Questions for the Suburban/Yukon XL owners out there...

[Buliwyf]

What is the trucks payload rating? And what do ya'll weigh? Keep in mind, maxing it out, can be a bit of a headache.

My passengers and me (5) this weekend: 800#.
55g stanley tool box, chain, ratchet straps, tow strap, chainsaw: 100# (maybe as much a 150#)
Highlift jack and assorted tools under the rear seat: 100#
5 Back packs (complete with tents/bags/bivvys): 175# total
2 coolers: 100#

1275#.

3100#-1275= 1825. That means I'm out of luck adding a slide in camper, and if I wanted to go that route, then I should have bought a 350/3500 with 4500# cargo capacity.

Same math applies to a little 'burb. Google puts 'burbs around 1500-2200# cargo capacity only.

 

[Kyle Kelso]

I guess you just need to be honest and realistic with yourself and your expectations. Bigger and stronger parts are better for off-roading and it becomes more evident the more weight you add and the rougher the off roading. I think we can all agree (without any stating of brands or models or penis size) that this is a fact and not an opinion. What is an opinion, and in this case your decision to make, is how good is good enough and what is the right balance.

Are the stronger parts worth the weight or cost penalty? Are they beneficial to YOU? Lets be real here the 1500 Burb parts are stronger than your Odessy and "potentially" your Sequoia (not trying to start a flame war!!)

The 2500 DOES have a better rear axle, it does have a better tranny, it does have more ground clearance with stock suspension, etc. These are facts, not really debatable.

How important are those things to you?

I found my GMT800 2500 fully loaded LT for an insignificant increase over the average 1500 price so it was a no brainer really. Would I have paid double for a beat up base model fleet truck? No, I'd choose a good 1500 most likely.

There are lots of guys running 1500s and some more silly than others ( Crazy ). Based on my interpretation of what you are wanting to do and being that you are coming from a Sequoia I would think a 1500 would be just fine provided you plan on a tranny rebuild. Just keep in mind the more load you put on the 1500 the mpg gap starts to close as a bigger engine doesn't have to work as hard. I got better mpg than my folks v8 4runner pulling trailers into a head wind, but much worse driving around empty.

Oh and the GMT800 is better than the GMT900, just cuz it is and I have one and so it's better cuz it is. Hah!

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Great points, and I don't disagree at all that the 2500 has stronger parts. I agree that's not debatable. But I really don't think I need that level of performance and I really am trying to keep it as light as possible. I've done the math and I just don't see how we exceed the 1500 payload ever, UNLESS we get a bigger travel trailer. But I'll cross that bridge if it comes up, but I will already admit that the growth in size of trailer and need for more capable tow vehicle seems to happen to a lot of people, so I'm not ruling it out for myself either.

Sounds to me like you should be shopping for a 1500 while keeping an eye open for a sweet deal on a 2500
Good luck to ya!


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[CrazyDrei]

There are lots of guys running 1500s and some more silly than others ( Crazy

). Based on my interpretation of what you are wanting to do and being that you are coming from a Sequoia I would think a 1500 would be just fine provided you plan on a tranny rebuild. Just keep in mind the more load you put on the 1500 the mpg gap starts to close as a bigger engine doesn't have to work as hard. I got better mpg than my folks v8 4runner pulling trailers into a head wind, but much worse driving around empty.

Great points, and I don't disagree at all that the 2500 has stronger parts. I agree that's not debatable. But I really don't think I need that level of performance and I really am trying to keep it as light as possible. I've done the math and I just don't see how we exceed the 1500 payload ever, UNLESS we get a bigger travel trailer. But I'll cross that bridge if it comes up, but I will already admit that the growth in size of trailer and need for more capable tow vehicle seems to happen to a lot of people, so I'm not ruling it out for myself either.

mnwanders,

Sounds like you have filtered everything out of this discussion that you need. 1500 are perfect for just about anyone until you start to consistently pull a 5-7k trailer on every trip. And as Kyle Kelso pointed out I have attempted to beat my 2000 GMT800 Sub into the ground for the last two years as hard as I possibly could in the South West and other then a couple cheap repairs in last 150k miles it's still my every day driver. Still confused how and why the truck is still running.

BTW, not to be a hypocrite but my wife wants a GMT900 so we will most likely be getting a 2014 2500 Yukon XL.

Good luck with your next truck, we can't wait to see what you get and your story.

 

[Jelorian]

Haven't been on the forums for awhile and just saw this thread. I love my 03 1500 Z71 GMT800. The only thing that kept me from getting the 2500 with the 6.0 was the gas mileage. Since it is my weekend rig and it would most likely be fairly loaded on any given trip, 16-18mpg vs 10-12mpg getting to the start of the trail heads was a deal breaker for me. I love the fact that the 2500 has the beefier transmission and diffs and the heavy duty frame though. It also costs a little more to mod, if you find anything else you want to upgrade. If mileage isn't a concern, then get a 2500, mild 2"-3" lift, and 33's and you are good to go. Plus you can tow without much worry of the 10 bolt diff of the 1500 going out.

 

[al_burpe]

This is a long-winded post for all those Suburban/Yukon XL owners out there. I’m just curious what advantages/disadvantages there are for a guy to consider between a 1500 versus a 2500, and a GMT800 versus a GMT900? I believe I’m in the market for a better family adventure vehicle and I think I’ve decided that I need to move up from my Toyota Sequoia to a Suburban. Here’s my rationale and tell me what you think.

First, the biggest factor…we like to road trip, and there are six of us plus a dog. We live in Minnesota, and crushing miles at a relatively high rate of speed (if possible) and in safety and comfort is necessary to get to the mountains and places that we like to visit.

Second, believe it or not, but I’m actually considering the Suburban as my most economical and eco-friendly option. I know that sounds ridiculous but hear me out first. I like to maintain as small of a footprint as possible. I am first motivated by being cheap, and second I am motivated by being eco-friendly if at all possible. Ideally this would involve a lot of tent camping and backpacking and moving long range by our Honda Odyssey. For day to day use for a city family like us, there is no more useful and economical vehicle than a minivan in my opinion. However, I’ve noticed that the more safe and comfortable I make my family feel, the more places outdoors we (I) get to go. Hence that means car camping (or “overlanding”) seems to be more their speed.

So this journey began a few years ago after we took our Honda Odyssey to Glacier, MT. We camped in a tent and hauled our gear and bikes in a rooftop Thule and rear hitch rack. But two problems emerged, my wife was paranoid about camping in bear country, and the Odyssey went from its normal 21-22mpg down to about 13-14 with the thule box and bikes on top and trying to travel in the mountains at a decent speed. So I came home from that trip and decided that the secretly desired Land Crusier and RTT might actually be justified. So we now have a teardrop trailer with RTT on top so that everyone sleeps in comfort and my wife is more comfortable in bear and snake country. But after driving a few Land Cruisers I determined that they were probably too small for my family. I instead opted for the Sequoia for a few reasons: it had the same reliable V8 motor as the Land Cruiser, it had better leg room in the third row than the Land Cruiser, it had more cargo room behind the third row (but pails in comparison to the van), I thought I could maybe get close to the off-road performance of a Land Cruiser, and at the time I believed it would be more economical and maybe better off road than a Suburban or Ford Expedition. But as my kids grow in size (ages 14, 14, 12, 10) and we seem to haul more toys (fishing poles, guns, etc.) the more we get outdoors, I’m thinking that the bigger engine and cargo space of the Suburban might actually save me more gas and money. For starters, if I can store it inside the vehicle, I don’t have the drag of the Thule box up top, and I think the bigger engine (5.3L and 300hp vs 4.7L and 240hp) will actually keep us up to speed better, therefore using less gas. (This spring we average about 14.5 mpg pulling the teardrop to Big Bend NP and back. I was hoping it would be better than that for a 1500 lb trailer.)

Finally, while I think it would be awesome to go on as difficult of trails as possible, from what I can tell, as long as I’m toting around more than 5 people, a Suburban is probably as useful off pavement as the Sequoia. While the Sequoia is more nimble than people give it credit for, it’s never going to be a JKU or 4runner. Realistically I’m more likely going to soft-road it to a camping area and then walk after that. I don’t see serious off-roading in my future.

So back to my question, what are the advantages of a 2500 Suburban over a 1500? I've read a bunch of your posts, and it seems like 2500's are prized, but I’m thinking a 1500 is probably best in keeping with my "stay as light as possible" philosophy, and since I don’t plan on towing much more than a couple thousand pounds at the max, should I even consider a 2500? Also, the payload seems to be much greater for the GMT800 than the GMT900, and I like the looks of the GMT800 better. Is there any reason to spend the extra cash for the newer GMT900?

Sorry for the long-winded post. I appreciate any insights you can give.

Seeing as how your first priority is being cheap, I am curious why you haven't considered the Ford Expedition EL. It has roughly the same cargo capacity as a 1500 Suburban. I just added a second kid to my family and went through a similar process in getting a new vehicle for my family. Being cheap was my first priority as well, and I found the resale value on the Expeditions including the EL to be much lower than the similar year and mileage Suburban's. I wound up with a 2005 regular sized Expedition. Anyway, I don't want to argue about one being better than the other, just point out that you can probably get into an Expedition EL for less than a Suburban or Yukon XL. It doesn't come with a solid rear axel, and I know that to be drawback for many on here.

 

[rayra]

when I was shopping for my used '02 I had a very hard time finding any available 2500s. Their price premium was about $1500 over the same year k1500. And they were usually in the far hinterlands of Los Angeles and rode hard and put away wet. By the time I finally found a used vehicle that fit my overall condition criteria it had taken a year and a quit caring about the color of the vehicle. I already knew better than to get a black vehicle for off-road use in the desert southwest and did it anyway. Had long experience with the vehicles and drivetrain / trans, so wasn't overly concerned about the 4L60E. But I have some future business plans that would benefit from the 2500 / 4L80E, but I figure I'll probably buy another then. OR it will probably be a 2500 pickup with a fifth wheel setup anyway. Even here in SoCal, the vehicle license costs are relatively low for such an old vehicle and likewise my driving requirements and age and prior service / USAA makes it all pretty affordable to have multiple vehicles. And my old C10 needs to go anyway. PRetty much been parked since I got the Sub 3-1/2yrs ago

 

[gopherslayer]

After following this thread from the beginning and the purse swinging I’ll give you my take. Having the same vintages of 1500 Silverado and 2500 Yukon XL I would take the 2500 for the drivetrain. The 6.0L and 4L80E are very nice compared to the 5.3 4L60E combo. The gearing in the trannys are different but the way they shift separates them more. Do I wish the 4L80E had a higher numerically first gear? Yes, absolutely I wish it was like the 4L60E. Otherwise I’d take the 2500 all day long.

My 2011Silverado is a 2500HD and is even better than the Yukon. The 6 speed is smooth and the shift pattern keeps it in the power band even under light throttle. I’m having a hard time convincing myself I need a tune for it. Both of my 6.0s motivate well, I don’t have the slouches people complain about. We have a 2017 Quigley van with a 6.0 at work and that thing is a pooch. I guess the occasional turd gets out and I drove one, I can see how some people think 6.0s are gutless.

 

[RussB]

I just went through this shopping thought process.

Some notes from my experience, in my area (Sacramento/Bay Area):
1) If you're looking at Expeditions, you have to decide if you're ok with the spark plug shenanigans on the pre-08 trucks, or are ok paying $10k+ for an 08/09+.
2) If you're looking at Excursions, 90% of them seem to be diesels and $20k+. Ouch. I personally didn't like the three-way door on the rear, either.
3) 4x4 GMT900s are still $10k+ locally, unless you find an ex-government truck with vinyl interior, no third row, and 160k miles on it. Pass.
4) This narrowed me down to the GMT800 Suburban/Yukon XL. I ended up weighing the pros/cons of the drivetrains and decided that I was most comfortable giving up fuel economy for the perceived improved reliability of the 6.0/4L80 combo. As several have noted, the 2500s are much less common on the ground; the Yukon XL 2500s are even less common.

I ended up finding an '03 Suburban 2500 4x4 with 119k on it. Yes, it was probably $2k more than a lot of the 1500s in this area, but it was also relatively low miles, and a loaded LT (minus the sunroof, which I didn't want, anyhow). I'm looking forward to reading all the build threads, though I'm not planning to do anything major to my truck (still baselining it, really). Already found Kelso and rayra's threads--you guys rock.

A couple last notes:
uno) I also looked at 4x4 2500HD crew cab PUs, but those were still almost all $10k+. I had a pretty promising lead on a 4x4 1500HD, but ended up deciding I wanted all our stuff in the climate-controlled, lockable space rather than in the truck bed. The Suburban is also a bit more maneuverable than a crew cab 1500HD or 2500HD with a 6.5' bed.

dos) Fuel costs per 1000 miles based on mpg:

mpg    gal/1000mi    fuel cost @ 3.50/gal
10    100.0    350.00
11    90.9    318.18
12    83.3    291.67
13    76.9    269.23
14    71.4    250.00
15    66.7    233.33
16    62.5    218.75
17    58.8    205.88
18    55.6    194.44
19    52.6    184.21
20    50.0    175.00

If you're buying a part-time vehicle (say 3-4000 miles/year), the difference between an 8.1 2500 (10mpg) and a thrifty 5.3 (17 mpg?) is about $450-600 in fuel. For me looking at a 6-liter (13-14mpg), I'm looking at $50-$70 difference per thousand miles compared to a 5.3, which really wasn't enough to get worked up about (it's a little more now that gas is closer to $4, but you get the idea).

Anyhow, hope that helps. Good luck in your search!

 

[mnwanders]

"Conventional" 4wd Suburbans and Tahoes have an "automatic 4wd" that functions as a kind of "poor man's AWD." I've used it very successfully here in Colorado and I like it. It's not quite as good as true full time 4wd (since it doesn't kick in until you start to spin a rear wheel) but it's much better than having to choose between 2wd and 4wd on an intermittently icy or snowy road. I believe this system was called "Autotrac."

The standard 4wd control on most GMT-800 Suburban/Tahoe and non-Denali Yukons looks like this. You can see the round button for the Auto 4wd setting. There is no "down side" to using the Auto setting except for a slight increase in "heaviness" on the front end as all the parts are turning (though the T-case is not engaged.)

View attachment 454771



There were variants of the GMT-800 Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Yukon XL that had full time 4wd + low range. I believe the option was called "Stabilitrack." You can tell a Stabilitrack vehicle because it does not have a 2wd setting or an Auto 4wd setting. The control looks like this:

View attachment 454772

The top setting is for normal highway driving with the center differential unlocked. The second button locks the center diff for "conventional" 4wd and the bottom one is for low range.

AFAIK Stabilitrack was only in the GMT-800 Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon and Yukon XL (non-Denali models, obviously.) I think Stabilitrack may have been offered on the Silverado pickups, but not sure about that. Stabilitrack was on the 1500 models only and does not seem to have been carried over to the GMT900 trucks (although these vehicles still have the Autotrack, but with a rotary knob instead of push buttons.)

So it isn't real clear to me from this post which set up is preferred. It seems like Martin is saying the stabilitrack is the better option because it is full time 4WD. Do I have that correct? Is there a MPG penalty for the stabilitrack? It seems like this might actually be a touch safer than the Auto 4WD, which maybe would be a good feature for when my wife drives. Does this option usually have the G80 locker as well, or is that something someone needs to look up the code too?

I ask because I'm actually looking at a '04 Yukon XL SLE with the Stabilitrack tomorrow. It seems like the vehicle has just about everything I want with one owner, really clean and low miles, except that it is here in the rust belt. But I might still pull the trigger anyway.

 

[Martinjmpr]

"Conventional" 4wd Suburbans and Tahoes have an "automatic 4wd" that functions as a kind of "poor man's AWD." I've used it very successfully here in Colorado and I like it. It's not quite as good as true full time 4wd (since it doesn't kick in until you start to spin a rear wheel) but it's much better than having to choose between 2wd and 4wd on an intermittently icy or snowy road. I believe this system was called "Autotrac."

The standard 4wd control on most GMT-800 Suburban/Tahoe and non-Denali Yukons looks like this. You can see the round button for the Auto 4wd setting. There is no "down side" to using the Auto setting except for a slight increase in "heaviness" on the front end as all the parts are turning (though the T-case is not engaged.)

View attachment 454771



There were variants of the GMT-800 Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Yukon XL that had full time 4wd + low range. I believe the option was called "Stabilitrack." You can tell a Stabilitrack vehicle because it does not have a 2wd setting or an Auto 4wd setting. The control looks like this:

View attachment 454772

The top setting is for normal highway driving with the center differential unlocked. The second button locks the center diff for "conventional" 4wd and the bottom one is for low range.

AFAIK Stabilitrack was only in the GMT-800 Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon and Yukon XL (non-Denali models, obviously.) I think Stabilitrack may have been offered on the Silverado pickups, but not sure about that. Stabilitrack was on the 1500 models only and does not seem to have been carried over to the GMT900 trucks (although these vehicles still have the Autotrack, but with a rotary knob instead of push buttons.)

So it isn't real clear to me from this post which set up is preferred. It seems like Martin is saying the stabilitrack is the better option because it is full time 4WD. Do I have that correct? Is there a MPG penalty for the stabilitrack? It seems like this might actually be a touch safer than the Auto 4WD, which maybe would be a good feature for when my wife drives. Does this option usually have the G80 locker as well, or is that something someone needs to look up the code too?

I ask because I'm actually looking at a '04 Yukon XL SLE with the Stabilitrack tomorrow. It seems like the vehicle has just about everything I want with one owner, really clean and low miles, except that it is here in the rust belt. But I might still pull the trigger anyway.

There isn’t really a “preferred” setup, 90+% of GMT800 trucks are Autotrac anyway. Finding a Stabliltrack 1/2 ton is like finding a Quadrasteer 3/4 ton. They’re out there but they are unicorns .


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[CrazyDrei]

There isn’t really a “preferred” setup, 90+% of GMT800 trucks are Autotrac anyway. Finding a Stabliltrack 1/2 ton is like finding a Quadrasteer 3/4 ton. They’re out there but they are unicorns .


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Martinjmpr,

I am confused about the difference between Autotrak and Stabilitrac

Here are the links to GM's definitions of both Stabilitrak and Autotrac

Stabilitrak

AutoTrac

RPO code for Autortrac is NP8 which is the electronic NVG246 transfer case. Stabilitrak RPO code is JL4. Thus stabilitrak is just a brake module just like antilock brakes. It is also seems to only be available on AWD vehicles that have open front rear and center diffs like Denali and Escalade.

So the pictures you posted earlier with the 4x4 controls eith auto button and without auto button, the auto button picture has Autotrac, the other picture does not have Autotrac or Stabilitrak and if the truck is AWD it could have Stabilitrak JL4 module. Of the 3 options the 4x4 selector for 2H, 4H and 4L is the best one because it doesn't have the "limited slip" in the transfer case like the Autotrac does.

Did I understand this correctly?

 

[Martinjmpr]

Martinjmpr,

I am confused about the difference between Autotrak and Stabilitrac

Here are the links to GM's definitions of both Stabilitrak and Autotrac

Stabilitrak

AutoTrac

RPO code for Autortrac is NP8 which is the electronic NVG246 transfer case. Stabilitrak RPO code is JL4. Thus stabilitrak is just a brake module just like antilock brakes. It is also seems to only be available on AWD vehicles that have open front rear and center diffs like Denali and Escalade.

So the pictures you posted earlier with the 4x4 controls eith auto button and without auto button, the auto button picture has Autotrac, the other picture does not have Autotrac or Stabilitrak and if the truck is AWD it could have Stabilitrak JL4 module. Of the 3 options the 4x4 selector for 2H, 4H and 4L is the best one because it doesn't have the "limited slip" in the transfer case like the Autotrac does.

Did I understand this correctly?

I think I may have been mistaken on the Stabilitrack point.

I thought I had read somewhere that when the AWD transfer cases were first offered, they were sold under the name StabiliTrack (notice that the 2nd to the last letter is a "C") and later the term Stabilitrak (no "C'") was used for the traction control. However, after much searching I have been unable to confirm that GM used the term "Stabilitrack" to refer to the full time 4wd system with the 2 speed transfer case.

The real issue is which transfer case does it have. The AWD versions had the RPO Code (on the sticker in the glove box) of NR4 which is the code for the Borg Warner 4482 transfer case. The BW4482 was a full-time 4wd system with an open center differential that could be locked with a button, and also had low range.

Most 4wd Suburban/Tahoes had the NVG 246 which is NOT a true full-time 4wd system but which DOES have an automatic 4wd system.

Here is a good description of the different types of 4wd systems:

http://z71tahoe-suburban.com/iboard/lofiversion/index.php?t25886.html

Here is the relevant part for those who don't want to scroll. It gives a good description of the two types of T-cases:

FULL-TIME 4WD

A second version of a 4WD transfer case is a full-time 4WD transfer case. This style of transfer case has an open center differential to allow for different speeds between the front and rear axles and operates similar to an AWD system. This transfer case can be locked to operate like a Part-Time 4WD transfer case (no difference between front and rear prop-shaft speeds) and/or uses a traction control system to assist in low traction situations. These transfer cases also have a selectable low range. An example of this type of 4WD is the Hummer H2. RPO code is NR4.


AUTOMATIC TRANSFER CASES

The last category is a combination of 4WD and On Demand AWD. These transfer cases have a 2HI, Auto-4WD, 4HI, 4LO and Neutral position and would fall in the general 4WD category. This transfer case has the operating characteristics of both an On Demand AWD and a Part-Time 4WD system depending on the mode selected. This transfer case uses a clutch pack to allow for a difference in speed between the front and rear axles in the Auto-4WD mode. In the 4HI or 4LO modes, there is no allowance for the difference in speed between the front and rear axles. An example of a vehicle with this would be a Tahoe or Suburban with a push-button transfer case with a 2HI, Auto-4WD, 4HI, 4LO, and Neutral positions. The RPO code for these transfer cases is NP8 (NVG 226, 236, 246, 246 EAU).

 

[Martinjmpr]

One of the nice things about modern GM vehicles is that if the RPO sticker on the glovebox is still there you can figure out exactly what is on the truck. As was stated in the quote post above, if the RPO code is NP8 then it has the very common NVG 246 transfer case. If it has the NR4 code it has the much less common BW 4482 T-case. Of course, if it has the BW4482 it will also have the 3-button switch on the dash instead of the 4 button switch.

It only has 3 buttons because there's no 2wd position, just AWD (IOW, 4wd with the center differential open), 4-hi (4wd with the center diff locked) and 4 low. Whereas the NVG-246 has 4 positions: Auto 4wd, 2hi, 4 hi and 4 low.

 

[CrazyDrei]

One of the nice things about modern GM vehicles is that if the RPO sticker on the glovebox is still there you can figure out exactly what is on the truck. As was stated in the quote post above, if the RPO code is NP8 then it has the very common NVG 246 transfer case. If it has the NR4 code it has the much less common BW 4482 T-case. Of course, if it has the BW4482 it will also have the 3-button switch on the dash instead of the 4 button switch.

It only has 3 buttons because there's no 2wd position, just AWD (IOW, 4wd with the center differential open), 4-hi (4wd with the center diff locked) and 4 low. Whereas the NVG-246 has 4 positions: Auto 4wd, 2hi, 4 hi and 4 low.

Martinjmpr,

Thank you, that link really helped identify and clarify the options. So best transfer case depends on your driving and intended use.

GM transfer cases offered:

NVG126
NVG226
NVG236
NVG246
NVG246 EAU
NVG149
NVG231
NVG233
NVG241
NVG243
NVG261
NVG263

T-150

BW4473
BW4476
BW4481
BW 4401
BW4470

That seems like an unnecessary excess. Reaching out to the Ford community, is there also such a variety of options for Fords trucks? Or is this just GMs way of slapping whatever they can get into the trucks to keep the assembly line rolling?

 

[rayra]

The latter I'm sure. GM's never had any qualms about mixmastering things. They use all of an available inventory of parts when they can and switch whenever they need to.
Had no end of annoyance with my 1985 vin code 'H' C10, all the catalog references have a short air cleaner element, mine had a 5-1/2" tall air cleaner instead. Likewise the listed trans filters are all wrong.