LR3 Help

[muskyman]

Experience is only one way of acquiring knowledge. Rob may not have the same "expedition" experience as you, but he has a lot of firsthand knowledge of things automotive. Likewise, frankly, none of you (I mean the guys shouting Rob down for his lack of experience) have the same depth of "expedition" experience as I have. To me, it doesn't make your views less valid, because I'm prepared to accept that you have reasons for your points of view, despite your lack of "real" expedition experience. (Any of you actually been outside the USA, for example?)

Here's an observation I've made over the past few months, watching Muskyman, the Rupps, Hank, and a few others (who seem to have appeared en masse from DWeb, but I may be wrong). It may be fair, or it may not be, but it's what I perceive. I think there's an awe-inspiring wealth of practical knowledge and experience between you. But it appears everything is black and white group-think for you. There's only one solution for every problem, only one viewpoint that has any validity.It seems almost inconceivable to you that the conclusions and experience of your own clique might not be mirrored by other people's. So everything becomes a bitter argument, where there is no concession to personal preference or (heaven forbid!) contrary experience. You're just as dogmatic and forceful about things you don't understand, as things you do. Worse still, any admission of ignorance or uncertainty is not seen as a strength, but a weakness - evidence that the "opponent" has no business expressing any views or questioning any pearls of wisdom cast before him.

This "discussion" is a prime example. Surely just a little bit of thought would make you realize that "simple wins" is an absurd statement? (Unless one is referring to the one making the statement!) Of course simplicity is an advantage! But other advantages come at the cost of complexity, else we'd all be driving steam engines (or cart horses). Even reliability can be improved by adding complexity (dual/redundant systems? self diagnostics? even just rev-limiters?). So while you can defend your (and my, and Rob's) opinion that more modern cars are less suitable for certain types of expeditions, why can't you simply acknowledge the huge advances (reliability included) that cars have made in the past 50 years. It's really not a urinating contest!

First Michael I appreciate your posts and hope to learn more about your rig. I dont know about the "real expeditions" you have taken in it but I get the idea that it was set up for long self sustained trips...thats cool.

Yes I have been out of the US and I have done a number self sustained hunting and fishing trips into canada some of them were where I was off the paved surface for a week or two at a time. One Bear hunt I did we were off the pavement for just over 2 weeks and I logged about 1700 hundred miles between hunting and and baiting stand locations for the 4 hunters on the trip.I only wish I would have been a land rover guy at that point Do I think I am a expedition expert? No I am a off road enthusiast and have been for 30+ years.

I also think you have a less then accurate idea of the guys here from Dweb. We dont agree on everything and there are some big differences in the builds in our trucks and the opinions that have created those differences. There are also some very large similarities as well and thats because the trucks are all used and certain components and modifications work so much better then others that people in many cases either start there or end up there after other parts or ideas fail. Discoweb.org is a very large well established community and what that has done is create a clearing house of information on what works and what fails.

I feel I would sooner take the opinion of a guy or group of guys that take off road trips of 500-700 miles at a crack in the utah desert then someone that has "a lot of firsthand knowledge of things automotive" wouldent you If you also intended to take those same trips in the desert?

As far as the discussion of reliabilty Rob has pushed the discussion to the ridiculous. Nobody denied that technology has made trucks more reliable. His comments such as "That is evidenced by the fact that you have to modify them significantly, and suffer such unreliability" are just inflamatory BS designed to perpetuate the argument not provide any accurate content to the discussion. My truck for example is far from unreliable and has never been towed off the trail or need assistance from another truck and it has 168000 well used miles. The other names in this thread all have mild but complete builds with the foremost concern being safety when in use as well as functionality for purpose. I asure you michael if you were to spend a week on the trail with say Marc or Steve you would be very much impressed with the trucks they drive ,the modifications they have made and why and the end result those convictions have produced.

Thom

 

[traveltoad]

See, this is what I'm talking about. You can't even grasp the concept that there are people with MORE experience than you! There are people who have driven across continents. Michael Groves is an example of what I'm talking about, and there are others who just don't bother anymore.

Where have I ever claimed to have more experience than anyone else here. I have not even claimed to have more experience than you. There are quite a few people on this board with a lot of experience and knowledge. I listen to what they have to say. I may not agree, and I may decide to do it my way regardless of the information provided. That does not make me an expert. However, if someone then asks why I did it my way, I give my reasons. I may then get an earfull as to why my reasons are wrong. You know what? As long as I have put thought into it and I am comfortable with my reasons then... I am ok with that. But again, that does not make me an expert.

 

[Mike_rupp]

Experience is only one way of acquiring knowledge. Rob may not have the same "expedition" experience as you, but he has a lot of firsthand knowledge of things automotive. Likewise, frankly, none of you (I mean the guys shouting Rob down for his lack of experience) have the same depth of "expedition" experience as I have. To me, it doesn't make your views less valid, because I'm prepared to accept that you have reasons for your points of view, despite your lack of "real" expedition experience. (Any of you actually been outside the USA, for example?)

Here's an observation I've made over the past few months, watching Muskyman, the Rupps, Hank, and a few others (who seem to have appeared en masse from DWeb, but I may be wrong). It may be fair, or it may not be, but it's what I perceive. I think there's an awe-inspiring wealth of practical knowledge and experience between you. But it appears everything is black and white group-think for you. There's only one solution for every problem, only one viewpoint that has any validity.It seems almost inconceivable to you that the conclusions and experience of your own clique might not be mirrored by other people's. So everything becomes a bitter argument, where there is no concession to personal preference or (heaven forbid!) contrary experience. You're just as dogmatic and forceful about things you don't understand, as things you do. Worse still, any admission of ignorance or uncertainty is not seen as a strength, but a weakness - evidence that the "opponent" has no business expressing any views or questioning any pearls of wisdom cast before him.

This "discussion" is a prime example. Surely just a little bit of thought would make you realize that "simple wins" is an absurd statement? (Unless one is referring to the one making the statement!) Of course simplicity is an advantage! But other advantages come at the cost of complexity, else we'd all be driving steam engines (or cart horses). Even reliability can be improved by adding complexity (dual/redundant systems? self diagnostics? even just rev-limiters?). So while you can defend your (and my, and Rob's) opinion that more modern cars are less suitable for certain types of expeditions, why can't you simply acknowledge the huge advances (reliability included) that cars have made in the past 50 years. It's really not a urinating contest!

Michael, does Canada count? I'm pretty sure that my southern California friends have ventured to Mexico once or twice. By the way, I really dislike using the term expedition for what I do. An expedition implies that there is a purpose for the trip. The only purpose I have is to get away from the city life for a while to let my head decompress.

If you could only see us together. Group think would be the last word that would come to mind. My brother and I probably disagree more than we agree. If my brother asked my opinion of his truck, I could write a term paper about things that I would do differently. He would probably say the same about mine.

My whole point in discussing this is to point out areas of potential concern when considering a vehicle. I think that there is a perception that we as a group think that the Discovery is some holier than thou vehicle and the rest are substandard. That isn't the case at all. They are all compromise vehicles in one way or another. If you gain in one area, you lose in another. If I had my wishes, I'd score a 110 with a tdi.

 

[traveltoad]

My whole point in discussing this is to point out areas of potential concern when considering a vehicle. I think that there is a perception that we as a group think that the Discovery is some holier than thou vehicle and the rest are substandard. That isn't the case at all. They are all compromise vehicles in one way or another. If you gain in one area, you lose in another. If I had my wishes, I'd score a 110 with a tdi.

I think this is a very important point. Describing the faults of a vehicle is good. It allows a person to weigh the pros and cons of a vehicle and/or of modifications. Then an informed decision can be made and an understanding of the limitations or weaknesses of the choice. Glossing over the faults or weaknesses makes an informed decision more difficult. Nor right or wrong. Not black or white. Informed. There are plenty of things I would do differently now that I know a little bit more.

 

[Mike_rupp]

There are plenty of things I would do differently now that I know a little bit more.

I have a list of things that I regret doing:

Cones
Ranchos
Cooper tires
Non-Ferodo brake pads
2 piece sliders with nerf bars

I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting, but I wish I would have listened more closely to the guys that had blazed the trail ahead of me. But hey, people can be stubborn and dig their heels in. That's why people like Rob make me laugh. He would benefit if he listened half as much as he talks.

 

[jham]

this whole "dweb crew" stereotype thing is getting old, real quick. I was a member of dweb long before this forum. Am I not welcome here? Am I "one of them"?

"We" aren't the gang from the other side of town. "We" all aren't hot headed, experts, or novices. Why the hell am i even saying "we"? Probably because I feel grouped into a stereotype. Oh well.

This is a great site, and I'm glad I was referred to it. However, I don't think its the folks from dweb who came "en masse" who threaten to worsen it. I think it's the people who feel "their" site is threatened and retaliate against new members based on what other site they might have joined first. The moderators of this site know their goals, and they do a good job at sticking to them. I don't think this site is going to "become like dweb". Is it just the Land Rover section, or do folks in the other make/model sections on this board act like middle school girls defending their cliques? Sheesh...

 

[Antichrist]

You've never had a distributor cap spontaneously crack?
You've never had brake pads delaminate, or crumble from heat?
You've just never gotten your engine bay hot enough.

Nope, nope, nope. But I've only been driving Land Rovers for 35 years. There's still time I suppose.

I was told by Dwebbers early on, probably was even you, never to go out alone. Then criticized for being a wimp for driving around on easy roads, because I was alone before I'd met anybody else to go out with. Talk about contradiction.

Never by me. That would be hypocritical since 99% of my travels are alone. Maybe that's why I prefer simple systems.

 

[Antichrist]

Mike, I really liked my Cooper STT's.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[muskyman]

Mike, I really liked my Cooper STT's.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

coulda used the side wall blocks on those last weekend I tore a sidewall on some razor sharp granite on my BFG's

 

[Mike_rupp]

Mike, I really liked my Cooper STT's.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

What a typical, hotheaded, arrogant, attitude-laced comment.

 

[michaelgroves]

Thom and Mike, thanks for the replies.

Two points I should make - firstly, I was not at all belittling your experience - you guys know a lot more about many of aspects of automotive, off-road and "expedition" issues than I do, or Rob does. That said, it's probably also true that my experiences, study and discussions etc. have perhaps qualified me more than you in other areas. Ditto Rob, who is not only an engineer and general automotive buff, but has also been applying himself to understanding a lot of things about off-road vehicles specifically (read back through the threads he has participated in).

Secondly, I don't need to spend a week on the trail with Marc or Steve or any of you to be impressed by your knowledge - I read a lot of the stuff you write, and it's evident that you have it.

It really isn't the knowledge that's at issue - it's the style of discussion.

It may seem strange, but facts are of relatively little value. Not that they are unimportant, but facts can quickly be read up in a manual, or factual questions answered and confirmed by those who know. What is much more rare is analysis, and informed judgement. People ask questions like: How do BFG MT's perform in snow? What's the best way to carry spare fuel? How much can you lift a Discovery suspension before caster correction becomes necessary? Steel cable or synthetic on a winch?

The actual answers don't matter as much as the reasoning behind the answers. Because there is no right or wrong answer. When I ask a question here, what I look for is a useful way of viewing the problem - other people here analyse the problem in the light of their knowledge and experience, and point out issues I might never have thought of, and tell me why they would put more weight on this feature than that one, etc. At the end of the day, I draw my own conclusions, but hopefully my conclusions are better informed because of the help I got.

The great thing about this is that we don't even try to make sure that all threads end with everyone agreeing. On the contrary, disparate views are welcomed, even those that come out of left field, if they are backed up with some kind of rationale.

As a generalisation (and not an entirely fair one, I concede), this is not your discussion style. You routinely ridicule or dismiss those who question your judgement, or express alternative views, and even more so, if they slip up and make a factual error. Every thread seems to become an effort to persuade or coerce a specific conclusion. I'm not going to trawl back for examples, nor do I expect you to accept my criticism, although I would hope that you might at least consider to what extent it's true.

I did think long and hard before posting this - and the reason I decided to go ahead is that recently all too many threads have ended up in this kind of pointless bickering over minutiae, and it's actually killing the forum.

Regards,

Michael

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Where have I ever claimed to have more experience than anyone else here. I have not even claimed to have more experience than you. There are quite a few people on this board with a lot of experience and knowledge. I listen to what they have to say. I may not agree, and I may decide to do it my way regardless of the information provided. That does not make me an expert. However, if someone then asks why I did it my way, I give my reasons. I may then get an earfull as to why my reasons are wrong. You know what? As long as I have put thought into it and I am comfortable with my reasons then... I am ok with that. But again, that does not make me an expert.

You're right, I lumped you in with the others based on the side you are taking. What you write is exactly how I approach this forum as well. I think the only difference is you have yet understand what my experience actually is, and that's why you can't understand my frustration here. I am not an expert about off-roading, have never claimed to be. I've learned most of what I know here, and from Dweb. I have made some decisions against the grain, and will defend them. The rest are based advice from whomever I perceived to be the most knowledgable, and that does NOT necessarily mean who shouted the loudest or longest.

I AM an expert in the inner workings of EFI. You do not learn that while driving off-road. You learn that from training at an OEM, or from programming an engine map from scratch, both of which I have done. I am an expert on front end accessories drives, and underhood plumbing. Not very sexy, so I don't bring it up. I am not an expert on truck suspension, but I know car suspensions very well, and one of my best friends was a suspension and brake engineer at Ford truck until February, and the advice I get from him trumps (in my mind) anything anybody here will tell me. Another of my best friends is a chassis engineer in Ford truck, and the same rules apply.

I do find it curious which side you chose in this argument, given you own one of the most complicated off-road motorcycles made. We had to abandon one last year when the fuel pump died on a trail. (Gravity feed has always worked for me...). But, that doesn't stop it from being my dream bike.

 

[Steve Rupp]

But do you take the time to read and think about the answers?

Yes, of course.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You can't even grasp the concept that there are people with MORE experience than you! There are people who have driven across continents. Michael Groves is an example of what I'm talking about, and there are others who just don't bother anymore.

No you don't make this a urinating match at all. I think Aaron is the last one to make the claim he has more experience than anybody.

 

[michaelgroves]

this whole "dweb crew" stereotype thing is getting old, real quick. I was a member of dweb long before this forum. Am I not welcome here? Am I "one of them"?

"We" aren't the gang from the other side of town. "We" all aren't hot headed, experts, or novices. Why the hell am i even saying "we"? Probably because I feel grouped into a stereotype. Oh well.

I was only ever a lurker on DWeb, but there was a very characteristic "feel" to the discussions on that site, that was totally different to the way things were discussed at ExPo. Suddenly we started getting a lot more of the confrontational style of argument here, and quite a bit of it was from what seemed to be a fairly large number of migrants from DWeb. But I do take your point - it's not a Dweb thing per se. Furthermore, we have also gained from the Dweb "influx", as there is undeniably a whole lot of new expertise and informed opinion here now.

Making the assumption that all people from a particular group have the same characteristics is pretty much the definition of bigotry!

 

[traveltoad]

You're right, I lumped you in with the others based on the side you are taking. What you write is exactly how I approach this forum as well. I think the only difference is you have yet understand what my experience actually is, and that's why you can't understand my frustration here. I am not an expert about off-roading, have never claimed to be. I've learned most of what I know here, and from Dweb. I have made some decisions against the grain, and will defend them. The rest are based advice from whomever I perceived to be the most knowledgable, and that does NOT necessarily mean who shouted the loudest or longest.

I AM an expert in the inner workings of EFI. You do not learn that while driving off-road. You learn that from training at an OEM, or from programming an engine map from scratch, both of which I have done. I am an expert on front end accessories drives, and underhood plumbing. Not very sexy, so I don't bring it up. I am not an expert on truck suspension, but I know car suspensions very well, and one of my best friends was a suspension and brake engineer at Ford truck until February, and the advice I get from him trumps (in my mind) anything anybody here will tell me. Another of my best friends is a chassis engineer in Ford truck, and the same rules apply.

I do find it curious which side you chose in this argument, given you own one of the most complicated off-road motorcycles made. We had to abandon one last year when the fuel pump died on a trail. (Gravity feed has always worked for me...). But, that doesn't stop it from being my dream bike.

What bothers me is that you seem to have assumed that knowing EFI makes you informed as to how to choose and set up a truck.

My bike is "most complicated off-road motorcycles made"? Really? I am very curious as to why you say this.