Long Jeep.....chasing unicorns

Clutch

<---Pass
I think solidworks isn't really that bad. If your at all mechanical you will get it pretty quick. You basically build parts like you would in real life really.....Get a block of material and carve out what you want. It gets easier as you use it more. There are some things that are really hard but most of the basic stuff is pretty simple. The sheetmetal stuff for 2d profile cutting can be a bit of a headache at first but it gets easier as you go. Hours is hours....the longer you work with it the better you get....

No mucking....I like long threads with lots of questions, answers, ideas, and tangents :)

thanks for the info.

*thumbs-up*
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Heaters....

I was thinking about heat last night. I think I have a few options.

One is to use a factory YJ/CJ heater assembly that fits on the passenger side. This would generally require all the factory cables and controls. There should be a hole in the cowl for fresh air also. I rate the factory heater box a 'meh', I guess. It just seems kinda bulky and complex for what you get. I would most likely have to adapt some extra stuff for the TJ shaped cowl and new defrost ducts.

So I went looking for something a little more simple and came up with this....



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-50616-vuz

This is a compact middle of the road heater/defrost unit from Vintage air. It is a nice compact unit that seems like it would be a good fit. It has floor heat and two outlets for defrost. You can blend from one to the other. Everything, including the fan, is controlled by a single switch witch I really like. The control switch integrates a cable with an electric switch, no vacuum required. Vintage has a few defrost ducts that look like they would work pretty well. I think this unit would be small enough that it could fit above the tunnel behind the middle of the dash.

For the defrost ducts I was thinking I could add a Y-fitting to allow two vents to be added on the outer edge of the dash to blow on the windows ( or hands ) in cold weather to keep the side windows defrosted. Most of the modern vents can be closed off easy enough to force more flow to the defrost when needed?

I am just after a simple system to provide heat. I don't want a super huge complex system that had ducts and piping everywhere. Think simple. The outer vents at this point are very optional to keep things even more simple. You can always crack a window to help with defrost and fresh air.

I'm coming from a 1942 flat fender with no doors, no top, and no heat.....anything will be a huge improvement! :)
Any thoughts?
 

Lee_N

Member
Tangent: Any engineer who says Solidworks is a steep learning curve needs to spend some time with a *real* (said with as much sarcasm as you can imagine) CAD program like I-Deas ... I wish, with as much wishing as one could muster, that I could convince the powers that be at my company, that Solidworks would be a worthwhile investment for us ... but it hasn't happened yet and I don't see it going any time soon (PTC Creo or NX will likely be where we go, now that I-Deas is going away).
<snip>

As someone who learned on I-DEAS, supported users on NX, got laid off and dabbled in Solidworks, then transitioned to CATIA, you will find NX similar to Solidworks, since both are a Parasolid based modeler. Personally, I HATE CATIA. Even I-DEAS seems more intuitive to learn than CATIA.

For those who want to try some 3D modeling, PTC has the Creo Eelements/Direct Modeling Express 4.0 as a free download. It's a direct modeler, meaning you directly edit the model instead of editing the parameters that built the features. You can build assemblies up to 60 unique parts and is free to use as long as you like once registered. And no, I don't work for PTC. Just design machines for a living.

Back on track, since I have a YJ, I'd say don't use their seat sliders. There are some cross braces that would make an under seat storage box difficult. The heater (which is huge) has 2 defroster ducts and no side ducts. The settings are defrost (with fan), heat (with fan), and vent (no fan). Your option looks better but I would think bringing in some outside air may help with fogging. I semm to recall someone saying a heater from an Accord or Civic is compact and might work well. YJ wipers might work. They mount on the windshield frame instead of like a TJ, which mounts in the cowl.
 
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skibum315

Explorer
As someone who learned on I-DEAS, supported users on NX, got laid off and dabbled in Solidworks, then transitioned to CATIA, you will find NX similar to Solidworks, since both are a Parasolid based modeler. Personally, I HATE CATIA. Even I-DEAS seems more intuitive to learn than CATIA.
Well that's reassuring ... thanks! I used I-Deas 9, SolidEdge (don't recall a version), Solidworks 2000 & 2003 and 2D AutoCAD while at school for my degree; have used Pro/E Wildfire and Wildfire 2.0, Solidworks 2005 & 2008, and most recently I-Deas 12 & 15 (v15 almost exclusively for the last couple of years) since starting work full-time. The transition process is complicated by large amounts of heritage data that we need to maintain & have ready access to, as well as trying to balance and manage the complications of several ongoing design efforts (not to mention the sheer weight and inertia brought on by the size of the company & its attendant bureaucracy ... which is quite large) - needless to say, it's been an almost glacial process. Fortunately - or no, depending on perspective, I guess - I've only had to be peripherally involved.

Back onto topic, sort-of, Creo Elements sounds promising, especially for personal needs. Sketchup was also mentioned, however given past CAD experience, I found it not at all intuitive or easy to learn ... in fact, it was downright maddening for me. Perhaps it's just a matter of spending the time with it, though ... someone starting fresh may have an easier time, however.

And, really now, back to Metcalf's latest set of questions: I think you're on the right track, in looking at the hot-rod style heaters and wiper solutions ... on the face of it, that seems like possibly the most straight forward solution. Though, if I'm honest, I don't have any personal experience from which to draw advice.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
If all you need is 2D cad stuff for profile cutting Draftsight works pretty dang well, and its free. I gave up my Autocad seat to another engineer and just use it instead for older files or the odd dxf/dwg edit that comes up.

http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight/overview/

Back to the the jeep project....

I think most of the hot rod stuff is going to be much more simple to install. I also don't need to install most of it right away. I can get to the roller/mockup stage, maybe even shake down, and then go back and finish some stuff up more. To me, it is important to keep the project efficient in its work load. Detail stuff takes time for sure. I do really want a few more amenities in this vehicle, but on some levels it is just going to be a larger version of my flat fender.

My research project for today is in cab electronics. I would like to have gauges, gps, and some tunes BUT I want a simple clean affordable solution. With a modern ECU running the engine I think that something like an OBD2 gauge would give me all the major information I need directly from the computer ( tach, speedo, water temp, oil pressure, etc ). I would like to basically find a unit that will do all the functions in a single somewhat affordable unit......and have it be durable in an off road vehicle. I have read about people using Ipad's or other tablets but I haven't seen too many that would stand up really well to the off road vehicle environment. This unit seems to be winning...

http://www.drewtech.com/enthusiast/products/dashdaq.html

My only issue is that I wish it had a larger screen and was able to be flush mounted a little easier and cleaner without cords having to go in from every direction....

Anyone have any other ideas?
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
All in one affordable electronics...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Android-Tablet-as-Car-PC/

The Samsung Galaxy Tab 7 has a nice vehicle dock available from the factory. The dock can be modified to be mounted to a flat surface easy enough.

I'm pretty familiar with the Android stuff. OBD2 gauges are easy with a bluetooth dongle and the Torque app. GPS is easy. Tunes are easy. I think a 7" screen would be a pretty nice size without getting too huge and hard to mount ( there is not a nice vehicle dock for the 10" version that I know of ).

I wonder how long a tablet would hold up in a jeep however? The mount looks pretty good to keep things firmly mounted. It isn't lockable though so I would need to figure something out to keep things from walking away. Pulling the tablet out of the dock and locking it in the center console should work. Maybe I can come up with something a little more ingenuous.

This would basically get the cost of the electronics package WAY down. I would have to wire in a small amp to run a few speakers for tunes if I want. The OBD2 dongle is cheap. The tablet is about $180 or less now. The apps are very cheap.

Any thoughts?
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
Any thoughts?

How often do the guages update when connected over OBDII ?

When built my own interface in ~2003, it seemed most cars would spend their CPU time actually running the engine, and they'd only update OBD stuff every 5-30ish seconds.

Maybe it's different now?

-Dan
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
Everything I have seen lately is pretty instant. There is more than one manufacturer that offers primary gauges that run off the OBD2 signal. Any more the whole vehicle is electric anyways and probably pulling the same signals for gauges anyways. With fuel cut on the engine rpm and GPS avaliable for speed I don't really see much of any issue if the guage isn't instantly responsive to changes?
 

Dan Grec

Expedition Leader
I don't really see much of any issue if the guage isn't instantly responsive to changes?

Right on. I was thinking it would be a pain if the guages only update every few seconds and "jump around" if you know what I mean.
You could try to get someone with the same engine/ECU to test it out for you...

-Dan
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
There are lots of youtube videos of the torque app running. Everything looks pretty dang smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the visual response is dampened from the raw data....
 

skibum315

Explorer
I'm not sure how I'd feel about wanting to have monitoring, mapping, and entertainment all running on the same device ... I think there's at least some vehicle status stuff that I'd want 'any-time' access to. But that's just first blush thoughts ... I think, though, that a basic dedicated instrumentation package (RPM, fuel level, trans temp, main bus voltage, oil pressure & engine temp ... at least as a start, but maybe some of those could just be handled by 'out of range' idiot lights) and then the tablet to run everything else, could be good.

Have you checked out Dakota Digital? They're a name that seems to come up a lot. Also Race Pack ...
 
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MotoDave

Explorer
Is the scangauge system car specific, or could you get one for any vehicle that used a 5.3 and get all of the aux info (trans temps, etc)? Not as pretty of an interface as a tablet and the torque app.

Dang, that would be cool for my Scout 80 application except I'm pre-OBDII. Will definitely look into it if I swap out to a LS series engine.

I'm sort of attached to the stock scout gauge layout, going to try to either refurbish the stock multi function gauge or try to make one with the same function using modern movements. Speed, coolant temp and fuel, plus a few dummy lights, what more do you really usually need?
18490a_237214.jpgPhoto05161741_zpsf378fcfa.jpg
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I'm not sure how I'd feel about wanting to have monitoring, mapping, and entertainment all running on the same device ... I think there's at least some vehicle status stuff that I'd want 'any-time' access to. But that's just first blush thoughts ... I think, though, that a basic dedicated instrumentation package (RPM, fuel level, trans temp, main bus voltage, oil pressure & engine temp ... at least as a start, but maybe some of those could just be handled by 'out of range' idiot lights) and then the tablet to run everything else, could be good.

Have you checked out Dakota Digital? They're a name that seems to come up a lot. Also Race Pack ...

yeah. I have looked at most of the other options....most of them are what I would call very expensive.

I run my flat fender on a very basic gauge system and it works fine....just tach, oil pressure, vacuum, and a widband O2 meter. That is plenty of information for me. The number one gauge I watch is temperature because the little guy is just marginal that way.

The more stuff you add the more weight and complexity there is. I admit I am a pretty big minimalist. The computer has a fuel cut rev limited so do you REALLY need a tach. I'm just thinking simple. The torque app can provide every gauge you want to look at....but you don't really NEED then to drive the vehicle. It also provides trouble codes and alarms if I am reading things right. The factory ECU can also be hooked up to an error light easy enough I think. That could be front, center, and bright. I think the computer will protect the engine in a lot of instances.

About the only gauge that the OBD2 stuff can't really do in this application I think is fuel level. I will probably have to run a separate gauge for that....

Is the scangauge system car specific, or could you get one for any vehicle that used a 5.3 and get all of the aux info (trans temps, etc)? Not as pretty of an interface as a tablet and the torque app.

Dang, that would be cool for my Scout 80 application except I'm pre-OBDII. Will definitely look into it if I swap out to a LS series engine.

I'm sort of attached to the stock scout gauge layout, going to try to either refurbish the stock multi function gauge or try to make one with the same function using modern movements. Speed, coolant temp and fuel, plus a few dummy lights, what more do you really usually need?
View attachment 173301View attachment 173300

From what I have been reading all these gauges are OBD2 univesal. Some of them also an 'enhanced' option that is manufacturer specific for more network information.

Speed can be from the OBD2 port and/or from a GPS drive. Heck. I don't even have a speedo in the flat fender and its fine. You can play the mental math game where you memorize what speed your going in what gear. With the automatic that is a little harder. Going to fast isn't usually an issue for me. If it bothered me I could always use the tailhousing on the np205 to drive an independent mechanical ( or electric ) speedometer.

Fuel I mentioned above. I don't think I will be able to get around that one like I did on the flat fender with the sight tube :)

I think the factory computer can output to a dummy light for all MIL codes and such.

Again, I am just thinking simple simple simple. 99.9% of the time I will have my phone as backup to the tablet anyways. Its basically a full duplicate for OBD2 and GPS stuff but on a much smaller screen. Heck, I hope I can tether the phone to the tablet so the tablet can use the same data network :)

Overall cost is a big issue too. A tablet gizmo system sounds expensive till you start to price a full gauge pack that can do almost the same stuff. The tablet actually pulls ahead when you start to eliminate the cost of a head unit for tunes, stand alone GPS, etc. The tablet also fully lets you get your geek on by being able to do stuff like watch a movie, write an e-mail, etc. All for $180 plus a few bluetooth devices....just saying. Try and find a comparable list of electronics that will let you do that same thing for the same price???

On the one hand it seems complicated, on the other hand its a very simple and elegant solution. All you really need for wiring is a 12V power wire to charge the tablet. The bluetooth OBD2 dongles are powered by the OBD port itself ( basically from the main ECU computer power ). Adding in things like GPS and tunes could add a little complexity, but not really THAT much compared to trying to run separate units for everything.

The dash is going to look downright spartan really.....tablet, ignition key, fuel gauge, heater switch, light switch, code light, and a few indicators for high beams/turn signals??? Maybe a few ports for charging phones or something? Maybe a switch or two for auxiliary stuff.....lockers, winch, OBA, etc?

Anyways....ramble ramble.
 

skibum315

Explorer
I certainly get the cost thing ... I hadn't looked at prices for any of it, really. I guess my main concern with the 'tablet for everything' approach, would be (for example) what if you wanted to have access to the Torque display and GPS at the same time? Is that something it could do? Or would you even want to? I guess the thought of having to switch back and forth, whenever I want to see one or the other, sounds like it could get really old ... me, I'm an engineer, so I geek out on info & data ... but I can certainly see where you're coming from.
 

Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I certainly get the cost thing ... I hadn't looked at prices for any of it, really. I guess my main concern with the 'tablet for everything' approach, would be (for example) what if you wanted to have access to the Torque display and GPS at the same time? Is that something it could do? Or would you even want to? I guess the thought of having to switch back and forth, whenever I want to see one or the other, sounds like it could get really old ... me, I'm an engineer, so I geek out on info & data ... but I can certainly see where you're coming from.

It looks like there is a widget add on for Torque....

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torquewidget&hl=en

You can basically have a gauge on your home screen thing. I think you can do the same thing with a music controller. I am still looking for some GPS stuff. You could potentially work up a few different pages of widgets and just flip between them with a finger.

Having some kind knob volume control might be a nice thing. I think I found some small marine amps that have an option like that.

Overall I think it would be an interesting experiment with something new?
 

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