Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I agree. But I'd like it to be a comparison between them and bridging ladders. I've seen a number of videos and photo series and have yet to see examples where they work in situations were bridging ladders wouldn't.
Pillow talk...oops Pillowtrack
- Thread starter Doin_It
- Start date
there was a huge long thread on discoweb where Pilloe track took part and provided lots of still photos and a number of videos.
I not only think they are a bad idea I think they would be dangerous and would not use them.
one of the key factors in all recovery work is control.
I would rather take a longer period of time with a recovery and have 100% control during the recovery then to have a tool that speeds the process but during that process the truck will be unstable and unpredictable.
take a balloon and push down and compress it. feel how as you press down and increase the pressure of the air inside that the ballon gets less stable. as you roll your hand around on the balloon it wants to squirm out from under your hand. this is because at you increase the pressure down the air will move from one area of the balloon to another nearly instantaniously always going to the point of least resistance.
that is the direct oposite of what you are looking for when you are trying to brace something. when you are trying to suport or brace something you are trying to use the most simple machine a 'lever'. you are using that lever to transfer the support in one place to under the tire of the truck that needs supporting.
the pillows will ALWAYS be trying to get out from under the tires thats is what by nature compressed air wants to do.
take a good look at every picture that has been posted and the videos as well. the weight of the truck has compressed the pillow and pushed the iar out from under the tire and into the other areas of the bag. The trucks are really only getting a inch or so of real lift and as the truck moves the bag then fights to redistribute that compressed air.
I to commend anybody that trys to develope a new novel product but hey not every idea is a good one.
I have recovered hundreds of trucks over the years from all kinds of places in mud,rocks, snow, off cliffs. down deep trenches rolled against trees. you name it. and in all that time I cant really think of a single time that a long sausage full of air would have really helped me? Add into that the unpredictable nature of the compressed air and I just feel these are not a great idea.
I did have a email conversation with the guy from pillow tracks and offered to test a set and video the results both to them and post them on youtube and they declined. That offer is still out there.
this is just my personal opinion on what I have seen.
I not only think they are a bad idea I think they would be dangerous and would not use them.
one of the key factors in all recovery work is control.
I would rather take a longer period of time with a recovery and have 100% control during the recovery then to have a tool that speeds the process but during that process the truck will be unstable and unpredictable.
take a balloon and push down and compress it. feel how as you press down and increase the pressure of the air inside that the ballon gets less stable. as you roll your hand around on the balloon it wants to squirm out from under your hand. this is because at you increase the pressure down the air will move from one area of the balloon to another nearly instantaniously always going to the point of least resistance.
that is the direct oposite of what you are looking for when you are trying to brace something. when you are trying to suport or brace something you are trying to use the most simple machine a 'lever'. you are using that lever to transfer the support in one place to under the tire of the truck that needs supporting.
the pillows will ALWAYS be trying to get out from under the tires thats is what by nature compressed air wants to do.
take a good look at every picture that has been posted and the videos as well. the weight of the truck has compressed the pillow and pushed the iar out from under the tire and into the other areas of the bag. The trucks are really only getting a inch or so of real lift and as the truck moves the bag then fights to redistribute that compressed air.
I to commend anybody that trys to develope a new novel product but hey not every idea is a good one.
I have recovered hundreds of trucks over the years from all kinds of places in mud,rocks, snow, off cliffs. down deep trenches rolled against trees. you name it. and in all that time I cant really think of a single time that a long sausage full of air would have really helped me? Add into that the unpredictable nature of the compressed air and I just feel these are not a great idea.
I did have a email conversation with the guy from pillow tracks and offered to test a set and video the results both to them and post them on youtube and they declined. That offer is still out there.
this is just my personal opinion on what I have seen.
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Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I was trying to be fair and wait for a "Pillow Track/Bridging Ladder Shootout" but I agree pretty much with all you said. Just the thought of using them in a situation that would prove dangerous if control were lost makes my skin crawl.
That said, it would still be good to see a real world independent comparison.
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
Muskyman, I appreciate your opinion and hope that you are able to be among those get to test a set!
Sounds like you'd give them a workout...:snorkel:
I've got a few other things on my list, could you email and try to test those too!?
:victory:
regards, brother.
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
That'd be a good review. to see where the strengths and weaknesses are, using them as intended.
I sure like the way they stow so small. pretty cool.
That being said, you guys should know that I have a set of psp sand ladders that are cut down and doubled up to use as bridging ladders, that I use on a regular basis. So, I'm certainly a traditionalist when it comes to recovery.
These just seemed like a pretty good addition or alternative in some cases.
Pillowtrack
New member
Well… will try address the issues presented above one by one:
- Hideout: We do not believe in deceive, hence we never pretend to be 'users'.
- Product test: Along the Pillowtrack R&D process we had tested it (and its various versions) in many terrain and recovery conditions. Obviously not every terrain type and every recovery situation could be simulated with every vehicle. We are aware of product limitations; caused by technology, cost and pure physics, and constantly try to improve. Users experience from around the world is the driver from improvements – we more than welcome this constructive feedback.
- Review: As much as we try not too many will accept OUR product review to be independent. Never the less, this thread might be useful. http://www.northwestoverlandsociety...orumid/1/postid/37191/view/topic/Default.aspx
- Pillowtracks Vs. Bridging Ladders: Comparing the two is not an easy task as they serve different users in different situations (see following post). In a nutshell: Bridging ladders lack the lifting (jacking) ability. E.g: when stuck on a high center, a flat Pillowtrack could be inserted under the free-spinning wheel, and then inflated to lift the chassis while regaining traction. Every explorer knows his vehicle (weight, tiers etc.), storage limitations and expected terrain conditions. Pillowtrack is continuously improved to cover as many of these situations.
- Rollover: Misuse of any recovery device could be dangerous: cars have fallen off hi-jacks, torn by winches and more. Using the Pillowtracks not according to instructions might end up sadly. For example Pillowtracks should not be used on side slopes, but there is no rollover issue when using them as trench fillers or in wheel articulation situations.
Pillowtracks offer a slightly different recovery/mobility perspective – I will present it in another post (this one got to long already)
Pillowtrack
- Hideout: We do not believe in deceive, hence we never pretend to be 'users'.
- Product test: Along the Pillowtrack R&D process we had tested it (and its various versions) in many terrain and recovery conditions. Obviously not every terrain type and every recovery situation could be simulated with every vehicle. We are aware of product limitations; caused by technology, cost and pure physics, and constantly try to improve. Users experience from around the world is the driver from improvements – we more than welcome this constructive feedback.
- Review: As much as we try not too many will accept OUR product review to be independent. Never the less, this thread might be useful. http://www.northwestoverlandsociety...orumid/1/postid/37191/view/topic/Default.aspx
- Pillowtracks Vs. Bridging Ladders: Comparing the two is not an easy task as they serve different users in different situations (see following post). In a nutshell: Bridging ladders lack the lifting (jacking) ability. E.g: when stuck on a high center, a flat Pillowtrack could be inserted under the free-spinning wheel, and then inflated to lift the chassis while regaining traction. Every explorer knows his vehicle (weight, tiers etc.), storage limitations and expected terrain conditions. Pillowtrack is continuously improved to cover as many of these situations.
- Rollover: Misuse of any recovery device could be dangerous: cars have fallen off hi-jacks, torn by winches and more. Using the Pillowtracks not according to instructions might end up sadly. For example Pillowtracks should not be used on side slopes, but there is no rollover issue when using them as trench fillers or in wheel articulation situations.
Pillowtracks offer a slightly different recovery/mobility perspective – I will present it in another post (this one got to long already)
Pillowtrack
why start a new post? keep the discussion going and in one place so people can see all opinions and questions.
starting a new thread makes it sound like you want to step away from critics in hope they will stay out of the new thread.
PM me here, I propose you send a set out to me and I will take them on a club trip and we will use them as directed and compare them side by side with both aluminum traction plates and waffle board style bridging ladders. Of coarse I will return the demo set after the test and I commit to follow your directions and be fair and open minded. I would also be very glad to have you come along and demonstrate the correct usage and best use practices of the units. I have access to a good sized closed private network of trails that would be a perfect location for a comparison of the product. I can also provide trucks from small 4x4's up to and including a uni-mog.
shoot me a PM and I would be glad to make this happen.
Thom
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
Thom made pretty much the same offer over 6 months ago.
dust devil
Observer
I prefer to use high quality tires and refined driving technique to keep forward motion going. Not in 35 years have I found a situation that could only be cured by using tracks, ladders, or other similar gizmos. I would put the $300 toward a good winch.
I would say that the use of such gizmos has more to do with controlled passage then "only be cured by" type situation. I too think good tires and good judgement will take you alot farther then anything but getting a dozen or more trucks through the same problem spot in a timely fashion other means can really help.
Stacking rocks , laying a spare tire in a deep rut or having one truck set up as a winch mule are all ways of doing this. Electing to bridge a deep rut can be a great way to keep a caravan moving. Is it for everybody? well no its not, infact its not even my preffered method but it sure has a place and will continue too.
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
here, here. Do most fishermen keep one type of lure in their tacklebox? )(Maybe the starving, unsuccessful ones...lol) The smart ones have different tools for different water, temperature, and bottom conditions. They all have their place at one time or another.
I'd rather bring my psp bridging ladders, a pillowtrack, a waffle board and an X-jack than a winch, personally. Its all kit I can choose from when I'm packing my rig, and allows me to choose the right tool for the job. I had a winch on my rig for several years and didn't use it but once. And that was on the freeway..haha.
Pillowtrack
New member
Taking muskyman's advice – continuing on this post:
We differentiate two off-road hurdle situations:
Mobility situation: meaning one expects trouble getting over an obstacle, but the vehicle has not lost motion yet, i.e. blocked but not jammed.
Recovery situation: meaning the vehicle is stuck, unable to move; usually due to lose of traction.
In a Mobility situation (rut crossing, step barrier, wheel articulation etc.) the Pillowtracks are used as a filler; placing it inside a trench or a rut for example.
In short mobility is a: Inflate-Place-Drive situation. Sure one has to do it right: placing two Pillowtracks one on top of the other to fill a deep trench is OK; yet using even one Pillowtrack on a side slope could be very dangerous.
When using Pillowtrack for mobility, one should keep slow and continues motion (low gear). This allows the dynamic nature of the Pillowtrack to fit itself to the tire on one side and the terrain on the other, Pillowtrack practically "wrapping" the tire.
Since the vehicle is "driving on air" the feeling is smoother, lacking the noise of shooting stones and screaming engines.
In a Recovery situation (high center, two wheels in a trench, sand etc.) the Pillowtracks are used to a) regain traction b) lift the body (or axle) from the ground. This is achieved by placing a deflated Pillowtrack under the wheel who has lost traction, and inflating it. When placed correctly the inflated Pillowtrack should lift the body from the ground and resume traction to that wheel, enabling mobility (self recovery). Again: driving should be at a slow, constant speed (avoid 'wheeling' on the pillow….). Occasionally the Pillowtracks will 'shoot' back words, but even so, in most cases the vehicle will move forward just enough to get over the obstacle.
In short Recovery is a Place-Inflate-Drive situation.
Just noticed: forgot to refer to low grip surfaces (sand, mud etc.) – will do that next…
Pillowtrack
(oh… and always read the manual first, the above is no substitute
)
We differentiate two off-road hurdle situations:
Mobility situation: meaning one expects trouble getting over an obstacle, but the vehicle has not lost motion yet, i.e. blocked but not jammed.
Recovery situation: meaning the vehicle is stuck, unable to move; usually due to lose of traction.
In a Mobility situation (rut crossing, step barrier, wheel articulation etc.) the Pillowtracks are used as a filler; placing it inside a trench or a rut for example.
In short mobility is a: Inflate-Place-Drive situation. Sure one has to do it right: placing two Pillowtracks one on top of the other to fill a deep trench is OK; yet using even one Pillowtrack on a side slope could be very dangerous.
When using Pillowtrack for mobility, one should keep slow and continues motion (low gear). This allows the dynamic nature of the Pillowtrack to fit itself to the tire on one side and the terrain on the other, Pillowtrack practically "wrapping" the tire.
Since the vehicle is "driving on air" the feeling is smoother, lacking the noise of shooting stones and screaming engines.
In a Recovery situation (high center, two wheels in a trench, sand etc.) the Pillowtracks are used to a) regain traction b) lift the body (or axle) from the ground. This is achieved by placing a deflated Pillowtrack under the wheel who has lost traction, and inflating it. When placed correctly the inflated Pillowtrack should lift the body from the ground and resume traction to that wheel, enabling mobility (self recovery). Again: driving should be at a slow, constant speed (avoid 'wheeling' on the pillow….). Occasionally the Pillowtracks will 'shoot' back words, but even so, in most cases the vehicle will move forward just enough to get over the obstacle.
In short Recovery is a Place-Inflate-Drive situation.
Just noticed: forgot to refer to low grip surfaces (sand, mud etc.) – will do that next…
Pillowtrack
(oh… and always read the manual first, the above is no substitute
)
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
I think everyone here understands the intended use and is capable of reading the manual and most would probably even actually read it.
What people are asking to see is some extensive real world independent testing/comparison, not statements of the more or less obvious.
I would hazard to guess that most here aren't really willing to spend $300 to "try" something only to find out that in real world application it adds little to nothing to kit they already have.
On the flip side, I'm willing to bet that if independent testing/comparison showed that "PillowTracks are a very cool and worthwhile addition to your recovery kit.", you'd get a fair few orders from people on this forum.
What people are asking to see is some extensive real world independent testing/comparison, not statements of the more or less obvious.
I would hazard to guess that most here aren't really willing to spend $300 to "try" something only to find out that in real world application it adds little to nothing to kit they already have.
On the flip side, I'm willing to bet that if independent testing/comparison showed that "PillowTracks are a very cool and worthwhile addition to your recovery kit.", you'd get a fair few orders from people on this forum.
That a very strange statement. I'm not sure why you would even try to present your own review as "independent". Only an exceptionally naive person would think they were.
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
ding, ding, ding....
as if it were coming out of my own mouth. How do you know my thoughts so well? spying on me? lol. :elkgrin:
If I was sure on my design and the purpose it served:
- I'd find the person(s) in the community near me, that would by trusted by their sphere of influence to provide a sound commentary on the product. I'd tag along to answer questions and direct use.
- If the product failed, I'd call it great field testing. I'd rather have it fail then, when I could see, in person, the reason for failure.
- If it doesn't fail and meets all expectations, you have a solid, no-nonsense opinion by the member of a larger community that can be disseminated and will = sales of that product.
This is "how its done".
This community values reliabilily and build quality above all else. They pay readily for the best product out there. What they do not do, is pay $300.00 to be the guinea pig. We have waffle boards, psp plates, tig welded aluminum bridging ladders and x-jacks that do the job already, and they have EXTENSIVE testing to back up their $200-300.00 per unit price.
I will say again, I really like this idea. Very cool. But if there's not a post that says, "sent to so and so (like Thom or someone else) for testing, will post up report" in the next week or so....
I'm just going to ignore your product. haha. Seriously.
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