New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Victory_Overland]

Stock Rubicon walking all over Poison Spider, so wrong again


Isn't one of the key principles of overlanding that you keep things simple? Help me understand how LR catered to simplicity in the new Defender.

Nope, not what I said; I said if you are going by specs, then the stock Jeep can't do it either. You are saying a vehicle can't do something that nobody has attempted to do it with yet; give it a break the vehicles are just barely being delivered and once again; nobody put on the label the Defender is meant and built for Rock-Crawling and PS type trails...........even though it's specs say it can do it, doesn't mean you should do it without accepting risk.

Do I think the new Defender can do PS; yep, 100% and expect some dings and dents just like everyone else. My 08 LR3 can do it if I accept the consequence that comes with the risk.............and then, as I said, we will do the next 1500 miles and 95% for what the real world uses their vehicles for. Oh wait, PS is actually just 1/10th of MOAB terrain and not even on the map of global exploration.

To assume that 95% of Jeep owners run PS is a joke and 95% of the Rubicons will never be within 50 miles of the Rubicon. Just cuz it can doesn't mean it will and can with the driver behind the wheel.

And you my friend have proved over and over you DO NOT know anything about OVERLANDING when you can only compare and post about ROCK-CRAWLING.

So here we go again............proof of bone stock LRs hitting and easily accomplishing the PS trails well before this Jeep video was published and still denial. Let us disregard the video you found and lets do the PS together.....you in your Rubi and me in my 08 LR3........there is no threat there, just good fun and I'll support you as a trail partner 100% and expect the same and we share some great campfire stories at night.

Give it time, you'll see a Defender hit the PS and then you guys will run out of that 1% you say the Defender can't do. Looks like we have 2 in for the PS in October; @JeepColorado are you in to come out and hopefully we can get a new Defender to join by then. Assuming fire season is over, I'm totally down for this challenge.

Love hearing a guy talk about OVERLANDING and then posts a video of Jeeps getting trailered to the trail!

 

[mpinco]

Yup. over 300K in 1980, a little over half a million today.

Less than 300K when we moved here, LR dealer in the old NAPA location and C Springs was a bedroom community to Denver. Bachelor's degrees at CU Springs (UCCS) had to be completed in Boulder. Surprised we had a LR dealer. Proximity to mountains enabled that. Heuberger Subaru was the largest Subaru dealer volume wise in the US. Ski country.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Less than 300K when we moved here, LR dealer in the old NAPA location and C Springs was a bedroom community to Denver. Bachelor's degrees at CU Springs (UCCS) had to be completed in Boulder. Surprised we had a LR dealer. Proximity to mountains enabled that. Heuberger Subaru was the largest Subaru dealer volume wise in the US. Ski country.

If I lived in NorCal or Colorado mountain access areas I would daily drive a Subaru or all-wheel drive vehicle for sure; the lifestyle and the environment is best suited for all-around vehicles of this nature.

 

[JeepColorado]

Nope, not what I said; I said if you are going by specs, then the stock Jeep can't do it either. You are saying a vehicle can't do something that nobody has attempted to do it with yet; give it a break the vehicles are just barely being delivered and once again; nobody put on the label the Defender is meant and built for Rock-Crawling and PS type trails...........even though it's specs say it can do it, doesn't mean you should do it without accepting risk.

Do I think the new Defender can do PS; yep, 100% and expect some dings and dents just like everyone else. My 08 LR3 can do it if I accept the consequence that comes with the risk.............and then, as I said, we will do the next 1500 miles and 95% for what the real world uses their vehicles for. Oh wait, PS is actually just 1/10th of MOAB terrain and not even on the map of global exploration.

To assume that 95% of Jeep owners run PS is a joke and 95% of the Rubicons will never be within 50 miles of the Rubicon. Just cuz it can doesn't mean it will and can with the driver behind the wheel.

And you my friend have proved over and over you DO NOT know anything about OVERLANDING when you can only compare and post about ROCK-CRAWLING.

So here we go again............let's disregard the video you found and lets do the PS together.....you in your Rubi and me in my 08 LR3........there is no threat there, just good fun and I'll support you as a trail partner 100% and expect the same and we share some great campfire stories at night.

Give it time, you'll see a Defender hit the PS and then you guys will run out of that 1% you say the Defender can't do.

Love hearing a guy talk about OVERLANDING and then posts a video of Jeeps getting trailered to the trail!

I'm asking about overlanding- simplicity is one of primary principles for vehicles when overlanding- with all of your vast knowledge you've yet to explain how LR aligned themselves with this in the Defender.

The Jeep is a simple vehicle with simple fixes and one in which is distancing itself from LR on reliability in the right direction according to the latest from JD Powers- but I guess JD Powers are just a bunch of trolls.

I get it, change is hard. To be a LR guy who for years got to bask in the glory of the old Defender and see a company slowly but surely creep away from you over decades and then to finally release your dream only to find that it's from a company that is clearly making a less reliable product, one that isn't as off-road capable as the competition and actually costs more. That'd be tough.

I'm not sure why there's so much Jeep trolling on here- they've owned the recreational 4x4 market and are making massive strides into the overlanding market bolstered by their much better riding dynamics, dominant off-road capability and now it looks like they are way more reliable all for less $ you can invest in travel.

 

[catmann]

Autocar has decided the Defender beats the Wrangler...Let the flaming begin ?

Top 10 best 4x4s and off-road cars 2024 | Autocar

Where we're going, we don't need roads: these 4x4s are capable on just about any surface

www.autocar.co.uk

Before the Defender, the Wrangler won:

 

[JackW]

Smartass friend of mine has added an external lunch box to his old 110.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Nobody is trolling or busting on Jeeps here; we all actually opening and you can quote us on the fact we say they are awesome. Yet, a few of the members here seem to think they are the same vehicle and they are not; not even the same class even though Jeep Wrangler is also an SUV....boo hoo.

ON that note, didn't you brag about your $63k worth of Rubicon and parts in the 4" of snow on Instagram Trail; what makes your Rubicon at $60+k different than someone who gets there's already configured to do what you need to modify for?

I'm not butt-hurt over one thing on the new Defender outside of not wanting to part for any vehicle from any manufacturer over $45k but that is just my preference; the other not having a diesel option for range...... YET; read all my posts you will see that is quite quotable too.

Seems you are more bent out shape over the Defender not being something than the LR owners on this forum so not sure why the projection of where something drifted off course outside of what you wanted.

I roll on the trail with no matter who and what they are driving if they are cool peeps; don't have any desire to listen to your constant negativety on the forum much less on the trail.........I retract my trail offer but I'll see you at the top of PS if you want to tag along for MOAB. JLR could have cured cancer with the Defender and you would still whine about it yet naively stroll past the laundry list of flaws that are widely discussed openly on the internet and reviews by honest Jeep owners.

The LR community wanted an OVERLANDER with great specs, great off-road and on-road capability, comfortable, and reliable, etc. Pretty sure LR has been doing that for a loooooonnnnngggggggg time. Reliability remains to be seen; we also can be quoted on that but again, we are not projecting something that is not or yet to be seen.

I personally do not have any respect for any person who openly and clearly degrades or constantly attacks what someone else's preference or decisions in life are; the constant generalizations that have no substance or value.

 

[JeepColorado]

Nobody is trolling or busting on Jeeps here; we all actually opening and you can quote us on the fact we say they are awesome. Yet, a few of the members here seem to think they are the same vehicle and they are not; not even the same class even though Jeep Wrangler is also an SUV....boo hoo.

ON that note, didn't you brag about your $63k worth of Rubicon and parts in the 4" of snow on Instagram Trail; what makes your Rubicon at $60+k different than someone who gets there's already configured to do what you need to modify for?

I'm not butt-hurt over one thing on the new Defender outside of not wanting to part for any vehicle from any manufacturer over $45k but that is just my preference; the other not having a diesel option for range...... YET; read all my posts you will see that is quite quotable too.

Seems you are more bent out shape over the Defender not being something than the LR owners on this forum so not sure why the projection of where something drifted off course outside of what you wanted.

I roll on the trail with no matter who and what they are driving if they are cool peeps; don't have any desire to listen to your constant negativety on the forum much less on the trail.........I retract my trail offer but I'll see you at the top of PS if you want to tag along for MOAB. JLR could have cured cancer with the Defender and you would still whine about it yet naively stroll past the laundry list of flaws that are widely discussed openly on the internet and reviews by honest Jeep owners.

The LR community wanted an OVERLANDER with great specs, great off-road and on-road capability, comfortable, and reliable, etc. Pretty sure LR has been doing that for a loooooonnnnngggggggg time. Reliability remains to be seen; we also can be quoted on that but again, we are not projecting something that is not or yet to be seen.

I personally do not have any respect for any person who openly and clearly degrades or constantly attacks what someone else's preference or decisions in life are; the constant generalizations that have no substance or value.

...and yet again for your long post, you still don't answer the primary question of my original post. How does today's "Defender" align with the core maxim of overlanding of simplicity?

I agree they are not in the same class- LR is a nice riding vehicle that can do some off-roading....if that's what you want, there are better options that ride just as nice and have a better history of reliability and cost less.

If you want a vehicle that is the most capable out of the box 4x4 that rides 95% as nice as the LR there is really only once choice.

LR copied the Wrangler decades ago- the first one even rode on a Jeep chassis. They have never measured up in off-roading although, admittedly they have rode nicer, but even that is now being challenged with the much improved driving dynamics of the Wrangler.

They've always been close in reliability and durability, but now the Wrangler is trouncing LR in that regard as well.

Still waiting to read from an expert like yourself how a multi-chambered electronically controlled air-bag suspension aligns with simplicity in the field far removed from support while adventure-traveling.

 

[DieselRanger]

So exactly what luxury features do you think LR offers that you can't get in a Jeep that are creating this massive gap? LR has air suspension,..not terribly complex to understand and available on the Grand Cherokee.

If there truly are a lot of complex features on the LR offerings then doesn't that say something about how they've failed to engineer simple solutions or at the very least say something about how terrible their handoff is at dealerships?

A couple of minutes with my Rubi clicking through the UConnect system and there wasn't much left to understand- simple, effective, easy- the way something designed for adventure travel should be would you agree?

I turn a knob and, if I need to, push a button. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. I'm a computer and systems engineer so things like that generally come easy unless the user experience really sucks. The worst I've ever seen was Cadillac's old CUE system and the first generation UConnect.

It's things like infotainment and driver menus for the setup of electronic dash, Bluetooth connectivity (half of which is the phone), and setup of wireless features that stymie people. If you've ever taken a JD Power initial quality survey (it takes like 30 minutes to go through...ain't nobody got time for that) then you know they have an entire section about how "well" your infotainment and electronics "work" and they intentionally mix in usability questions with reliability questions. As you suggest, there's a method to that madness but the top-level results bury the distinction.

When your Bluetooth fails to connect to your headphones, do you immediately call Apple or Samsung or Sennheiser and demand they take in the item and fix it? No, you fiddle with a button, reboot one or the other, and a minute or two later, it just works, and you shrug and go on with life. Doesn't matter that one thing or the other was confused over channel deconfliction with a neighbor's device and key validation and all that...that's way below your GAS threshold.

But when your phone won't connect with your premium SUV in your garage because the car is trying to figure out whether it should be connecting to your phone or your wife's which is sitting on the countertop just inside the door to the garage? "************** LAND ROVER BULLSH*T FIX THIS NOW! AND I WANT A LOANER!" And then when the dealer returns it after reflashing the bluetooth module and it happens again, people piss and moan that it wasn't fixed right in the first place.

Do you have a better explanation why Acura sucks so much worse than Honda? It's exactly the same cars, the people are just less tolerant of things not meeting their expectations that accounts for luxury vehicles falling below average across the board in initial quality.

Porsche, for example...well below average for initial quality, but by the 3 year point they are at the top of several classes...one can either conclude that they have terrible production quality but excellent dealer support, or people just get experienced using the features and stop complaining.

 

[Carson G]

...and yet again for your long post, you still don't answer the primary question of my original post. How does today's "Defender" align with the core maxim of overlanding of simplicity?

I agree they are not in the same class- LR is a nice riding vehicle that can do some off-roading....if that's what you want, there are better options that ride just as nice and have a better history of reliability and cost less.

If you want a vehicle that is the most capable out of the box 4x4 that rides 95% as nice as the LR there is really only once choice.

LR copied the Wrangler decades ago- the first one even rode on a Jeep chassis. They have never measured up in off-roading although, admittedly they have rode nicer, but even that is now being challenged with the much improved driving dynamics of the Wrangler.

They've always been close in reliability and durability, but now the Wrangler is trouncing LR in that regard as well.

Still waiting to read from an expert like yourself how a multi-chambered electronically controlled air-bag suspension aligns with simplicity in the field far removed from support while adventure-traveling.

Plain and simple it’s doesn’t in out of the box form. Electrically and driveline wise it’s not much more complicated than a Wrangler is. Suspension is where it gets somewhat complicated, the electronics aspect of the suspension can be completely bypassed just like previous versions. Simply pull a fuse and manually air up each bag and continue on your way. If you have a full bag failure you can still drive on the bump stops if you absolutely have to. Its also would be stupid easy to swap out the air bags for coils as Land Rover already makes the springs. Simply remove the air bags, valves, and compressor then fit the new springs and change the vehicle CCF with a gap tool and you’re on your way with coil springs. The Defender is kinda like a Swiss Army knife good at a lot of things but not exceptional at any one thing. The Jeep is exceptional off road but it’s not as good on road and never will be as long as it has solid axles it’s also absolute garbage at carrying or towing heavy loads by comparison.

 

[Victory_Overland]

@Carson G Wait, do you mean modify the suspension on a new vehicle, or buy aftermarket parts, or tailor my vehicle to my needs and desires? How dare you; this is lunacy and that would mean we are doing what Jeep, Ford, Toyota, Dodge, Bollinger, Tesla, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, Chevy, list goes onto infinity............oh and Infinity peeps; they modify their cars too! I mean Bugatti makes the fastest car on the planet; why does it need an aftermarket; oh, to make it faster, better, personalized, etc.....................

Oh, you mean JLR and aftermarket companies makes coil options too, and other aftermarket parts to modify our Land Rovers?.............blasphemy! Here I thought every Series I, II, III, and legacy Defender still rolling around the planet was bone stock, two dead sheep in the back straight from the dealer.

I can't possibly think of any other community that could possibly be known more for highly modifying their vehicles for performance increase or aftermarket changes to things they didn't like, need, desire from the dealer, or were just plain old crappy designs on the option list.

Crickets............

@Carson G I hope you get my satire......

 

[Carson G]

@Carson G Wait, do you mean modify the suspension on a new vehicle, or buy aftermarket parts, or tailor my vehicle to my needs and desires? How dare you; this is lunacy and that would mean we are doing what Jeep, Ford, Toyota, Dodge, Bollinger, Tesla, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, Chevy, list goes onto infinity............oh and Infinity peeps; they modify their cars too! I mean Bugatti makes the fastest car on the planet; why does it need an aftermarket; oh, to make it faster, better, personalized, etc.....................

Oh, you mean JLR and aftermarket companies makes coil options too, and other aftermarket parts to modify our Land Rovers?.............blasphemy! Here I thought every Series I, II, III, and legacy Defender still rolling around the planet was bone stock, two dead sheep in the back straight from the dealer.

I can't possibly think of any other community that could possibly be known more for highly modifying their vehicles for performance increase or aftermarket changes to things they didn't like, need, desire from the dealer, or were just plain old crappy designs on the option list.

Crickets............

@Carson G I hope you get my satire......

I know right. I mean who the heck would wanna modify a vehicle and make it their own. You’d have to be bloody crazy to do that.

 

[XJLI]

When your Bluetooth fails to connect to your headphones, do you immediately call Apple or Samsung or Sennheiser and demand they take in the item and fix it? No, you fiddle with a button, reboot one or the other, and a minute or two later, it just works, and you shrug and go on with life. Doesn't matter that one thing or the other was confused over channel deconfliction with a neighbor's device and key validation and all that...that's way below your GAS threshold.

But when your phone won't connect with your premium SUV in your garage because the car is trying to figure out whether it should be connecting to your phone or your wife's which is sitting on the countertop just inside the door to the garage? "************** LAND ROVER BULLSH*T FIX THIS NOW! AND I WANT A LOANER!" And then when the dealer returns it after reflashing the bluetooth module and it happens again, people piss and moan that it wasn't fixed right in the first place.

I work in AV automation, and this is a generational thing. Everything runs on software now, so sometimes that stuff just gets cranky and needs a reboot. People dont get it. Sometimes the $400 Sony headunit in my truck doesnt load CarPlay correctly. I turn it off, turn it back on, and it works! But sometimes, people don't want to hear "just turn it off and turn it back on again."

 

[Victory_Overland]

Many times these systems have internal surge protection; any hiccup in power and they lock up and require a reboot. The flight test system I use in the helicopter is a 28vdc system but can run all the way down to 13v in a degraded evolution; it self isolates "essential and non-essential" monitoring but requires a reboot to return to full function. Part of the reason is manual interface like resetting a circuit breaker; should only be done once and then if it doesn't stay there is a manual requirement for electrical inspection as the host is telling you "hey, there is a problem". The system we use is almost bulletproof with redundancy. When we swap from battery start on the aircraft to the generator, we get power surges at times and it the acquisition unit (AU) goes into isolation mode(s) or completely to (limp mode); even I do not know the status unless I loose functionality but I correlate it with functionality on my display unit and other telemetry and can determine what and where I lost functionality and whether I can continue, reset, or return to troubleshoot more in depth.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment tied to a multi-million dollar aircraft; you know how I get it out of limp mode.....................I reach back and unplug the power cord from the AU which acts as a reboot switch; count to ten and plug it back in; this process has been built into the systems for decades and we tune it as more and more electronics and their specific power specificities become more finicky.

Alternators on cars are the same way; everyone thinks modern alternators turn and they provide constant power and that is not true at all. However, when they are cycling on and off (smart alternator) there are micro-surges and every modern component on the vehicle that receives power generally has its own +/- limit (not electrical engineer but know more than the basics with my work) and many times these are causing a break in the constant BIT the component running; it thinks there is a problem or there is a relay or switch or surge-protect or whatever failsafe is there and requires a reset under normal conditions to return to normal function.

This concept is actually very basic to the user; its on the inventor/engineers, etc. and many times the regulation that makes it transparent to the user

 

[EricTyrrell]

LR copied the Wrangler decades ago- the first one even rode on a Jeep chassis. They have never measured up in off-roading although, admittedly they have rode nicer, but even that is now being challenged with the much improved driving dynamics of the Wrangler.

Not sure if you've seen them side by side, but Defender was the king of off-road capability in the 80s and 90s. While YJ was rolling on leaf springs until 95, Defender had been on coils since 1983. Even when the TJ came out in 97, the Defender's longer forged control arms were far superior to the short little stamped arms found on the TJ. It wasn't until the JK and LR's pivot to London chic cars that Jeep pulled ahead.