Lifts on Expedition Vehicles

[preacherman]

I love crawling under trucks to look at different set ups. When I drove across Africa last year I never saw one truck with a lift. Lots of mud tires, some lockers (all ARB), tons o winches, but not one lift. I did see lots of OME heavy springs and shocks and one 4x4 shop had a 2" lift on the shelf but said it had been there for over a year. Overall they seemed to be more worried about tires, traction, and recovery.

We drove some wicked routes and got stuck several times, blew out several shock bushings and even a few shocks but never ran into anything where a lift would have helped us out..lockers, now thats a different story.

 

[calamaridog]

Most factory equipped vehicles could use heavier spring rates to support the additional weight of the equipment we tend to carry.

My 2000 Land Cruiser was mall ready, complete with "P" rated tires and soft factory springs. No thanks.

The OME suspension upgrade I added made the vehicle perform like it should have from the factory.

 

[stevenmd]

Wow, this thread has been a great read. Now let me add another question: Which type of suspension - coil or leaf - would be better for expedition type travel and why?:Mechanic:

 

[Redline]

x2 on the Mall Rating, 4Runner was the same.

But OME gives lots of capability for little cash.

Most factory equipped vehicles could use heavier spring rates to support the additional weight of the equipment we tend to carry.

My 2000 Land Cruiser was mall ready, complete with "P" rated tires and soft factory springs. No thanks.

The OME suspension upgrade I added made the vehicle perform like it should have from the factory.

 

[OS-Aussie]

<open can of worms>

Fun topic

Ok, my take on this subject.

The trails you run will select the tire size, this will then set if lift is needed or if just resetting the springs is a valid solution. (Upgraded springs can address soooo many issues and even improve ride) The trails will also make the need for lockers or even four wheel drive for you. (importance of wheel base is another topic) Lift is for break-over/clearance or to clear tires. Most lifts don't increase wheel travel, strange as that may sound until you see the long bump stops.

Sadly however some people go crazy on lift to clear their tires. I have parked beside Jeeps with 33's that sit higher than my Jeep on 40's. Center of gravity is important and many people appear to love to load their roof racks with all kinds of heavy things, this can impact the center of gravity more than lift. I am mindful the pack anything with weight as low as possible and consider the upper areas the reserve of light and bulky items.

So the initial starting point is where you want to go and what you need to get there safely and effectively. The statements in this thread are correct in that most targeted ExPo trips are not that hard core for clearance but require durability of suspension. It is the same in Australia, most places people select to visit require only robust tires, then maybe a roo bar, spot lights and long range tanks. (Diesel Toyota's rule in Australia, you can get parts almost anywhere)

The group requirements split for off-road cross country travel. A couple of years ago I ran into the Rover club on a trail on CA highway four, they were having all sorts of trouble on modest trail for most Jeeps (nice group of guys). The true lesson here is that different vehicles suit different applications. A stock Rubicon in the Sierra rocks works very well until you hit real big rocks. A LR3 for a nice gravel road is just joy, and Mogs are fun until you have to dig out a bogged one, then you wish for a Samurai. Then you run into those Toyota pickups turned into tube buggy hybrids. Oops, off topic I think.

Big tires roll over rocks better than little ones, but big tires often break stock things. Standard tires on many vehicles have gotten bigger over the last twenty years, a good example is the new JK which only needs a couple in inches of lift for 35's or a touch more for 37's. Only five years ago this was the realm of hard core, now they are mall crawlers for soccer mums.

How many portal members know the total weight of their rig in full trail prep ? Or the load on each tire ? This is a real eye opener for nearly every one. You may have issues just because of the total weight on the suspension. Now there is a good topic for the Engineers...... mass, spring rates, rebound, up travel, droop it's hurting my head already.

<close my can>

 

[alaskantinbender]

coils

Wow, this thread has been a great read. Now let me add another question: Which type of suspension - coil or leaf - would be better for expedition type travel and why?:Mechanic:

M2cw is for coil springs.
The heavy unimog can cary large loads and still have good axel articulation with coils.
I carry 2 cords of firewood in my unimog 404 and drive it over and thru very rough terrain that would damage a typical leafspring equiped truck. I wouldent even think about doing it with my F350.
leaf springs need to be stiffer to carry bigger loads and it limits travel.
Leafs can give good axel articulation but at the expense of weight carrying ability.
Trucks I have driven in the past with coil springs have always given a better ride and performed well over the rough stuff. As I think about it most of my current fleet of projects have coils at least in the front suspension.


Regards,

Jim

 

[Spikepretorius]

Leaf springs don't come close to a coil spring.

 

[stevenmd]

<open can of worms>The group requirements split for off-road cross country travel. A couple of years ago I ran into the Rover club on a trail on CA highway four, they were having all sorts of trouble on modest trail for most Jeeps (nice group of guys). <close my can>

LOL... I think I was on that trip. Was it Blue Lakes (aka Deer valley) or slick Rock? IIRC, there was one guy on the trip who had his Disco II lifted about 6" but was running street tires. He had soooooooo much trouble at the "gatekeeper". We let the jeepers go ahead of us b/c of him.

That is my favorite trail, a few water crossings, great place to camp about 1/2 way through. If you ever make it out here again, we do that trail every June, unless the snow pack is was too high over the winter, rendering the water crossing impassable until July.

Back to topic... I have seen leaf spring 109's flex more than you think... but then again, that doesn't translate to expedition. For trail use only, there is a lot you can do to a leaf spring to make it flex like crazy (see pic). But for expedition use, I could see how it wouldn't hold up to the weight.

 

[alaskantinbender]

Nice looking 109.......I shouldn’t look at those too long.......:drool:


Jim

 

[madizell]

Yes. If this were not so, all heavy trucks would be a mile high. Load carrying capacity is a function of spring rate, not lift height. Look at some of the 3/4 and one ton Ford and Chevy trucks and you will see front leaf springs that are either flat or upside down with nearly no arch, yet they carry the load.

The problem most of us face in this regard is that springs that are readily available have been built around standard vehicles with a limited set of assumptions, and the over the counter springs that you will see are either stock height, or lift height, but not adjusted for load.

If you really need to carry a heavier load but don't want to lift (or at least not overlift) the vehicle, contact a custom spring builder. They will need the actual weight of the loaded vehicle, measured at each of the four tires, and the degree of lift you want. Springs can be built for any purpose.

Example: I have National Spring sets on the rear (used to be all four corners) of my CJ-7. These are 10 leaf packs with very thin leaves. I provided the weight of the vehicle measured digitally at each corner with circle track scales with weight to the nearest half-pound. I wanted 2 inches of lift, as the balance of lift needed was provided by spring-over and body lift. National built what I needed, and even though my Jeep is 5,300 pounds (nearly 1,600 more than the nominal weight of a CJ-7 soft-top vehicle) the springs carry the load and the lift was 2 inches on the mark.

 

[Redline]

I have been spoiled with coils. First on a Rubicon and now on a 4Runner, both with Old Man Emu.

Leaf springs don't come close to a coil spring.

 

[OS-Aussie]

LOL... I think I was on that trip. Was it Blue Lakes (aka Deer valley) or slick Rock? IIRC, there was one guy on the trip who had his Disco II lifted about 6" but was running street tires. He had soooooooo much trouble at the "gatekeeper". We let the jeepers go ahead of us b/c of him.

That is my favorite trail, a few water crossings, great place to camp about 1/2 way through. If you ever make it out here again, we do that trail every June, unless the snow pack is was too high over the winter, rendering the water crossing impassable until July.

Back to topic... I have seen leaf spring 109's flex more than you think... but then again, that doesn't translate to expedition. For trail use only, there is a lot you can do to a leaf spring to make it flex like crazy (see pic). But for expedition use, I could see how it wouldn't hold up to the weight.

Deer Valley, one of my favorite trails up there also. Love the area around the second creek crossing. I used to trail boss that trip each year for my CA Jeep club. There was also a cool shortened Disco in the Rover group. Great thing about the portal is all the different brands. I was heart broken not to be able to buy a new Diesel 110 when we moved here from Australia and ended up with a Rubicon.

 

[stevenmd]

There was also a cool shortened Disco in the Rover group

Was it orange? It is a rangie owned by Mark P. It has been featured in a magazine article or two. Mark is a great guy. I have many pics of "The Orange Rover" on my external drive... somewhere around here. Luckily I saved everything onto an external hard drive just before it took a dump. I also have the first overland adventure to be filmed by Land Rover - the one from London to Cape Town. I think I'll dig it out and watch it today!:jumping:

 

[madizell]

I have been spoiled with coils. First on a Rubicon and now on a 4Runner, both with Old Man Emu.

Same rules apply for coils. Spring rates carry load. Spring length dictates degree of lift and travel limitations. And there a number of spring makers who make custom coils.

 

[lowenbrau]

My expeditions are limited so far to North America where I feel very comfortable with my abilities to address any reliablilty issues that I have introduced by modifying my vehicle. I find that a lot of overlanders have very limited mechanical abiity and if I were in that boat I'd be fiddling a different tune. I design and build my rigs myself and repair them on the trail.

Far from a rock crawler, I like to take my rig to Rubicon or Alaska or Moab and I take pride in the fact that I drive thousands of KM each way to the trail, run it and then go home and use the same rig to drive to work. Finding the fine line between roadability and trailability is a quest I have been pursuing for a long time. I didn't think I'd gone too far with my BJ70 on 35s so I built my BJ74 with 37s. It can be a handful in the wind on rutted highways if I try to hold 120 kph but I've put 25,000 km on it this year. My next rig will be a HZJ75 troopie and I'll likley go back to 35s.