J8 Expedition Project:

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Remember the cantilever effect. If you add weight away from the pivot point it has the multiplier of the distance from the pivot point.

As pointed out the torsion bar is rated to make the opening and closing of the roof section easy. Increasing the spring rate to accommodate extra weight on the roof would then become an small engineering problem for each case. How much does the item weigh? where will it be mounted? how long is the item? is the weight evenly distributed along it's length ?

What happens if the weight on the roof changes or you decide to add more weight than intended? How do we warranty a product like this when we have no real control over the extra weight added to the roof? Not impossible but complex.

Lance does have a good idea of the solar panel being hinged at the front so that when the lid is open the panel can swing down and be positioned to catch the sun. The new issue now is that the solar panel would have to be mounted all the way to the front of the roof (when open) to allow it to pivot away from the roof. Rather than keeping the weigh close to the pivot point it's putting it out to the furthers point, maximizing the multiplying effect of the distance from the pivot point.

More issues are:
Torsion bars are not inexpensive, they are custom made in batches not off the shelf items. If we were to produce torsion bars at three different ratings we would have to stock three times the inventory, and store three times the inventory. Would increasing the price of the Habitat from $6000.00 to $6500.00 be justified?

Does the increased load on the torsion bar negatively effect the anchor arms that are embedded in the roof and shell of the Habitat? Should that be modeled in Solid Works and the expense passed along to the consumer?

So as you can see a simple question never has a simple answer when you think it through as a manufacturer.
 

jingram

Adventurer
Solar would not likely be a logical fitment to the roof of this application, given that when it is closed, you are likely driving (and charging), and when it is open, the solar panels would be facing the hood ;)

LOL, touche' ;) sort of a moot point isn't it! I keep coming at this from a sailing perspective where topping off our battery banks is a big deal and we are stationary anchored up in some cove or lagoon for a week waiting for a break in the weather, etc. The reality is that you are most likely not going to be too stationary as the JK is a little small for a long term base camp, although it is a possibility... say surfing for a few days on a remote beach in Baja. Here solar on the roof would be a nice thing so some kind of of rotating flip mount would be pretty sweet.
 
Last edited:

jingram

Adventurer
Remember the cantilever effect. If you add weight away from the pivot point it has the multiplier of the distance from the pivot point.

As pointed out the torsion bar is rated to make the opening and closing of the roof section easy. Increasing the spring rate to accommodate extra weight on the roof would then become an small engineering problem for each case. How much does the item weigh? where will it be mounted? how long is the item? is the weight evenly distributed along it's length ?

What happens if the weight on the roof changes or you decide to add more weight than intended? How do we warranty a product like this when we have no real control over the extra weight added to the roof? Not impossible but complex.

Lance does have a good idea of the solar panel being hinged at the front so that when the lid is open the panel can swing down and be positioned to catch the sun. The new issue now is that the solar panel would have to be mounted all the way to the front of the roof (when open) to allow it to pivot away from the roof. Rather than keeping the weigh close to the pivot point it's putting it out to the furthers point, maximizing the multiplying effect of the distance from the pivot point.

More issues are:
Torsion bars are not inexpensive, they are custom made in batches not off the shelf items. If we were to produce torsion bars at three different ratings we would have to stock three times the inventory, and store three times the inventory. Would increasing the price of the Habitat from $6000.00 to $6500.00 be justified?

Does the increased load on the torsion bar negatively effect the anchor arms that are embedded in the roof and shell of the Habitat? Should that be modeled in Solid Works and the expense passed along to the consumer?

So as you can see a simple question never has a simple answer when you think it through as a manufacturer.

As always Martyn, excellent explanation and much appreciated. Certainly know you guys are busy and the fact that you took the time to respond speaks volumes about you AT as a company.

Every point you brought up is valid from a manufacturing perspective and you are right. You're dealing with a niche market and it would be best to target the largest common denominator. I guess I just still have a hard time imaging 10 lbs being a big deal on the mechanism, but you're right to take a hard and fast stand to make sure owners understand where they will be in regards to warranty claims if they exceed the spec of the torsion spring.

For me it is a bit of a moot point. All I really wanted was some kind of mechanism to attach a couple of yakima or thule crossbars to haul my kayaks. Sure I know I have to take them off and put them back on every day if I am in transit, but small price to pay for such a perfect little package! I know I am in the minority on this though, lol.
 

kb7our

Explorer
LOL, touche' ;) sort of a moot point isn't it! I keep coming at this from a sailing perspective where topping off our battery banks is a big deal and we are stationary anchored up in some cove or lagoon for a week waiting for a break in the weather, etc. The reality is that you are most likely not going to be too stationary as the JK is a little small for a long term base camp, although it is a possibility... say surfing for a few days on a remote beach in Baja. Here solar on the roof would be a nice thing so some kind of of rotating flip mount would be pretty sweet.

Tossing a flexible solar panel on top of a Fiamma F35 awning mounted to the side of the Habitat seems like an option when camped. Get the extra center support pole and extra weight on the awning fabric should not be a problem.
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
Dan,

That is correct... this habitat makes absolutely no use of the factory hard top. The entire top is replaced so if you have a soft top only model, there are no additional purchases required. On the habitat version shown on the j8, you will notice that on the top does not have side windows the factory top has, rather it has those sections molded in and you can either add windows, a small cargo compartment or leave as is.

Ahh, that makes a lot more sense.
Thanks very much again for the reply,

-Dan
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
As always Martyn, excellent explanation and much appreciated. Certainly know you guys are busy and the fact that you took the time to respond speaks volumes about you AT as a company.

Every point you brought up is valid from a manufacturing perspective and you are right. You're dealing with a niche market and it would be best to target the largest common denominator. I guess I just still have a hard time imaging 10 lbs being a big deal on the mechanism, but you're right to take a hard and fast stand to make sure owners understand where they will be in regards to warranty claims if they exceed the spec of the torsion spring.

For me it is a bit of a moot point. All I really wanted was some kind of mechanism to attach a couple of yakima or thule crossbars to haul my kayaks. Sure I know I have to take them off and put them back on every day if I am in transit, but small price to pay for such a perfect little package! I know I am in the minority on this though, lol.

I haven't looked into this but it may be more feasible to attach the rack towers to the vertical walls of the lower shell, and use quick release towers and cross bars. That way the stress would be taken by the vertical walls. The tower cross bar combination would have to be removed prior to opening the lid.
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
Dan,
That is correct... this habitat makes absolutely no use of the factory hard top...

I've been thinking a bit about this and I'm really curious about where the new top in manufactured. I imagine you guys have some other company manufacture the top, and I'm wondering if custom tops would be possible?
I'm interested in getting a top made that has a little more head room in the cargo area, not unlike the roof on a Defender or Troopy - It just goes up a little from the windscreen, maybe 10 or 15cm.

Also on the J8, you guys mentioned you were going to swap to a traditional high(er) snorkel - I'm curious if there is any progress on that?

-Dan
 

marshal

Burrito Enthusiast
Anything new with J8's being able to come into the USA?

you can order them through AEV, but they're not street legal due to crash testing and emissions requirements. im sure if you're in an area that doesnt check emissions, you could register it under a custom vehicle tag
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
you can order them through AEV, but they're not street legal due to crash testing and emissions requirements. im sure if you're in an area that doesnt check emissions, you could register it under a custom vehicle tag

Thanks. I meant anything new with them becoming street legal. I thought AEV was working on getting NHTSA/etc approval?
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
The AEV J8 program allows them to be 'street legal' under most states 'kit car' laws ( last time I looked ) All you have to have under those laws is basic safety equipment. You buy the rolling chassis from AEV, not a complete vehicle. You then purchase the motor/transmission from a supporting Jeep dealership and have it installed or install it yourself ( AEV cannot do the install since they sold you the chassis ).

The hold up currently is Chrysler itself. Basically they burned a lot of bridges when they when bankrupt and are having a hard time getting the parts streams back up and running.

Last time i talked with AEV they where basically just waiting for parts from Chrysler with orders in hand.....
 

mk216v

Der Chef der Fahrzeuge
The AEV J8 program allows them to be 'street legal' under most states 'kit car' laws ( last time I looked ) All you have to have under those laws is basic safety equipment. You buy the rolling chassis from AEV, not a complete vehicle. You then purchase the motor/transmission from a supporting Jeep dealership and have it installed or install it yourself ( AEV cannot do the install since they sold you the chassis ).

The hold up currently is Chrysler itself. Basically they burned a lot of bridges when they when bankrupt and are having a hard time getting the parts streams back up and running.

Last time i talked with AEV they where basically just waiting for parts from Chrysler with orders in hand.....

Thanks. I'm presuming this is out for us in Oregon based on line #3 below(in bold);

Custom Built Car Registration in Oregon

The following types of vehicles qualify for custom-built or reconstructed vehicle registration with the Oregon Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV):

* An automobile with a body that resembles and primarily is a particular model or make of vehicle, and:

* Has not been rebuilt by a manufacturer

* Is not built in a factory where year, model, and make are assigned

* A vehicle that is not a replica

* A motor truck that has been rebuilt using a component kit, if the kit manufacturer assigns a vehicle identification number (VIN), and provides a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin (MCO) for the kit

To obtain registration for a custom-built car or reconstructed vehicle in Oregon, do the following:

* Fill out the Application for Title and Registration

* Ensure the "Reconstruction/Assembled/Replica" section is completed, or use the Assembled, Reconstructed or Replica Vehicle Certification Form

* Record the odometer mileage, if applicable

* Provide Oregon title or salvage title

* Have the vehicle emissions tested at DEQ (required for residents of the Portland and Medford areas only

* Provide a bill of sale for all major reconstructed parts (including body, engine, and kit)

* Provide proof of insurance if registering the vehicle and at least one current owner is still on the title

* Get a VIN inspection at a regular or full-service DMV location

* Provide previous owner's release of interest, which could include:

* A signature on the back of the title

* Bill of sale

* Lien release

* Calculate fees, which may include:

* Title transaction

* VIN inspection fee

* Registration renewal

* Plate fee or replacement fee

Next, take the appropriate documents to a regular or full-service DMV location.

http://www.dmv.org/or-oregon/custom-built-cars.php

:( :(
 

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