Is this a Unimog failure or a GXV failure? (Pic included)

[RMP&O]

I got three words....

BIG HEAVY TRUCKS!

 

[RMP&O]

Also,

Onboard welding may have saved them. Or simply having a handful of heavy duty load straps. 3-4 of those and I think it could have been driven to help. Or a combo of straps and onboard welder. You would think that a truck like that with everything onboard, a welder would also be there as well as some load straps, I know I would have these items in my Unimog blingbling camper. Also a winch may have been able to set up and to pull the bed back down into place, then weld it up, drive super slow to the nearest town. There are always options if you are crafty and prepared. I can't see much or very good from the picture but that doesn't look like a bomber mount to me for such a heavy bed.

Cheers

 

[pugslyyy]

Also,

Onboard welding may have saved them. Or simply having a handful of heavy duty load straps. 3-4 of those and I think it could have been driven to help. Or a combo of straps and onboard welder. You would think that a truck like that with everything onboard, a welder would also be there as well as some load straps, I know I would have these items in my Unimog blingbling camper. Also a winch may have been able to set up and to pull the bed back down into place, then weld it up, drive super slow to the nearest town. There are always options if you are crafty and prepared. I can't see much or very good from the picture but that doesn't look like a bomber mount to me for such a heavy bed.

Cheers

I agree on everything you say, but different people will approach the same situation differently. Their approach seems to have been 'full stop until it can be completely fixed back to factory spec', I'm much more of the 'fix it best you can with what you have available to get underway again' school. I do wonder that they only replace one mount (from what I read, may have missed it) - I'm assuming there are more than that, and if one went I would be pretty suspicious of the others.

Their blog is an interesting read, lots of lessons learned that they are good enough to share.

 

[Marv800]

Okay, so I just spent the better part of an hour reading the historical posts in whiteacorn's blog, and have arrived at some alarming conclusions. Now let me start by admitting that my expertise in offroad expedition vehicles is limited. However, I can tell you that my expertise in performance boating is exactly the opposite. Why is this important? Because in my estimation, the requirements for crafting a quality composite hull boat weighing 5 tons+ with a balsa core and proper rigging and an attention to detail to withstand the hostile marine environments at over 100mph on the water; probably isn't that different than from the requirements for building a quality camper body that's intended for the rigors and violence of offroad expedition travel. Both are extremely violent environments that require their machinery to perform at maximum effectiveness in order to achieve their mission.
.
In performance boating, the breakdown of machinery under duress often results in acute and catastrophic failure. In expedition travel, I think its less dramatic, but no less acute, likely resulting in stranding.
.
A similarity is that both cost upwards of $300,000 to get in the game. In boating, poor quality work doesn't survive for very long, as people's lives are at risk and word travels quickly in the small circle.
.
What I've seen in whiteacorn's blog about GXV's workmanship, to me, is nothing short of absolutely alarming and bordering on gross negligence. I do not know if this is an isolated series of failures, and not representative of their normal work, but what I see here is shocking.
.
I'm not even going to address the recent failure of the camper, as I don't know precisely what the failure mode is, but what I do want to address, are things I see clearly as shoddy workmanship at best, and outright negligence at the worst. I'm not here to rattle cages at all, and I don't know what folks here regard as "industry standard", but if the things I see here are the norm, than you folks need to demand better!
.
First of all electrical rigging:

REALLY?!?!? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?!? This is rigging that would fail high school shop classes! This is supposed to be an elite offroad expedition vehicle! This work wouldn't pass building code for a outhouse in Bolivia! Has the technician who rigged this have ZERO pride in workmanship?!?!
.
Particle board cabinetry:

This is a joke, right? when particle board gets wet, its bloats and turns into a wet, sloppy slush of glue and sawdust! pretty bad considering their plumbing failure flooded 50 gallons of hot water into the camper. Where did GXV source the cabinetry? IKEA?!?!
.
Heavy IKEA cabinetry sitting on water lines:

So now you have heavy-as-hell particle board cabinets sitting on plastic PVC water lines installed in a expedition vehicle that's intended for offroad extreme conditions.. what do you think will happen after a few cycles of bouncing up and down and chafing around?
.
I really am having a tough time understanding how GXV is in business if this is representative of the craftsmanship that they represent. In honesty, I can't help but wonder if this quality of work is just "accepted as the norm" in overland expedition vehicles. I don't know if the other manufacturers in this game have the same standards or if this is a low water mark in the industry. I'm just a silly go-fast boat owner that wants to tow my boat around the US, looking for a better solution than a crude "business class" Freightliner, but by the looks of this, i'd probably go back to something like this.
.
In the meantime. You people should demand more. For the money being spent on these things, you guys deserve better. This quality of craftsmanship in the performance boating world would be run out of town in a week.

 

[Victorian]

At Unicat:
We spend tons of time securing/ routing wires, hoses so that they can't move/rub. We put huge amounts of effort into keeping everything "water-/spill proof". The cabinetry was NOT made of particle board, we used marine grade high end plywood or fiberglass panels. If the boss would have seen me doing a cut out as shown in your picture, I would be kicked out in no time! I wish I could show you the difference in build quality...
Don't get me wrong, I wish every company, no matter where they are and what they are doing all success in the world, but if I would be on a trip around the world and my custom $$$$$$ truck would let me down as in this case, I would go balistic!
As for the mounts: As far as I know, Unimog only approves of this system http://www.unimogfreunde.de/News_Ticker/2002/191102/Rahmen1.jpg

 

[mhiscox]

Herr Moderator:

Is there merit in moving the powerboater's critique to a new thread so that this interesting, "real-time" thread doesn't turn into argumentative discussion among people who do and don't know how to build expedition campers about what is or is not acceptable practice? I, for one, prefer to continue to hear about this single episode and its resolution.

 

[FusoFG]

I, for one, prefer to continue to hear about this single episode and its resolution.

Mike,

The real time thread discussing this episode is on White Acorns blog. They have already fixed the mount problem and most of the other problems and are driving on down the road in Russia's far east.

Tom

 

[mhiscox]

The real time thread discussing this episode is on White Acorns blog. They have already fixed the mount problem and most of the other problems and are driving on down the road in Russia's far east.

Thanks, Buddy.

 

[Marv800]

Mike,

They have already fixed the mount problem and most of the other problems and are driving on down the road in Russia's far east.

Tom

Barely driving.. "In these conditions the GXV/Unimog is simply horrible. We have tried hard today to cover distance and all we could manage for the day was an average speed of 60km/h (36 mph) and that does not count rest breaks. The high center of gravity of the vehicle (thanks to the high and heavy camper) makes the vehicle bounce and rock all over the place. At times one is tempted to say it is un-driveable..." http://www.whiteacorn.com/post/rtw/130518

 

[Overland Hadley]

Barely driving.. "In these conditions the GXV/Unimog is simply horrible. We have tried hard today to cover distance and all we could manage for the day was an average speed of 60km/h (36 mph) and that does not count rest breaks. The high center of gravity of the vehicle (thanks to the high and heavy camper) makes the vehicle bounce and rock all over the place. At times one is tempted to say it is un-driveable..." http://www.whiteacorn.com/post/rtw/130518

I do not see this as a problem with the GXV or Unimog. It is simply what happens when you have a heavy camper up high on flexible mounts, on a vehicle that has some suspension travel. I have experienced this to a minor degree with my loaded Tacoma, it is part of the compromise of carrying your house on your vehicle.

 

[charlieaarons]

It may be a result of the camper mounting system. I did not get this feeling when driving thousands of miles of dirt/gravel roads in Australia.

Charlie

 

[haven]

The blog post linked above includes this sentence:
"Today we have traveled on very bad sealed roads, lots of potholes, and lots of changes in level and camber."

It's hard to know if an average speed of 36 mph is slow given the conditions. A road filled with frost heaves and potholes is no picnic to drive, particularly in a 20,000+ lb vehicle.

It's clear the owner of the vehicle wanted to go faster, and thought the vehicle was unsafe at higher speeds. So he slowed down. What is not clear is if _any_ vehicle of similar size could have gone faster with safety.

 

[Keyne]

Okay, so I just spent the better part of an hour reading the historical posts in whiteacorn's blog, and have arrived at some alarming conclusions. Now let me start by admitting that my expertise in offroad expedition vehicles is limited. However, I can tell you that my expertise in performance boating is exactly the opposite. Why is this important? Because in my estimation, the requirements for crafting a quality composite hull boat weighing 5 tons+ with a balsa core and proper rigging and an attention to detail to withstand the hostile marine environments at over 100mph on the water; probably isn't that different than from the requirements for building a quality camper body that's intended for the rigors and violence of offroad expedition travel. Both are extremely violent environments that require their machinery to perform at maximum effectiveness in order to achieve their mission.
.
In performance boating, the breakdown of machinery under duress often results in acute and catastrophic failure. In expedition travel, I think its less dramatic, but no less acute, likely resulting in stranding.
.
A similarity is that both cost upwards of $300,000 to get in the game. In boating, poor quality work doesn't survive for very long, as people's lives are at risk and word travels quickly in the small circle.
.
What I've seen in whiteacorn's blog about GXV's workmanship, to me, is nothing short of absolutely alarming and bordering on gross negligence. I do not know if this is an isolated series of failures, and not representative of their normal work, but what I see here is shocking.
.
I'm not even going to address the recent failure of the camper, as I don't know precisely what the failure mode is, but what I do want to address, are things I see clearly as shoddy workmanship at best, and outright negligence at the worst. I'm not here to rattle cages at all, and I don't know what folks here regard as "industry standard", but if the things I see here are the norm, than you folks need to demand better!
.
First of all electrical rigging:
REALLY?!?!? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?!? This is rigging that would fail high school shop classes! This is supposed to be an elite offroad expedition vehicle! This work wouldn't pass building code for a outhouse in Bolivia! Has the technician who rigged this have ZERO pride in workmanship?!?!
.
Particle board cabinetry:
This is a joke, right? when particle board gets wet, its bloats and turns into a wet, sloppy slush of glue and sawdust! pretty bad considering their plumbing failure flooded 50 gallons of hot water into the camper. Where did GXV source the cabinetry? IKEA?!?!
.
Heavy IKEA cabinetry sitting on water lines:
So now you have heavy-as-hell particle board cabinets sitting on plastic PVC water lines installed in a expedition vehicle that's intended for offroad extreme conditions.. what do you think will happen after a few cycles of bouncing up and down and chafing around?
.
I really am having a tough time understanding how GXV is in business if this is representative of the craftsmanship that they represent. In honesty, I can't help but wonder if this quality of work is just "accepted as the norm" in overland expedition vehicles. I don't know if the other manufacturers in this game have the same standards or if this is a low water mark in the industry. I'm just a silly go-fast boat owner that wants to tow my boat around the US, looking for a better solution than a crude "business class" Freightliner, but by the looks of this, i'd probably go back to something like this.
.
In the meantime. You people should demand more. For the money being spent on these things, you guys deserve better. This quality of craftsmanship in the performance boating world would be run out of town in a week.

I too have heard about concerns with GXV build issues; seems insane to me at the prices these rigs cost. For the cost of these things with the expectation of where they are supposed to be used (in extreme conditions like desert and tundra) it is alarming to see the issues White Acorn has experienced... all their issues could have been much worse/deadly if they had occurred in the wrong area (e.g. imagine 50 gallons of frozen water in the interior).

I too have experience with yachts and I am surprised the wiring and chafe gear seem to borrow from the regular RV industry and NOT from the marine industry. They do use some marine components and "style" but from the photos it appears that they haven't gone far enough with the implementation. In comparison some yacht wiring and system installations are works of art and built to last over many miles of rough and wet conditions. Similar to buying an equivalent class of yacht, all yachts are not created equal, a potential owner in this price range should do a full inspection before hand including looking into the details of the build process, system installation, etc.

Its too bad really because it would be nice to have a Unimog based expedition camper supplier in the US. Maybe these issues will prompt Unicat and others to come to the US with some of their products. I know Unicat has one model available but it would be nice to see Unimog based campers here as well.

These issues do make Earthroamer sound pretty attractive (they did have Ford engine issues however). They have more production to be able to work these issues out. Maybe they could make a camper on a different platform than a Ford?

 

[mhiscox]

These issues do make Earthroamer sound pretty attractive . . .

Ummm . . . so this

unlabeled, undiagrammed sprawl is some of the wiring and pneumatic plumbing in my XV-JP, the third one built. And the owners of the earliest XV-LTs have lots of stories, too. But let's keep it all in perspective. I'm not defending shoddy practice--and I've seen plenty across my custom vehicles--but I also recognize there are limits to what can be done on a non-serial production camper.

If the quality goes up, the price will go up, and I suspect that explains some of why the Unicat equivalent of an XV-LT costs about twice as much. In fact, I'm pretty certain that deciding how much can be charged for a custom build while still keeping a buyer is the trickiest part of the expedition vehicle business.

If a builder "oversells" the capability of their vehicle, go ahead and hang them. But don't think that all of the engineering and highest-possible build quality you might find in an expensive yacht could be put into an expedition camper without it being reflected in the already-considerable cost.

 

[suntinez]

While I hate seeing Rob & Nina have all these troubles, this thread has brought their blog to my attention again. I saw this rig at OVX12 when it was brand new to them. In typical classy style, they continue to share their problems and solutions in near-real-time - no small feat on the road.

May I suggest that there is an opportunity for a design enhancement here.

The best part is that they continue to have fun in spite of all the problems.

I bet someone's missing their Tiger about now.