DieselRanger
Well-known member
And they're not buying into that whale blubber oil-lamp nonsense either. They went blind reading the Bible by candle-light and they LIKED it!
New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
Appears LR's Rob Atkins - chief engineer, vehicle engineering captured the love/hate relationship with LR, that LR does live in a cave:
“.........Many of the biggest Defender decisions aren’t obvious, says Atkins, .......... he’s proud of two particular decisions: the use of bigger tyres to raise the Defender’s driving position and improve its off-road traction; and some special packaging measures needed to make the Defender’s boot space as wide and uncluttered as it is, in comparison with more conventional SUVs.
The decision about the big wheels came early, says Atkins: “Even before we had a fully engineered mule, we did some testing after we fitted bigger tyres to a Range Rover Sport and it was very promising. Then we went to Dubai, where sand driving is the national sport, and were simply blown away by the performance of our Defender mule, even when we were using road tyre pressures. We knew the design was strong, but big wheels gave the vehicle extra height and presence, and a lot more grip. That was a very important moment.”......... "
Bigger wheels/tires was an important moment? In 2019? From the "chief engineer"? Tires/wheels have been a item of discussion for decades and is one of the top, if not top, initial modifications. Is that how they engineered the LR3/4 removable hitch that falls out, with trailer attached? Or created one of the best tow vehicles but forgot about extension mirrors? Maybe its the remote-control self-folding D5 seats that require the seats to be clear of anything and still don't lay flat. Things that just make you scratch your head and ask ****** were you thinking LR?
“.........Many of the biggest Defender decisions aren’t obvious, says Atkins, .......... he’s proud of two particular decisions: the use of bigger tyres to raise the Defender’s driving position and improve its off-road traction; and some special packaging measures needed to make the Defender’s boot space as wide and uncluttered as it is, in comparison with more conventional SUVs.
The decision about the big wheels came early, says Atkins: “Even before we had a fully engineered mule, we did some testing after we fitted bigger tyres to a Range Rover Sport and it was very promising. Then we went to Dubai, where sand driving is the national sport, and were simply blown away by the performance of our Defender mule, even when we were using road tyre pressures. We knew the design was strong, but big wheels gave the vehicle extra height and presence, and a lot more grip. That was a very important moment.”......... "
Bigger wheels/tires was an important moment? In 2019? From the "chief engineer"? Tires/wheels have been a item of discussion for decades and is one of the top, if not top, initial modifications. Is that how they engineered the LR3/4 removable hitch that falls out, with trailer attached? Or created one of the best tow vehicles but forgot about extension mirrors? Maybe its the remote-control self-folding D5 seats that require the seats to be clear of anything and still don't lay flat. Things that just make you scratch your head and ask ****** were you thinking LR?
T-Willy
Well-known member
Which is why Land Rover's chronic unreliability is so perplexing, even impressive.
I was considering ordering a 110. I configured one online: https://build.landrover/C551BA24 It fit my criteria for a touring wagon: hefty 1900 lb payload, mid-size, off-road capable, and even steelies.
But what about reliability? For me, this is critical. Unfamiliar with the brand (I've never owned one), I researched.
What I found was shocking:
1. JD Powers -- lowest 2020 dependability rating in the U.S. Link: https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study
2. OSV -- This review of multiple consumer surveys concludes, categorically, that "Land Rover and Range Rover are not reliable. It might be painful to admit it, but the evidence is clear to see." Link: https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable-are-land-rover-and-range-rover/
3. Repair Pal - "The Land Rover Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 31st out of 32 for all car brands." Link: https://repairpal.com/reliability/land+rover
4. Consumer Reports -- concludes bluntly, "Reliability remains a serious concern." Link: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/land-rover/
5. Reliability Index -- consistently terrible ratings across Land Rover models. Link: https://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/132
6. Consumer Affairs -- This litany of consumer horror stories sort of sealed the deal. Failed engines. Failed brakes. Failed electronics. Poor dealer support. On and on. And, all on relatively new and recent vehicles. Link: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/land_rover.html?page=3#sort=top_reviews&filter=none
I could go on. Yet, every factual analysis i found came to a similar conclusion: Land Rover vehicles are unreliable, and are among the most unreliable vehicles sold in the United States and Europe.
Perhaps because I am not a brand loyalist, I have been fascinated at the mental gymnastics undertaken on this forum to avoid what any person objectively contemplating the fate of $50,000 would find to be overwhelming evidence.
The most generous and polite conclusion to be rendered about the new Defender's potential reliability -- and thus its merits as a remote touring (expedition) vehicle -- is, "we'll see." I hope it does break the mold and prove to be reliable. I might get one.
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Here's another head scratcher. The LR3/4, characterized by many as a great tow vehicle, is rated at 7700 lbs. The hitch? .... 550 lbs or only 7%. For stability tongue weight should be at least 10% of trailer weight + margin so should be in the 800 lb range. 550 lb max tongue weight reduces the truck to 4K trailers.
Another item not well thought out.
Another item not well thought out.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
T-Willy.....any minute now DieselRanger is going to tell you that every one of those reports are just talking about the radio
Blaise
Well-known member
No, you read reports which were written by a website which filtered and presented data to you in the manner that they prefer. This isn't a hateful statement, just be aware that any sort of statistical sampling may not necessarily be relatable to you. I wouldn't care if a car had an iffy rear-DVD system, but I'd be pretty annoyed if the fuel system cut out even once.
I'm a person who can do their own repair work and is capable of keeping complex machines running. I judge the reliability of a vehicle based on how the vehicle performs with perfect maintenance and upkeep, not by how long it stays running through neglect (I see you, toyota).
So. My Rover hasn't ever broken down, but she needs more attention on a regular basis. It's true - but it's worth it. It's the same reason I ride a Ducati and want to ditch my BRZ for a Porsche. And yeah, I'd get a Defender to replace the LR3.
DorB
Adventurer
You count Toyota 70’ series as an SUV?
You got it all wrong.
You competed the transition of the landcruiser to the current shift in the defender, and it’s not comparable because Toyota did not quit the work truck line (70’ series).
It would have, If LR continued the evolution of the basic Defender in parallel to the SUV line, as Toyota did.
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Paddler Ed
Adventurer
7% is quite a normal European ratio; they tend not to run the long drawbars/a-frames that Aussie and USA/NA market trailers do, which leads to the heavier noseweight.
Exactly
Oh gosh, now this thread is going to reach 200 pages...
Corgi_express
Well-known member
T-Willy.....any minute now DieselRanger is going to tell you that every one of those reports are just talking about the radio
Yeah, I don't know that Jeep fans should be throwing any stones when it comes to reliability ratings...
Jeep does have a very high resale value though (up there with Tacoma). I was very surprised about that.
Land Rover in general is probably at the bottom. The Defender may be different though, especially at the beginning.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
As bad as Jeeps rating may be they are still better than Land Rovers!
And when it does break at least it's not wildly expensive and you'll also be able to actually find a dealer outside of major metropolitan areas.
Corgi_express
Well-known member
Oh yeah, I mean I have thought about getting a Gladiator a lot. Still might. The fact that resale value remains high is evidence of how much people love them, despite their warts.
But they ain't exactly known for being reliable. I just find it funny how the first thing everyone brings up for Land Rover is reliability, but they are willing to give Jeep a pass for their history of serious issues... because they are Jeep.