Rango.....1942 Willys MB

[reece146]

Does your Buick V6 have the same exhaust manifold bolt pattern as a modern Buick 3800? Jsut thinking, the modern engine was used in a lot of FWD cars and centre dump manifolds are not uncommon on FWD cars. Just an idea... if you are going to the wreckers on other business might be worth taking a look.

 

[Metcalf]

Holy cow! 10,000 views already! DDDAAANNNNGGGGG. I do like questions so please post any if you have them....

The odd-fire engines use a different manifold polt pattern and exhaust manifold port I think. I will keep it in mind though, thanks for the tip. If I ever do an odd-fire 4.1L I may be able to do something like that ( using even fire heads ).

 

[jeepdreamer]

Buick...

IIRC only some of the Odd/Even fire buicks have different heads/ports.Some have rectangular ports and some are sorta dog legged shaped. And the 3800s are generally a different animal.You could search for help over at the JeepsterCommando site or earlyCJ5.
Of course you could just get a lil nuts...
http://cosprings.craigslist.org/pts/2609403272.html
got a shoehorn?
When I was building my 67 mando I was researching trying to get throttle body injection to work. I kinda gave up when I couldn't nail down for sure if you could ever really get it to function. For me, half the benefit is ignition control (elevation changes while wheeling) and since the OF is.. well, odd... didn't seem likely.

 

[Metcalf]

I'm just going to stick with my little V6.......

TBI on an odd-fire is difficult. When I researched it the only way to make sure it worked was a crank trigger instead of a distributor trigger for the ignition pulse.

I have another interesting induction idea I am going to try I think....

 

[Metcalf]

I don't know if I am going forward or back.....

Off comes the body. Having the body rigged to lift with the harness is handy, it only takes a few minutes to pull the body off. Getting it on takes a little longer since you have to try and get the mounts lined up...

Next I slid my monster front axle under the front frame rails. It worked out pretty good that the axle would sit between the frame and the table. I don't think the axle will ever be able to compress this much, but its good to know the axle isn't going to hit anything. I think the tires would be pretty hard into the fenders, even raised ones, at this point.

I bolted up the bellhousing to the SM420 and the entire mess to the engine. Then I had to figure out a way to get everything mostly level when lifting it...

In goes the whole mess...

I messed around with everything for a bit. I don't think that the engine cradle is going to work. It gets in the way of the driveshaft at the front axle. The engine is currently offset 1" to the drivers side.

I honestly just don't know where I want the entire mess to end up. Currently the transmission is about 1"-1.5" from the bottom of the frame. I just don't think I can get everything flat to the frame? The engine is currently set fairly level but the carb pad is sloped down to the front. At this point I don't think a normal carb and air cleaner would fit under the hood.

Any ideas? What angle is good? What angle is bad? How much should I push the belly up?

 

[reece146]

What kind of rear shaft are you using or planning to run?

For the first iteration I would see where things end up with the engine as high in the engine bay as you can go without having to modify the hood.

Generally, if the drivetrain is sloped downward to the rear that would follow standard driveline practice.

Do you have any aversion to cutting the tub? Raise the top of the tunnel to get the drivetrain tucked higher if the hood clearance allows?

Have you clocked the Dana 18? That is probably the lowest point? They hang pretty low relative to the transmission from what I remember. If it can be clocked would that help?

 

[Metcalf]

What kind of rear shaft are you using or planning to run?

For the first iteration I would see where things end up with the engine as high in the engine bay as you can go without having to modify the hood.

Generally, if the drivetrain is sloped downward to the rear that would follow standard driveline practice.

Do you have any aversion to cutting the tub? Raise the top of the tunnel to get the drivetrain tucked higher if the hood clearance allows?

Have you clocked the Dana 18? That is probably the lowest point? They hang pretty low relative to the transmission from what I remember. If it can be clocked would that help?

The rear driveshaft will hopefully be a non-cv shaft, but I will have to see how the angles are when I am done. The suspension is going to be very minimally lifted. The transfer case is raised a bit so that will make angles a little worse. The rear driveshaft is pretty long for a flat fender. The SM420 with custom adapter and the D18 is pretty dang short.

The tub is getting cut, that is for sure. It was pretty butchered over its life. I would like to build an M38 style tunnel cover ( almost a removable floor )

The D18 is as tight to the transmission as I can get it...no room to clock it. The lowest point is currently the bottom of the SM420 near the drain plug. It is probably about 1/2" lower than the sump on the D18.

With how I have it currently the SM420 would clear a 1.25" drop skidplate/crossmember from the frame rail.

The engine has about 5 3/8" from the top of the valve covers to the hood. I might be able to SQUEEZE a normal air cleaner under the hood, but I doubt it.

I'm debating building in some way to adjust the motor up and down a bit.

I'm leaning toward doing a smaller belly skidplate that would go from the transmission crossmember to a crossmember under the engine mounts. It would only be about 12" wide but would only sit about 1.5" down from the frame total. Then maybe add some 'wings' to it to cover the transfer case.

 

[reece146]

What do you figure the height between the bottom of the frame rail to the ground will be once the Jeep is back on its wheels? What are you shooting for?

Intending 35" tires? Larger? (sorry of repetitive questions... local context)

 

[Metcalf]

I am going to try and run some 36" Iroks I think....so a true 36" tire.

Rough guess, the frame will probably be about 16-18" off the ground? Its a short wheelbase flat fender so I am not too worried about having a low belly. If the belly is low the best thing is to make it smooth. Belly height will change a lot with the tires aired down. To be honest I didn't really hit the belly THAT much before with the 32s and almost no lift. With the belly only about 1.5" below the frame and a 36" tire along with a touch more lift it should have a really good amount of clearance for an 86" wheelbase.

 

[reece146]

Yeah, I wouldn't get too excited about having the belly perfectly flat. If it is designed well it won't really matter.

Don't forget to leave some space for when the drivetrain bucks/twists around though. I'm thinking around the rear output for the transfer case in particular.

 

[Metcalf]

Yup, will do. I plan on running the factory style torque mount also to help with that problem.

Having the belly nice and flat does help, especially with a low belly height. I just don't think I can do that without dropping the frame rail height or going totally crazy raising the powertrain up.

I was thinking a skidplate like this from just ahead of the bellhousing bolted to the motor mount cradle and then to the transmission crossmember would be nice.

I will still be tucking everything else I can above the frame rails.....exhaust, fuel lines, brake lines, etc. I will probably add a 'wing' on the passenger side to cover the bottom of the transfer case and the outputs.

 

[jeepdreamer]

I've always kinda wondered about weight and CG (Center of Gravity) trade offs. Obviously keeping the CG low helps with stability but getting bigger tires on to gain clearance makes that hard. Which is partially why I was curious when you started the body mounts. Seems like a small body lift would be raising the sheet metal to allow tire clearance while keeping most of the wheight (Frame, drivetrain, etc) at a reasonable low point. Added advantage is it frees up a little more wiggle room for tucking the drivetrain up. I know your not interested in doing that but it is always an option.

 

[Metcalf]

I've always kinda wondered about weight and CG (Center of Gravity) trade offs. Obviously keeping the CG low helps with stability but getting bigger tires on to gain clearance makes that hard. Which is partially why I was curious when you started the body mounts. Seems like a small body lift would be raising the sheet metal to allow tire clearance while keeping most of the wheight (Frame, drivetrain, etc) at a reasonable low point. Added advantage is it frees up a little more wiggle room for tucking the drivetrain up. I know your not interested in doing that but it is always an option.

The old Willys tubs are designed to run on the body. The hat channels spread out the load to the top of the frame. There are even some mounts that are on the side of the frame for the fenders and front part of the tub near the cowl. When you body lift a willys tub and you don't have this support the tub starts to mushroom around the frame. You can avoid this with added supports but I just don't think its the same.

It is all a trade off....generally lower is better

It might seem like I am moving things around a bunch, but in reality I only raised the powertrain 2-3" from where it was at most. There is a lot of physical 'feel' to vehicle dynamics also. Stuff like lowering the seat can make the vehicle feel more stable because you center of gravity ( belly button roughly ) is closer or more in plane with the center of gravity ( or maybe roll axis ) of the vehicle.

I'm only lifting the suspension 1" over stock ( probably more like 2" from saggy old springs in front ). The body isn't that light weight. It probably weighs more than the frame. You have to remember that this is a pretty dang small vehicle to begin with. The overall height when this thing is finished should only be about 5'5"-5'8" or so at trail pressure. Instead of a body lift to help clear tires I am going to only lift the parts of the body I NEED to clear the tires by doing the front fender lift and tubbing out the rear. If I where to do a body lift I also raise the floor, steering, seat position, etc.

I started on the frame by building the body mounts so I have I known location of the body. Without that there is just too much shifting. I knew where I wanted the axles to end up relative to the body. The entire frame was built around this from the beginning. For me, its like chess, I have to plan three steps ahead. The problem being is that now I am on the final step and need to make a fairly big call on the powertrain placement. ACK! I'm sure it will turn out....

 

[Metcalf]

I played with things tonight a bit. I think I have the powertrain in a position that should work. No matter how you configure things there are always going to be trade offs.....clearance, pinion angles, hood clearance, front axle clearance, tub clearance, etc.

Once big problem I was having previously was that the front driveshaft was hitting the starter nose pocket on the bellhousing. The way things are set currently the front driveshaft will clear on max compression just barely. I could drop transfer case, but I would like to preserve as much belly clearance as possible.

There isn't a ton of room for the driveshaft, and I have to run a narrow one, but the front axle shouldn't really come this height in the frame. I have a feeling the tires would be HARD into the fenders at this point with the final setup I have in mind. It is nice to know I can run the axle into the frame just before things start to get friendly....that should be a good bumpstop:grinpimp:

The bellhousing is just a skiff higher than the bottom of the frame rails. With a skidplate over it from the engine mount crossmember to the transmission crossmember it should be out of the way plenty.

The powertrain is offset 1 1/8" to the drivers side. This is fairly close to 'factory' for the straight rail early CJ5 at least. This should give just enough room to have an exhaust tube down the passenger side of the frame. You can also see the start of a mock up transmission crossmember using 1x2 heavy wall tubing. There is JUST enough room I think to squeeze a small crossmember in that location. Its basically just under the transfer case adapter under the front output on the transfer case.

I am going to try and use a standard GM transmission mount just behind the transfer case adapter tucked under the transfer case. Its going to be TIGHT but I think I can fit one. I can always replace the rubber unit with a poly unit if I want to. I will also be adding a mount for the torque bushing on the front output of the transfer case onto the same crossmember.

I made up some simple motor mounts also. I might raise the engine up another 1/4" to account for the compression of the rubber mounts, or I might just say good enough and tack weld them in tomorrow. I designed the mounts and pre-drilled some holes so that I can mount a seperate crossmember to run side to side under the oil pan. This will help tie the mounts together and make the frame stronger and it will also provide a forward attachment point for a narrow 10" wide skidplate that will run from in front of the oil pan to the transfer case. I will probably do a skidplate like that instead of a full belly skidplate.

One downside to this powertrain location is that the old air cleaner and carb setup would stick through the hood about 1 1/4". I will need to look into some alternative induction ideas.....

The top of the transmission case ( and just about the top of the Dana 18 ) will sit just about 5" above the flat part of the floor. The tunnel will not be THAT big I don't think. The existing tunnel is about 2-3" at the rear section. The part of the tunnel that needs to over the shifter housing will have to be a bit taller, but again....not THAT bad. The shifter clearance with the dash could get interesting......

The top of the 1x2 tubing in this pic simulates the level of the flat floor. The rear output will JUST clear the bottom of the floor. I will probably have to make a little pocket area over. Maybe make a little removeable panel for changing the u-joint. I need to look into making a disc e-brake for the D18 too.

 

[reece146]

Once big problem I was having previously was that the front driveshaft was hitting the starter nose pocket on the bellhousing. The way things are set currently the front driveshaft will clear on max compression just barely. I could drop transfer case, but I would like to preserve as much belly clearance as possible.

There isn't a ton of room for the driveshaft, and I have to run a narrow one, but the front axle shouldn't really come this height in the frame. I have a feeling the tires would be HARD into the fenders at this point with the final setup I have in mind. It is nice to know I can run the axle into the frame just before things start to get friendly....that should be a good bumpstop:grinpimp:

I'd like to see a touch more clearance around that shaft but I'd be inclined to burn the mounts in as depicted and then do some mild bump stopping for the axle.

The bellhousing is just a skiff higher than the bottom of the frame rails. With a skidplate over it from the engine mount crossmember to the transmission crossmember it should be out of the way plenty.

Don't forget to accommodate rocking motion side-to-side of the drivetrain as well as vertical bucking.

I hate it when metal hits metal in that manner when a machine is under load. "Was that a new noise?" "What's that noise?" "What's going on?"

One downside to this powertrain location is that the old air cleaner and carb setup would stick through the hood about 1 1/4". I will need to look into some alternative induction ideas.....

I think you need to investigate this before going any further. It would be a real shame to have to cut the hood for an air cleaner or whatever. Flatties look silly with stuff sticking out of the hood IMO.

The top of the transmission case ( and just about the top of the Dana 18 ) will sit just about 5" above the flat part of the floor. The tunnel will not be THAT big I don't think. The existing tunnel is about 2-3" at the rear section. The part of the tunnel that needs to over the shifter housing will have to be a bit taller, but again....not THAT bad. The shifter clearance with the dash could get interesting......

Sounds decent - the unfamiliar would never notice.

The top of the 1x2 tubing in this pic simulates the level of the flat floor. The rear output will JUST clear the bottom of the floor. I will probably have to make a little pocket area over. Maybe make a little removeable panel for changing the u-joint. I need to look into making a disc e-brake for the D18 too.

I'd advise keeping the drum e-brake if you can swing it. Drums work much better as a parking brake than a disk. I have a pair of Wilwood spot calipers on one of my Jeep's rear axle and I can never get them to clamp that well.