New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[mpinco]

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.

Actually for a highly complex vehicle I like the idea of over the air updates. The problem is that here in the intermountain west there are significant areas with zero cell coverage, either due to lack of coverage or terrain. Our first instructions to our tourist is "here is a map, learn to read it, toss your cell phone in the back seat" as your cell service likely will be off-line. Amusing how many look at us with confused looks and apprehension........ yes, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, now figure the rest out by yourselves.

 

[EricTyrrell]

The Defender bridged the gap between the 70 series and the Wagons like the 6X-8X-10X-200....it was used as a stand in for both types of vehicles....now it more closely aligns to the Wagon series, like the 200....doesn't mean it's not a 'Defender' just like the 200 series is still a 'Landcruiser' even if they dropped the 70 series.

Yes, but the 200 wouldn't be a HD LC. People that want a HD LC don't want a wagon, just as people who want a modern classic Defender (akin to the HD LC series), don't want a wagon Defender.

Further, it seem the LC wagon series is actually most akin to the Discovery series. Both are wagon body only, share components with their HD/classic series, and focus more on passenger comfort. Now we're logically back to the common idea that the new Defender would have fit better into the Discovery series.

 

[XJLI]

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.

The GAP tool does pretty damn good to fix all the LR3/4 faults. For less than half of what it would cost to get a chinese snap-on knockoff scanner to boot. I'll bet they get a version for the Defender going in a couple years.

 

[nickw]

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.

I wouldn't own any vehicle unless I had a dealership local to me, including Toyota....

 

[Carson G]

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.

So in other words what we’ve already been doing for the last 17 years. A gap diagnostic tool solves that issue. There are more Land Rover dealers than you think. I can think of five or six off the top of my head within a three hour radius of my house. Most decent sized cities have a LR dealer then there are indies who can work on them as well.

 

[nickw]

Yes, but the 200 wouldn't be a HD LC. People that want a HD LC don't want a wagon, just as people who want a modern classic Defender (akin to the HD LC series), don't want a wagon Defender.

Further, it seem the LC wagon series is actually most akin to the Discovery series. Both are wagon body only, share components with their HD/classic series, and focus more on passenger comfort. Now we're logically back to the common idea that the new Defender would have fit better into the Discovery series.

So your saying the LC Wagons should have been renamed something besides "Landcruiser", just like LR branched off with the Discovery line, Toyota should have done the same with their wagon line? You'll have to accept my logic and I'll agree with yours...

We see today that the 200 is very similar to the Sequoia...and Tundra for that matter, just as we see with parts commonality between Discovery and the Defender...

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Out of curiosity, I did a search for Land Rover dealers here.

Calgary and Edmonton both have a population of about a million people. Each city has 1 dealer. And those two cities are 3 hours apart.

Doesn't look like much else. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[DieselRanger]

Which is why Land Rover's chronic unreliability is so perplexing, even impressive.

I was considering ordering a 110. I configured one online: https://build.landrover/C551BA24 It fit my criteria for a touring wagon: hefty 1900 lb payload, mid-size, off-road capable, and even steelies.

But what about reliability? For me, this is critical. Unfamiliar with the brand (I've never owned one), I researched.

What I found was shocking:

1. JD Powers -- lowest 2020 dependability rating in the U.S. Link: https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study

2. OSV -- This review of multiple consumer surveys concludes, categorically, that "Land Rover and Range Rover are not reliable. It might be painful to admit it, but the evidence is clear to see." Link: https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable-are-land-rover-and-range-rover/

3. Repair Pal - "The Land Rover Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 31st out of 32 for all car brands." Link: https://repairpal.com/reliability/land+rover

4. Consumer Reports -- concludes bluntly, "Reliability remains a serious concern." Link: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/land-rover/

5. Reliability Index -- consistently terrible ratings across Land Rover models. Link: https://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/132

6. Consumer Affairs -- This litany of consumer horror stories sort of sealed the deal. Failed engines. Failed brakes. Failed electronics. Poor dealer support. On and on. And, all on relatively new and recent vehicles. Link: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/land_rover.html?page=3#sort=top_reviews&filter=none

I could go on. Yet, every factual analysis i found came to a similar conclusion: Land Rover vehicles are unreliable, and are among the most unreliable vehicles sold in the United States and Europe.

Perhaps because I am not a brand loyalist, I have been fascinated at the mental gymnastics undertaken on this forum to avoid what any person objectively contemplating the fate of $50,000 would find to be overwhelming evidence.

The most generous and polite conclusion to be rendered about the new Defender's potential reliability -- and thus its merits as a remote touring (expedition) vehicle -- is, "we'll see." I hope it does break the mold and prove to be reliable. I might get one.

Yeah, we've been over this several times in the last 110+ pages. But because it's fun and I'm on a boring web call, I'll retort.

The RRS which represents their current platform and mechanical technology rated higher than Acura (MDX) and Audi's (Q7) offerings in 3-year dependability by JD Power (2017), and have recently been rated as the most improved brand by JD Power. The number of defects per 100 units for ALL vehicles by ALL manufacturers has steadily dropped over the last 30 years, and it's been widely discussed in automotive press that the leading complaint of ALL manufacturers is in Infotainment - lagginess, crashing, confusing to operate - and those are counted the same as "big" problems like transmissions grenading or failing (Jeep and Toyota recalls), differentials grenading (Toyota recall) frame welds failing (Jeep recalls), dashboard covering ripples (Jeep), misaligned tailgates (Jeep) and engine fires (Jeep and Toyota). A rising tide lifts all boats, and every Land Rover model is more reliable and durable than any vehicle 30 years ago. Additionally, Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee each score lower in JD Power initial quality and dependability than the RRS. But you don't care because you see what reinforces your own perceptions.

Land Rover's Td6 engine (not offered much longer unfortunately) is built by Ford, and is the same diesel (with some changes to improve towing capacity to over 10,000lbs) that Ford now offers on the F150 PowerStroke. The transmission is ZF's 8HP 8-speed that's in almost literally everything these days from Mercedes including AMGs to VW to BMW to Aston to RAM, and is going to be in the Defender as well.

My 2017 D5, which was the first model year of the new generation, and my vehicle which was a hair under the 30,000th vehicle off the assembly line in 2017 has been rock-solid for 35,000 miles of hard mountain, town, interstate, and off-road driving. TSBs? Sure, one to fix an incorrect notification of bad DEF quality (software reflash), an incorrect calculation of diesel oil dilution (software reflash), and a replacement of a brass EAS valve fitting and recalibration (literally only took 45 minutes minus the test drive, an hour all in drop off to pick up).

I spent nearly 2 years of waiting for my Touareg to be bought back by VW doing research on vehicles. Spent a ton of time on Jeepforum.com, the various RAM forums for the EcoDiesel, and Land Rover forums, and by far I saw many more serious problems on the Jeep side than I saw on the LR side, focusing on the most recent generations of both. I was only interested in diesels but kept the 4Runner and the Raptor on the list as a fallback. Even more telling was Jeep's active patrolling of the various forums and their aggressive actions in trying to get posters who reported problems offline to talk directly with them. The nail in the coffin was their being sucked into the Dieselgate black hole and the dealerships straight up lying to me trying to get me to drop a nonrefundable deposit on a vehicle I knew they did not have and had no guarantees at the time that they ever would.

 

[DieselRanger]

Out of curiosity, I did a search for Land Rover dealers here.

Calgary and Edmonton both have a population of about a million people. Each city has 1 dealer. And those two cities are 3 hours apart.

Doesn't look like much else. Unless I'm missing something.


View attachment 587244

When you have a production capacity that can't top one million vehicles and only sell a few hundred thousand vehicles per year worldwide, what do you expect? One next to every Starbucks Tim Horton's? They've always been a low-volume manufacturer and always will be relatively speaking.

Edited for Cultural Sensitivity

 

[Carson G]

So your saying the LC Wagons should have been renamed something besides "Landcruiser", just like LR branched off with the Discovery line, Toyota should have done the same with their wagon line? You'll have to accept my logic and I'll agree with yours...

We see today that the 200 is very similar to the Sequoia...and Tundra for that matter, just as we see with parts commonality between Discovery and the Defender...

Exactly in the beginning the Range Rover, Discovery, Defender all shared chassis design, suspension, axles and drivetrains. In the case of the Discovery and Range Rover they also shared similar body structures and interior.

 

[Carson G]

I have a question for you people who are concerned about reliability what exactly are you worried about failing?

 

[DieselRanger]

Can't argue with any of what you've said here. This is honestly the main reason I always steer people towards Porsche instead of other random high-end manufactures like Aston if you're serious about DD'ing the car. My GF has a 991.2 Turbo S and she drives it across the country (pre-RONA) and has accumulated 27k miles on it so far. It does everything she needs, and there's a Porsche dealer in every state...wish I could say the same for Ferrari, Mclaren, Aston, etc...

Sometimes daily driving vehicles is the thing that keeps them running. Let them sit in your garage on your foam tire cushions all winter and then take them out for a club autocross in June and that's when you run into problems.

The Porsche 930 and air-cooled Turbos actually needed to have about 7-10K miles put on them annually or the turbos would fail because when they sit a long time, the oil would drain out of the turbo, and once you started them up and drove them it took a while to get the oil circulating again - in the meantime, the squirrel blender was running the bearings dry, and in an air-cooled engine that's...well, that's very bad anyway, but it's suicidal for old air-cooled boxers. OTOH, if you regularly drove them hard you really had to pay attention to cam timing, and if you didn't the engine would grenade. Others have shown that if you daily drive such exotics as an 10-year old Aston Martin, they're actually pretty reliable, but not necessarily affordable.

I daily drive my D5 and let it stretch its legs and exercise the diff and low range box several times per year. It's been great so far. Another guy on another forum parks his all winter and only drives it in the summer and he gets weird clunkiness in the transmission from time to time that generally goes away after about a week of regular driving...don't know how that will turn out long-term but I'm sure he'll post on it.

 

[DieselRanger]

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.

Nope, SOTA updates. Just needs your home wifi or the built-in cellular connection. D5s are already getting remote diagnostics in the UK.

 

[DieselRanger]

I have a question for you people who are concerned about reliability what exactly are you worried about failing?

 

[nickw]

Sometimes daily driving vehicles is the thing that keeps them running. Let them sit in your garage on your foam tire cushions all winter and then take them out for a club autocross in June and that's when you run into problems.

The Porsche 930 and air-cooled Turbos actually needed to have about 7-10K miles put on them annually or the turbos would fail because when they sit a long time, the oil would drain out of the turbo, and once you started them up and drove them it took a while to get the oil circulating again - in the meantime, the squirrel blender was running the bearings dry, and in an air-cooled engine that's...well, that's very bad anyway, but it's suicidal for old air-cooled boxers. OTOH, if you regularly drove them hard you really had to pay attention to cam timing, and if you didn't the engine would grenade. Others have shown that if you daily drive such exotics as an 10-year old Aston Martin, they're actually pretty reliable, but not necessarily affordable.

I daily drive my D5 and let it stretch its legs and exercise the diff and low range box several times per year. It's been great so far. Another guy on another forum parks his all winter and only drives it in the summer and he gets weird clunkiness in the transmission from time to time that generally goes away after about a week of regular driving...don't know how that will turn out long-term but I'm sure he'll post on it.

First off, what in the &*#(# is a foam tire cushion!?

Secondly, totally agree with driving...there was a great episode of Lenos Garage talking about his Lambo Countach with like 80k+ miles that he drove daily, still running well, without a ton of problems...