LR3 Help

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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Depending on the year, a generator, external voltage regulator, drum brakes/wheel cylinders, mechanical lift pump, GLASS FUSES
Generator - No less reliable nor more prone to failure than an alternator
Drum brakes - Only slightly less reliable, but no more prone to failure than discs
Mechanical lift pump -- More reliable (as long as the engine is running it's pumping) and cheaper to repair than electric
Glass fuses -- No more likely to blow that blade or ceramic fuses.

I know you were mostly kidding, but I think you get my point ;)

Which reminds me.
I was once with a group of guys wheeling in two trucks, me in a scout and a different Jeep CJ.
If you'd had a diesel Scout, you'd not have needed to bother with the jumper cables once you started it. ;)
 
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R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
ok...I understand you want to avoid the question, so let me make it even easier for you.
Name one thing that a diesel LR3 doesn't have that my Series diesel has.
See? I'm not even asking for 5 this time.

No, that's actually harder. I don't know diesels that well, never worked on one.

So if you want to push the issue, we'll go back to petrols. I will not ignore the carb and ignition system unless we also ignore the fuel injection system on a new one... So, you've got the distributor gear which could strip. I don't know if it's a big issue on LR's, but it is on Ford V8's which is what I know and why I brought it up. You've got a cap and rotor which can and do go bad all the time. Every time I go through deep water, somebody with an old Jeep ends up with a problem, never had an issue with any fuel injected trucks.

You've got spark plug wires which can burn or any number of other issues. COP plug wires are less prone to damage since they route better, plus you can actually fix them with wire stolen from any other 12V system.

On the carb side, you've got a throttle cable which can break or stick. I've seen that a number of times and had it happen to myself. Despite the fear of throttle by wire, and there have been some problems (*cough* on Jeeps) I haven't seen too many *yet*.

I'm also sure everybody has had jets mysteriously get plugged, I know I have. I've broken the choke linkage on one of my bikes. Engines that don't want to start because it's too cold. All things that can go wrong with carbs, and not FI.

While new trucks still have head gaskets, the science has come a long way, and issues are much less common. Musky has seen total engine failure, let me know if you ever see that on a modern engine. Modern engines are vastly stronger internally than they used to be. I'm not saying it's impossible, but much less likely.

You guys keep on coming up with these old "war stories" which just reinforce my point. Old trucks break a lot. Sure, you can bodge them back together, and that's great. But an LR3 is less likely to have a total engine failure, and guess what, the one with the airbag problem... you got it out? Do you even remember the poll at Dweb, asking who has really been totally stranded due to electronics? Do you remember the outcome of that?

Anyway, some of my own war stories:

I'm on an '83 XT125 and my dad on a 72 DT100 on a trail in the middle of nowhere, with nothing but the clothes on our backs and the tool kits under the seats. His throttle sticks WFO, so he stops the bike. We try to free it up, kick it over, it goes WFO in neutral. Hit the kill switch, doesn't stop. I assume the old thing was dieseling on a hot spot at that point. So it's sitting WFO in neutral. Does it blow up? No. Just sits there screaming. I kick it on it's side hoping the carb will drain, but it doesn't. Now it's sitting on it's side, WFO in neutral. I pop it into 5th gear and pick it up so the rear tire touches and it stalls out. Now the engine is seized. We pull the head off, get a stick and a rock, and beat the piston down to get it moving again. Head back on, same gasket. We get a small sappling, I hold onto the top of it, my dad the bottom, and I drag him on his bike so we can turn it over, free up the piston and get it running.

While at the Corduroy Enduro last year, my friend on a KTM 250 2T drowned his bike twice. And not inching through the water at tickover either. We pull the bike out with muscle power. Is the engine blown? No. Tip it over, take out the plug, pump the water out, put the plug back in, get it started and continue the race.

That ledge you posted, with the spotter, and the truck inching up it? That wouldn't even slow us down on bikes.

I know you're not getting my point about motorcycles. It is this. We all have different goals and expectations for our trips. Some people denigrate others for keeping to gravel roads. Or criticize which truck they choose because it's not capable of the trails you travel. We should all have 40 year old diesel trucks so that we can all go on week long trips on level 4 trails. You act like you're the kings of off-road, because you've made the only logical choice on what you drive and where you drive it. Anybody else who does anything different is "wrong", because there is only one thing that makes sense.

I'm saying you guys do not own "the only logical solution for venturing off-road." I find doing some of the things you guys do in any street legal truck is fundamentally flawed from the start. Sure, you can't carry a weeks worth of camping supplies on an enduro. Some people don't choose to spend 7 days on a level 4 trail. I happily spend a day riding trails you'd have difficulty walking, forget about driving a truck on it, and returning to camp at night. Others are happy on a 7 day camping trip on graded gravel roads, and for them that's an "expedition". For the vast majority of people in the US, anything not in an RV park is an "expedition".

This post, was for a guy asking about an LR3. I guess you feel some civic duty to steer him clear, but the way you approach this topic, every time, I don't think these people listen to you. All you do is muddy the thread, and prevent anybody else who may make useful suggestions about options or mods from getting through. Since you guys started posting here a few months ago, this forum has gotten aweful quiet. Nobody wants to ask questions anymore, for fear of being belittled for driving anything other than a diesel Series III.
 

Mike_rupp

Adventurer
This post, was for a guy asking about an LR3. I guess you feel some civic duty to steer him clear, but the way you approach this topic, every time, I don't think these people listen to you. All you do is muddy the thread, and prevent anybody else who may make useful suggestions about options or mods from getting through. Since you guys started posting here a few months ago, this forum has gotten aweful quiet. Nobody wants to ask questions anymore, for fear of being belittled for driving anything other than a diesel Series III.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25036

Did you forget that thread? The Freelander owner was looking to "kit" out his so he could use it for "mild expeditionary travel". Before the thread was even finished, he decided to sell the Freelander and get a Discovery.

You made a comment that this BBS is about the journey more so than the vehicles, so I'd like to read more of your comments and insight about the journey.
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
You've got a cap and rotor which can and do go bad all the time.
Never had one just "go bad". They are a maintenance item. Like saying your brake pads can "go bad"

You've got spark plug wires which can burn or any number of other issues.
Never had one burn, but then I make sure they are properly routed.

On the carb side, you've got a throttle cable which can break or stick.
Series Rovers have a mechanical throttle linkage, but for the cables I have 250k on my Disco alone with never a break or sticking cable. Seems pretty reliable to me.

I'm also sure everybody has had jets mysteriously get plugged, I know I have.
No, not really, but I always make sure I have a good fuel filter. I have had carbs wear and need a rebuild after 20 years or so.

I've broken the choke linkage on one of my bikes.
I broke one once, just operated the choke by hand and drove the car anyway.

Engines that don't want to start because it's too cold.
ummm...no. But I did have one of my 109's with a dead starter solenoid one winter in Vermont. So I just used the hand crank to start it.

Modern engines are vastly stronger internally than they used to be.
And much more prone to serious damage if they overheat.

Anybody else who does anything different is "wrong", because there is only one thing that makes sense.
I've never said nor implied that. What I said is that saying there isn't more to go wrong on newer vehicles is denying reality. And that for me, I don't have the cash reserves to spend many $100's of dollars for a tow from the middle of nowhere to a dealer.

I've never said that modern vehicles are less reliable. What I've consistently said is that the added complexity of systems means they are less amenable to field repair of many issues that can force an end to your trip, or extend it to much longer than you intended. Obviously if a person doesn't know how to check their own air, it doesn't matter what they drive.

All you do is muddy the thread, and prevent anybody else who may make useful suggestions about options or mods from getting through.
Read it again, he wasn't asking about options or mods.
 
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muskyman

Explorer
This post, was for a guy asking about an LR3. I guess you feel some civic duty to steer him clear, but the way you approach this topic, every time, I don't think these people listen to you. All you do is muddy the thread, and prevent anybody else who may make useful suggestions about options or mods from getting through. Since you guys started posting here a few months ago, this forum has gotten aweful quiet. Nobody wants to ask questions anymore, for fear of being belittled for driving anything other than a diesel Series III.

I think I want to touch on this for one important reason.

I think the people that it is aimed at all have way more to contribute on a expedition site then you do.This comment sounds like we invaded your private little santuary of misinformation and you are pissed. Lots of these people are really into back country exploration and unsupported self contained back country travel at that. The information they are posting is based on years and years of doing exactly what this site apears to be about. By your own admission you have "a few weekends" of off road 4x4 travel under your belt. How can you think your opinion is more important to the readers here then theirs?

The power of the internet is that the lurkers and posters get to read all the information they desire and then decide based on that information and yes the arguements presented for those opinions and then make up their mind.

The long term value of the land rover section on this site will be dependent on the number of real enthusiasts that frequent this section. People like Marc O, Steve Rupp, Mike Rupp, Michael Slade, Ho Chung,Tom Rowe and any number of others here that are really out there using these trucks for what they are suposed to be built for. You may not like the opinions but you and any other readers here are better off to listen because they will teach you alot and their opinions are based on experience in the feild not on the internet.

Thom
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
What YOU chose to do with your truck is NOT what these were built for. That is evidenced by the fact that you have to modify them significantly, and suffer such unreliability. The trails that you choose to drive are also NOT the sole destination of this website! Do not transpose your perceptions and values onto the rest of us. That is the problem. Judging by your list of valued contributors, you've confirmed that you want to turn this forum into a subset of Dweb.

There were many other contributors here who's experience and input were valued much more highly than yours. I've already seen you chase a few of them away because they do not wish to engage in a shouting match. You don't even know who they were, because you came in here with your King of Off-Road attitude and never got to know them. You're attacking me now, the inexperienced one, only because I'm one of the few who will bother arguing with you.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Never had one just "go bad". They are a maintenance item. Like saying your brake pads can "go bad"

Wow. You've never had a distributor cap spontaneously crack? You've never had brake pads delaminate, or crumble from heat? I've had brake pads go from brand new, to "sparks flying past the windows" full-metallic in 30 minutes.

Never had one burn, but then I make sure they are properly routed.

You've just never gotten your engine bay hot enough.

Series Rovers have a mechanical throttle linkage, but for the cables I have 250k on my Disco alone with never a break or sticking cable. Seems pretty reliable to me.

Guess you're lucky. I've had mine stick twice, and fall off the snail countless times.

And much more prone to serious damage if they overheat.

That's a gross over-generalization. Not the case in my opinion. None of my Ford motors has ever suffered damage from overheat. I haven't overheated my Rover yet, but I know it's not as robust.

In fact many new engines will take you much further after total coolant loss due to cylinder deactivation strategies.

I've never said nor implied that. What I said is that saying there isn't more to go wrong on newer vehicles is denying reality. And that for me, I don't have the cash reserves to spend many $100's of dollars for a tow from the middle of nowhere to a dealer.

Who's paying for a tow, or dying in the desert anyway? I was told by Dwebbers early on, probably was even you, never to go out alone. Then criticized for being a wimp for driving around on easy roads, because I was alone before I'd met anybody else to go out with. Talk about contradiction.
 

Mike_rupp

Adventurer
Rob, would you prefer that Marc Olivares, Thom, Tom Rowe, my brother, Sinuhe, and I leave the site altogether? All of us are discoweb.org posters. All of us have had disagreements, but we don't get our panties twisted up simply because we disagree. What is your issue with discoweb? It seems that, in your eyes, all of us are automatically suspect. You too posted quite a bit on discoweb. Why aren't you lumped in with the rest of us?

It is apparent that you want to be known as an expert here and with the small group of us on here now, your opinions are challenged. Do you feel that your status on here is threatened by us? Is that why you have such hostility to anybody remotely associated with discoweb?

Rob, I think that after you have more than a weekend of wheeling under your belt, you'll realize that most of the issues with these trucks has nothing to do with the modifications.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Read this statement again to yourself. Now, one more time...

Do you see the problem?

No, you're not getting it. I'm the only one who will BOTHER arguing with you. Everybody else just LEFT.

Rob, would you prefer that Marc Olivares, Thom, Tom Rowe, my brother, Sinuhe, and I leave the site altogether? All of us are discoweb.org posters. All of us have had disagreements, but we don't get our panties twisted up simply because we disagree. What is your issue with discoweb? It seems that, in your eyes, all of us are automatically suspect. You too posted quite a bit on discoweb. Why aren't you lumped in with the rest of us?

I don't really care whether you stay or go. What I don't want is the type of discourse that you are bringing here. It's the attitude, more than the content, and you just can't seem to get that. The attitude that no other opinion is valid but your own.

Again, I don't have a big problem with Dweb, other than the way many people conduct themselves there. It's an excellent resource if you can get through some of the crap, or get the search engine to work (which isn't often). I do have a problem some of the personalities there, which is why I pretty much stopped posting there once I found this place.

It is apparent that you want to be known as an expert here and with the small group of us on here now, your opinions are challenged. Do you feel that your status on here is threatened by us? Is that why you have such hostility to anybody remotely associated with discoweb?

Oh please. I have not presented myself as anything that I'm not. A huge number of my posts are questions.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Experience is only one way of acquiring knowledge. Rob may not have the same "expedition" experience as you, but he has a lot of firsthand knowledge of things automotive. Likewise, frankly, none of you (I mean the guys shouting Rob down for his lack of experience) have the same depth of "expedition" experience as I have. To me, it doesn't make your views less valid, because I'm prepared to accept that you have reasons for your points of view, despite your lack of "real" expedition experience. (Any of you actually been outside the USA, for example?)

Here's an observation I've made over the past few months, watching Muskyman, the Rupps, Hank, and a few others (who seem to have appeared en masse from DWeb, but I may be wrong). It may be fair, or it may not be, but it's what I perceive. I think there's an awe-inspiring wealth of practical knowledge and experience between you. But it appears everything is black and white group-think for you. There's only one solution for every problem, only one viewpoint that has any validity.It seems almost inconceivable to you that the conclusions and experience of your own clique might not be mirrored by other people's. So everything becomes a bitter argument, where there is no concession to personal preference or (heaven forbid!) contrary experience. You're just as dogmatic and forceful about things you don't understand, as things you do. Worse still, any admission of ignorance or uncertainty is not seen as a strength, but a weakness - evidence that the "opponent" has no business expressing any views or questioning any pearls of wisdom cast before him.

This "discussion" is a prime example. Surely just a little bit of thought would make you realize that "simple wins" is an absurd statement? (Unless one is referring to the one making the statement!) Of course simplicity is an advantage! But other advantages come at the cost of complexity, else we'd all be driving steam engines (or cart horses). Even reliability can be improved by adding complexity (dual/redundant systems? self diagnostics? even just rev-limiters?). So while you can defend your (and my, and Rob's) opinion that more modern cars are less suitable for certain types of expeditions, why can't you simply acknowledge the huge advances (reliability included) that cars have made in the past 50 years. It's really not a urinating contest!
 

traveltoad

Aaron S
No, you're not getting it. I'm the only one who will BOTHER arguing with you. Everybody else just LEFT.

Do you think there is a chance... just a chance that they have not left but rather they are listening as people without experience or knowledge base often do when they want to learn something?



I don't really care whether you stay or go. What I don't want is the type of discourse that you are bringing here. It's the attitude, more than the content, and you just can't seem to get that. The attitude that no other opinion is valid but your own.

Plenty of opinions are listened to here and on Dweb. Often times there are even lenthy discussions regarding the different opinions. When someone without experience makes inaccurate statements the voice(s) of wisdom will (and should IMO) make a correction so other people can learn. Misinformation and inaccurate statements are just that, calling them opinions does not make them any better.


Again, I don't have a big problem with Dweb, other than the way many people conduct themselves there. It's an excellent resource if you can get through some of the crap, or get the search engine to work (which isn't often). I do have a problem some of the personalities there, which is why I pretty much stopped posting there once I found this place.

I think most of the "crap" comes out when people refuse to just listen for a moment.


Oh please. I have not presented myself as anything that I'm not. A huge number of my posts are questions.

But do you take the time to read and think about the answers?
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Do you think there is a chance... just a chance that they have not left but rather they are listening as people without experience or knowledge base often do when they want to learn something?

See, this is what I'm talking about. You can't even grasp the concept that there are people with MORE experience than you! There are people who have driven across continents. Michael Groves is an example of what I'm talking about, and there are others who just don't bother anymore.

But do you take the time to read and think about the answers?

Yes, of course. All my decisions have been made based directly on advice I've received. Springs, shocks, tires, recovery gear, winch, CB antenna, battery, RTT, and hood blackout, all from reading here, and Dweb.. Just last week I decided to go with Ferodo pads instead of the cheaper Lockheeds because of things I read on *gasp* Dweb. Hell, I almost bought a Freelander before I was convinced it would be a bad decision!
 
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