School me on home-defense (gun related).

[dieselcruiserhead]

Nice one Jnich77...

I'm now wondering how many people have had their house burglarized? I grew up in New Rochelle New York just 3 blocks from the police station and recall I we were burglarized three times. The third time I came home from school and found the burglar (who fled) and the cops actually found him, hiding in a car a few blocks away in only about 20 minutes. I fingered the guy and they put him away (and it turned out to be the brother in law of my neighbor across the street so probably even some sort of inside job). This, I would say, is probably representative of probably 90 or 95% of situations.

Just a couple years ago my dad also had his home cleaned out as well (in upstate New York, super rural, super safe, seldom locked as well). My dad also owns guns too and I have to say the only time he actually ever carried it was mostly in rural rural Arizona where he was worried about crooked cops in the late 70s/early 80s, a tiny little 9mm.

Now that I think about it when I was a kid in Brazil we had our house broken in as well, except this time it was at night and we were all asleep. This time they had a gun, my mom (who is one tough-*** chick) managed to somehow get the burglar's arm between a door and the jamb with the gun and his hand only sticking through and he fired 2 or 3 shots and I was in the room (and everyone was OK) and they fled as well.

And finally as well in a burglary gone wrong in the Amazon just a couple years ago I lost one of my favorite teachers of all time...

I wanted to point out, again, the last thing that crosses my mind personally would be to keep a loaded weapon first again because of the consequences, as mentioned. First would be... Lights, locking the door, maybe a dog. To me, a gun (and a loaded gun) is the absolutely last resort.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Andre read my post and my added edit, brings things close to home for me. I think its fair to say none of us would condone nor participate in shooting over a stereo or TV.

I don't care what there intentions are, breaking into my house is more than enough reason for make sure they leave in a body bag.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

I wanted to point out, again, the last thing that crosses my mind personally would be to keep a loaded weapon first again because of the consequences, as mentioned. First would be... Lights, locking the door, maybe a dog. To me, a gun (and a loaded gun) is the absolutely last resort.

I agree.. but I am more than willing to bypass everything else and jump to the last resort. after being in combat I know first hand that two things will get you killed in a heart beat : Hesitation and being unprepared. I refuse to fall victim to either.

as for my earlier comment, wasn't trying to be rude.. just making an observation.

 

[Hltoppr]

Alright gents, after some mod review, this thread is back up. Let's try to keep the thread on track with substance....not tough guy chest beating.

-H-

 

[Every Miles A Memory]

education education education

The best gun safety is education.
I don't care if a person takes every precation they can. There are stories of someone be shot with a firearm that was locked up and safe.
Teach your children that firearms are not toys. Don't make them a taboo thing. This only increases the curiousity and leads to problems as kids will be kids.


education education education

My thoughts exactly!! I taught our daughter from a very young age how to use and clean/take apart/and shoot every gun we owned.

This taught her that they were tools, NOT toys. She never was interested in playing with them, and knew they were tools for when we went to the range.

Education, Education, Education. Until your new arrival is old enough to learn, keep it in a combo safe under the bed like the others have mentioned

 

[SunTzuNephew]

Never store pistol/rifle magazines loaded for long periods of time. It degrades the springs and they will FAIL you when you need them.

Revolvers are best for long term loaded storage.

.02

I have left magazines (pistol and rifle) loaded for years and years without problems. In fact I found (in 2005) some AR-15 mags that I had loaded in 1997 or 1998 and misplaced....when I discovered them I took them to the range and every round fired (it was PMC 55 gr, btw).

Properly designed magazines (which means most anything modern) will not be damaged by leaving them loaded. In fact it is the cycling that causes springs to deteriorate, not compression.

 

[BIGdaddy]

Oh, home-defense thread...how I've missed you!!!

thanks, mods. Its, at heart, a good discussion. Glad you agree.

-B

 

[SunTzuNephew]

With a load of buckshot, the shotgun has much better stopping power than the 357. But... you will be showing your hand. The major downside is its size.

Advantage of a handgun is being able to conceal it, having it on your person when you answer the door.

A biometric handgun safe will allow you to keep it loaded and ready, yet safe from little hands.

You still have to aim shotguns. At typical in-house ranges the pattern doesn't hardly open up at all (2-3 inches at 10', at best. Their length makes them unwieldy in close quarters (like a house). In fact, an aggressor can grab the barrel out of your hands as it precedes you out a doorway...

For some real-world experimentation check out http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

 

[SunTzuNephew]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

If they're in my home after dark without my invite, you're right...they're an intruder, and my reasonable expectation is that they are there to do my family or me bodily harm. They chose the field, I choose the weapons. It's not my fault if they choose poorly.

And in many states (including Utah, I believe) you don't have to be shot at first in your own home. In my state I certainly don't have to be.

 

[Dave Bennett]

Although it's somewhat of a peripheral issue to the original post, I feel I need to dispel the myth that a magazine left constantly loaded is subject to spring fatigue and subsequent failure-to-feed malfunctions. It's been proven metallurgically that no such fatigue occurs, at least in any spring that's not some Afghan-village-gunsmith pot metal. It's perfectly safe to leave magazines loaded.

If anything, constantly emptying and reloading magazines is more likely to cause spring fatigue, but even that is highly unlikely in a decent-quality magazine, as long as the compressed spring does not exceed its yield point, where plastic deformation occurs and atomic bonds start breaking.

I had an actual page of metallurgist argot somewhere showing this with molecular-level explanations, but I can't find it at the moment.

Back to our original program.

My comment was based on combat experience in Iraq where M9 pistol (Beretta 92F) mags would invariably become tired resulting in the rounds just falling out onto the ground when the mag was removed for cleaning... didn't instill much confidence in this particular sidearm for me. Our mags were more than a bit worn out by the time we reached Baghdad

I've had many an old timer tell me the same thing about magazine springs in general so for long term storage mine are kept empty.

YMMV

 

[SunTzuNephew]

Sorry guys not to stir the pot here. I'm just saying yes I would feel guilty if I killed someone if they were stealing a stereo or toaster or microwave or shoot, even my car. These are just simple material items. Again I have owned guns and I like them and I very much support the 2nd Amendment. I more than recognize and respect the right for a concealed weapons permit as well.

But the last thing that crosses my mind is to have that weapon loaded in the house in case of a burglar. I look at the odds of the scenario you guys are describing (where the burglar actually is an intimate thread) as worse than getting stuck by lightning, which is probably not too far off. Even if there were a burglar, while it would "feel cool" to chase that guy off, what if he had a gun and I were really just putting myself in danger, in addition to the dangers of having a loaded weapon in the house. I do think think this is a practical, safe, and more than reasonable approach.

IIRC, something like 50 people are struck by lightning each year (http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm). According to the justice department the number of victims of violent crime is something around 1.3 million. So the numbers favor the armed law-abiding citizen.

 

[SunTzuNephew]

With Dan's attitude at times I'm surprised he didn't take the guy out and put him in a hole in the west desert.

Well, we do have 10+ pages of posts about shovels....

My game plan is to keep the outside of my house as crappy looking as possible while my neighbors all have nice homes. Who's going to break into the guy's house that doesn't have two pennies to rub together.:victory:

My neighbor once criticized my firearms...I offered to put up a sign on my lawn directing criminals to his unarmed home...

He moved.

 

[Dave Bennett]

My neighbor once criticized my firearms...I offered to put up a sign on my lawn directing criminals to his unarmed home...

He moved.

:elkgrin:

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Dave, I totally respect your personal experience. Nevertheless, investigation into the physics of spring steel will show you that a properly-made magazine spring will not fatigue under constant compression if it's within its designed measurements.

If your Beretta springs were failing, they were badly made springs and would have failed anyway - in fact, probably sooner had they been constantly loaded and unloaded. Such springs should be replaced whether or not you unload them for long-term storage. I'm aware of a failure (fracturing) issue with Beretta 92 slides some years back. That didn't prove that open-slide semi-auto designs are prone to fracturing; it just proved Beretta made some bad slides. And that our military needs a new sidearm . . .

I've heard just as many old-timer's tales of 1911s left loaded for 50 years, that subsequently functioned perfectly. But even those are just anecdotes; it's the physics that tell the truth.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

My comment was based on combat experience in Iraq where M9 pistol (Beretta 92F) mags would invariably become tired resulting in the rounds just falling out onto the ground when the mag was removed for cleaning... didn't instill much confidence in this particular sidearm for me. Our mags were more than a bit worn out by the time we reached Baghdad

I've had many an old timer tell me the same thing about magazine springs in general so for long term storage mine are kept empty.

YMMV

The problem is the magazines you were using were probably as old as the M9. I carried one for 5 years as an MP and our unit armor would replace the springs every now and then.. we never once had a problem.