it got, but, that just meant everything was easy to see and reach.

I get they are trying to make the dash more L/R modular with one wiring harness and still provide switches, but, for what the rig costs, i'd rather not have dead space on the dash in front of me where i can see functions at a glance. It couldn't have saved that much to make it worth it.

The factory auxiliary switches in our Bronco are up there, really work pretty well. Don't need them every day but nice and in the open for when you do. Dome light switches are up there in both the Bronco and my F-150.

No idea what Ineos is putting up there though.

In the land of 8"+ touchscreen radios the fear of having "dead space" on the dash is of little concern...

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The factory auxiliary switches in our Bronco are up there, really work pretty well. Don't need them every day but nice and in the open for when you do. Dome light switches are up there in both the Bronco and my F-150.

No idea what Ineos is putting up there though.

In the land of 8"+ touchscreen radios the fear of having "dead space" on the dash is of little concern...

The upper panel is for off-road accessories (lockers, wade mode I think, etc.) as well as auxiliary wiring (winch, lights, etc.). The main dash is for the more "close to home" controls (climate, seat heater buttons if equipped, radio, etc.).

 

[nickw]

View attachment 762121

@TCM Found this in another forum.

Judging from that pic - it's a engine pull to do a timing chain just like the BMW's along with everything else tucked in there just like a BMW. I think any / all of us can hop on the BMW forums to get a sense of how reliable these are along with what sort of maintenance req. will be needed.

I was hoping it would be much more simple.....not sure how you drop an engine any place that isn't a BMW dealership....

 

[SkiWill]

Judging from that pic - it's a engine pull to do a timing chain just like the BMW's along with everything else tucked in there just like a BMW. I think any / all of us can hop on the BMW forums to get a sense of how reliable these are along with what sort of maintenance req. will be needed.

I was hoping it would be much more simple.....not sure how you drop an engine any place that isn't a BMW dealership....

Obviously for a timing chain the engine would have to be pulled or transmission dropped. I think a full timing chain replacement is somewhat unlikely, though who knows as there are not a ton of high mileage engines to glean data from at this point. The far more common concern is repairing or servicing the VANOS system which is what controls the variable valve timing and will require special tools to complete. From what I have gleaned from the BMW community, expect a VANOS expedition in the 100-120k mile range and it can be done without pulling the engine. It's not cheap, and is complicated by the fact that the VANOS components will be located under the cowl, which is certainly disappointing, but not necessarily a deal breaker for me anyway.

Do I wish it had a simple naturally aspirated motor produced by someone other than BMW? Of course. I also wish I were better looking and more charismatic, but I deal with what reality gives me.

 

[nickw]

Obviously for a timing chain the engine would have to be pulled or transmission dropped. I think a full timing chain replacement is somewhat unlikely, though who knows as there are not a ton of high mileage engines to glean data from at this point. The far more common concern is repairing or servicing the VANOS system which is what controls the variable valve timing and will require special tools to complete. From what I have gleaned from the BMW community, expect a VANOS expedition in the 100-120k mile range and it can be done without pulling the engine. It's not cheap, and is complicated by the fact that the VANOS components will be located under the cowl, which is certainly disappointing, but not necessarily a deal breaker for me anyway.

Do I wish it had a simple naturally aspirated motor produced by someone other than BMW? Of course. I also wish I were better looking and more charismatic, but I deal with what reality gives me.

It's 100% likely unless you wanna push services intervals or expect to get rid of it sooner rather than later - I haven't seen any official documentation, but most timing chains are ~90-100k miles so on par with the Vanos if that data is correct, which is a full engine drop in a shop + $XXXX, never mind any mech issues in the field.

 

[2.ooohhh]

I'm VERY interested to see the technical manuals, BMW builds motors for multiple international markets often with quite varying specs. It's very possible that ineos could have requested a more robust international variant for this vehicle, but I will believe it when I see it. If not VANOS can be locked out and turned off within the ECU though emissions compliance could be tricky in some jurisdictions.


Historically timing chains on the BMW V8s need service more frequently than the smaller BMW motors mainly due to failures of the chain guides. I've currently got 2 of the inline 6's that are over 200k miles without having to touch the chains on them VANOS locked out on one, rebuilt on the second at 150k miles. Oil service on all BMW motors is key to long engine life in my experience.

 

[Highlander]

AND many shops that are still Bosch service centers are unethical and provide horrific service to the customer, offer poor workmanship, and couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag. Of course the same holds true for many BMW dealerships, so YMMV.

The unfortunate situation with the service in US (and many other developed countries).
The older generation that had at least some work ethic acquired during the glory days of the American manufacturing industry is already retiring or some even have already left the workforce.

The idea that customer is always right, however ruthless it sounds, it’s pretty much out from the culture. Now they feel they are doing your favor.
I once went to a local Firestone… boy it was a sh1thole, run by illiterate baboons.

On top of this extremely complex and overtly complicated modern technology. John Deer is being sued by framers because they can’t fix anything in the new tractors.

 

[Junx]

Like many, I put the money down to be in line, but I really doubt I’m going to to purchase anything with a BMW engine. I can’t even begin to express how unappealing the thought of that engine/tranny combo is to me. A light duty truck drivetrain from any other manufacturer would have been a vanilla choice, and perfect for the job. I just wonder who sits down to design a defender replacement, that fixes the defender reliability flaws, and picks what is essentially a car drivetrain. Weird.

Comically one of the most desirable defenders has a BMW 6 cylinder

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/09/01/lets-all-remember-the-bmw-powered-land-rover-defender/

and the Rover v8 was used in, uh... Everything.

The Coolest Cars Powered By The Legendary Rover V8

The Rover V8 is one of the most legendary engines in the automotive industry and has been used in several cars over the years.

www.hotcars.com

The chevy 250 straight six was in everything from bread trucks and pickups to camaro's and chevelles.

The myth of "car engine vs truck engine" is nonsense.

 

[toddz69]

The myth of "car engine vs truck engine" is nonsense.

In most, but not all instances, I'd agree with that. I would put forth the Ford 240/300 sixes were always designed as, and run as truck engines - they never made it into cars. The same could be said of the light duty diesel engines (Ford 6.9/7.3, GM 6.2/6.5 and Dodge 5.9 Cummins).

Todd Z.

 

[zimm]

Comically one of the most desirable defenders has a BMW 6 cylinder

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/09/01/lets-all-remember-the-bmw-powered-land-rover-defender/

and the Rover v8 was used in, uh... Everything.

The Coolest Cars Powered By The Legendary Rover V8

The Rover V8 is one of the most legendary engines in the automotive industry and has been used in several cars over the years.

www.hotcars.com

The chevy 250 straight six was in everything from bread trucks and pickups to camaro's and chevelles.

The myth of "car engine vs truck engine" is nonsense.

Telling me something is more desirable than a rover v8, isn't the same as telling me something is good.

if were gonna go all classic, keep in mind, the recipie for american pony cars was to take out the typical passenger car drivetrains, and replaced them with the high torque truck v8's, transmissions, and rear ends.