TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

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10. Asking some questions about MAN's presence in Latin America


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Even where MAN is a market leader, like Latin America, one will want to ask questions.

For instance, although MAN is the market leader in Latin America, how many MAN trucks should we guess are actually driving around on Latin American roads? Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Try 36,157 licensed units actually on the roads. MAN buses are not the market leader, but they are second, so how many of them should we think there are? Try just 6,480 licensed units actually driving on the roads. See http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...ader-for-the-twelfth-year-running-183744.html , and http://www.corporate.man.eu/man/med.../14_MAN_Magazin_Bus_01_2015_International.pdf :







Furthermore, although MAN leads overall in trucks in Brazil, that's only because it has the greatest market-share in semi-heavy trucks. In truly heavy-duty trucks, Volvo, Scania, and Mercedes all have bigger market-share than MAN:







Now although MAN is comparatively large overall in Latin America, Latin America still only counts for about 10 % of MAN's global sales volume -- see http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...ropean-commercial-vehicles-market-225664.html and see the excellent PDF that provides a corporate overview at http://www.man.eu/man/media/en/cont...n_blick/DE_Unternehmenspraesentation_2013.pdf . MAN produced and sold 74,680 trucks in 2012, and 5,286 buses:







In other word's, MAN's global production in just one year is roughly double the total number of MAN trucks currently driving on roads in Latin America. And MAN's global production of buses in one year roughly equals the total number of MAN buses driving on Latin-American roads.

What's going on here? The answer is simple: Latin America's economy is not even remotely the same size as Europe's or North America's, and so the stock of trucks both light and heavy in Latin America is a fraction of the size of the stocks in North America and Europe:






So even in Latin America, where MAN is a market leader, it may still prove difficult at times to get proper service for one's MAN diesel engine. Indeed, given the market-share pie-chart for Brazil shown just above, in Brazil specifically one might be better off with a Mercedes, Scania, or Volvo truck.

Given facts like these, how easy in practice would it be to find proper service for one's MAN diesel truck in one of Brazil's more remote cities? Let alone a small city in Peru, Chile, or Ecuador, distant from MAN's major manufacturing operations in Brazil and Mexico?:







It certainly won't be anything at all like finding service for one's MAN truck in Europe. And even further afield, how easy in practice would it be to find service for one's MAN diesel truck in the United States, Russia, China, or India?

I couldn't find a map of MAN's service network worldwide, but no doubt it's reasonably good in some places. But is it good everywhere? Would it be good in China, or southeast Asia? Is any truck-manufacturing company's service network yet truly "global" enough, that they could guarantee that suitable service will exist within less than 500 km just about anywhere in the world? It's a genuine question, and I am not certain of the answer. But it's a question worth asking, in response to those who want to strongly promote the idea of the superior "serviceability" of a contemporary ICE, packed with electronics.


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11. Plug-and-play diesel generator swapping


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Now this may sound like a crazy proposal, but hey, I am not an automotive engineer, nor am I someone who has been forced by life-habit to think "conservatively" or "cautiously". What I like about the two-generator scenario, with the generators literally sitting on slide-out trays, is that this might give the TerraLiner the ability to just "plug-and-play". Say one generator goes down. The TerraLiner calls the manufacturer, which then sends a replacement generator by air-freight to a location within 1000 km of the TerraLiner. At that location the TerraLiner finds a mechanic who only needs the limited expertise required to swap generators. The mechanic packs up the failed generator in shipping crate, sends it back to the manufacturer, and the TerraLiner is off and running again.

This may seem like an expensive way of doing things, but would it be? Would it really? The cost of air-freight has dropped dramatically in recent years, and even the heaviest 200 KW diesel generator would still probably weigh less than 500 kg. Much better to have the generator looked at by a specialist at the company that made it, than have someone tinker around with it in the middle of nowhere. And that way the TerraLiner will have no down-time.

Further, if the second, super-high-power supplementary generator were a Boeing Dreamliner APS 5000 APU, getting that serviced may be simply a matter of pulling up to just about any airport that handles large passenger jets -- see post #2101 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-TerraLiner-12-m-Globally-Mobile-Beach-House-Class-A-Crossover-w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1973658#post1973658 . Unlike the world of trucks, the world of passenger jets is a duopoly, with just two players running neck-and-neck in every country worldwide: Boeing and Airbus. So getting an APU 5000 serviced, fixed, or replaced almost anywhere in the world may actually be easier than getting the TerraLiner's primary generator serviced, fixed, or replaced. No truly global truck manufacturer, truck type, or truck engine exists; but there is no question whatsoever that truly global jet aircraft manufacturers, aircraft, and aircraft APUs exist.

These are just crazy thoughts that I wanted to throw into the mix, but hey, I am a designer, and that's my job description....


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12. Who knows why thousands of wealthy retired couples want to live full-time in motorhomes? But the fact is, they do.


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Why should such people use a vehicle where they have to think regularily about discharging black and grey water tanks, getting fresh water, filling up fuel tanks, maintenance and finding a save parking spot for over-night, after being exhausted by driving this over-sized vehicle combination on secondary roads?

As for your last point, you could ask exactly the same questions about retired owners of 45-foot Class-A motorhomes in the United States. There really do exist people in the United States who will pay 1.5 million for a motorhome, behind which they will tow a runabout car (usually a Jeep), and who will worry daily about blackwater and greywater tanks, filling up fuel tanks, maintenance, and the drive to the next RV park. Literally thousands of retired Americans are now living this lifestyle, and loving it. Who can explain it? But it's a sociological fact nonetheless.

The only innovative element that I am introducing, is that I am trying to figure out how to successfully transpose this sort of Class-A motorhoming lifestyle to a global level, taking into account factors like the absence of a global infrastructure of RV parks with hookups and shore power; or higher crime rates in some countries; or rougher, gravel-only main highways in some places; or lack of non-polluted groundwater because of massive levels of open defecation in places like India; or high humidity but no rainfall in coastal fog deserts, and so on. Or challenging climatic conditions, like lower pressure at high altitudes in the Himalayas, or Heat Indexes above 110.

If such challenges could be solved, then yes, it is a basic premise of this thread that if a vehicle like the TerraLiner existed, then a small but not insignificant number of people would want to buy one. They really would want to take the American "Class A" full-timing motorhome lifestyle global. Iain ball-parked the potential market demand at roughly 15 units per year.

Note that American premium luxury motorhome manufacturers like Liberty, Marathon, Featherlite, etc. don't have production volumes much larger than this. And yet they have eminently viable business models. egn, the idea here is dead simple: a Class A motorhome that can truly travel the world, and that won't be "stuck" traveling just North America and Canada. North American Class-A motorhomes are "stuck" sojourning in North America because that's all they were designed to do. I can't help but wonder how many owners of such motorhomes have asked themselves, "Why don't there exist large, Class-A motorhomes packed with all the standard amenities and luxuries, but motorhomes that have drive-trains and tires that might allow them to travel well beyond Canada and the United States?" It's a natural question to ask, and the design exercise that we've been engaged in here in this thread is a natural enough consequence of the question....

As for finishing my project this coming year? Don't count on it. Do you know the average time it takes for a major car company to shepherd a new model from initial concept through to final production? Even with hundreds of designers and engineers all working together? The answer is 4 years: it takes 4 years to bring a completely new car to production. And that's just a car.....

In closing, I wish you a very happy Chistmas, too!!

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[egn]

I never wrote that air-conditioning is useless, but I question your 100 kWh/day figure for a mobile vehicle, and the need to run a high-power generator for hours in an environment, where other people want to enjoy their live.

You should also think about whether the use of the main propulsion engines fall under the anti-idling laws, that apply in a lot of countries.

In your argument pro massive air conditioning you concentrate on health benefits, but you are missing all the negative consequence on health through air-condition, that were found in a numerous number of studies.

So using air-conditioning is in the final consequence is only a comfort feature, that someone needs others don't.

Now the question is how much power and energy is necessary to achieve a temperature of 20-25° C and a humidity of about 50 % within a vehicle, at a outside temperature of 40+ ° C.

This vastly depends on how good the vehicle is isolated against heat and radiation. If it is build like a green house with vast glass areas , the necessary cooling power will be huge. If it is build like traditional buildings in hot locations, with no air-condition available, the necessary power and energy will be much less.

It looks to be that your design goes more into the direction of a green house with large glass areas, of course to give the user a great view onto the scenery out-side. This looks great in the first view, but it may have the consequence that people traveling are living most of the time isolated in their vehicles, and will miss the contact to the outside. This is a personal thing, of course.

But coming back to air-condition, the question is, whether a camper can be designed to use much less power and energy for air-conditioning, or better no power most of the time.

Currently it looks to me that you want to go conventional way and build a greenhouse that is then cooled and heated brute-force by whatever power and energy necessary. This doesn't looks like a good solution to me.

The key is to have highly isolated walls and protect the room inside from as much direct and indirect solar insulation as possible. The consequence is that the air temperature inside is not much higher than air temperature in shade outside. This also helps to reduce energy demand in cold climates.

The next step is to look for energy efficient air-condition devices. Most air-condition appliances used in cars and campers are not very efficient, because they are designed for an environment where plenty of energy is available, either during driving from the engine, or when standing from the wall-socket at the campground. When boondocking this means running a high rated generator in order to have the starting power and the amount of energy available. For TerraLiner with a large battery can provide starting power, but the energy has to come from a generator or the main engine of the serial hybrid burning fuel.

If a more efficient inverter air-condition unit is used, this could save half the power and energy. And if the unit also can be used to as heat pump, then this works also in colder climates as mostly silent heater.

I recommend to review your design regarding efficient energy use.

Now most owners of American Class A luxury coaches don't leave the United States precisely because their vehicles are not designed to do so.

I disagree, with you here, because such coaches can be used in most 1. and 2. world countries without any problem. The roads are as good as in the states, probably sometimes much better. This will be true also in most countries that are considered safe.

The main issue you will get with the coaches is their size, but here the TerraLiner is no real improvement, with the trailer it is the contrary. The only parking space they could take is the space for commercial coaches, but they are not allowed to use them. Most camp grounds are to small to cover a vehicle of this size. They have already problems with BT because of size and weight. You finally will end on the road-side most of the time, which is not a place that is very enjoyable.

So the TerraLiner will be a vehicle that is usable mostly in areas with a low density of population.

But aren't this areas mostly in countries that aren't that save and wouldn't be traveled by Americans?

I have been deliberately designing on the assumption that such an infrastructure does not exist, and that the TerraLiner will need to be designed for maximal water, power, and sewage autonomy so that it can seek out viable alternatives, like glamping farmer's fields where no "hook ups" and no "shore power" will be available.

Clamping on farmer's field is an illusion. During summer the field is used for growing and is not available for use. Farmers try everything to reduce pressure on soil and will just not allow that you enter the field. And when it starts raining, even TerraLiner will be able to leave the sport, it will also leave behind large damage, which has to be repaired in some way.

I think you completely missed the point behind the "mostly silent" camping concept.

I didn't miss the point, but I question it, because in my experience other people around such a vehicle will not even accept that the engine runs a few minutes, if they don't see a reason for it. Maybe that most people in the States have already lost, or never had the sensitivity regarding useless noise and air pollution, but many people certainly have this sensitivity, and may enforce this one way or the other.

Sorry, but here collide two different camp philosophies against each other:
Your general philosophy seems to be that at a camp spot, anyone can make any noise and air-pollution just to achieve any comfort he wishes. Your glampers are sitting the whole day in their air-conditioned off-road RV, like fish in an aquarium. They cannot live without air-condition anymore, because the large temperature difference at changing from inside to outside and back, makes them sick.

Ours and a lot of other peoples I know, general philosophy is that we avoid any negative impact at a camp spot, even we may lose some comfort. We are outside the vehicle most of the time and make social contacts to others on the camp ground and around, instead of sitting isolated in the vehicle.

Regarding stealth and unobtrusiveness, this may be true when driving, but here you will have the lowest problems, because you move. The problems may arise when TerraLiner is in "living-mode". It will then show all the luxury build-in and may cause mixed reactions depending on the environment.

With the information currently available, even we would be able to spend the money, we would decide against such a large vehicle combination. With the experience of 8 years traveling about 70.000 km and boon-docking most of the time in Europe, Russia and Turkey, BT with a size 9,3m x 2,5m x 4 m is still a good compromise for us. With the TerraLiner we would have missed a lot of great camp spots, because of total size. We wouldn't have driven into numerous very tight roads for many km to great camp spots. We had a lot of situations were we were happy to be able to turn around or go backwards a few km, without much trouble.

Anyway, it is your project and you decide how the result will looks like.

All the best,
Emil

 

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Hi egn,

Interesting points, which I will respond to in sequence.


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1. 100 KW per day was only an "upper bound" figure


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If you read the posts about Air-Conditioning (posts #2120 to #2124, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1973835#post1973835 to http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1974106#post1974106 ), you'll see that I guesstimated this as the most extreme usage in very challenging climates, i.e. when the Heat Index outside hovers between 110 to 120 degrees Fahrenheit. But 70 KW was much less of a guesstimate. If you go to the technomadia webpage, for instance, you'll see that they ran a test, and when they kept the two A/C units in their Class A motorhome running 100 % for 24 hours, they consumed 77 KW in total -- see http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/the-almost-fantasy-of-solar-powered-rv-air-conditioning/ . For them 77 KW was also an upper-bound figure, but then their motorhome is relatively old, and does not have slide-outs or pop-ups, i.e. anything that might increase both the interior volume and the surface area of the shell.

In those posts about Air-Conditioning I investigated a whole range of analogies to arrive at the figures that I did, providing lots of arguments and lots of links. The best figure to have would be a clear statement of the KW consumption for a Newell, Liberty, or Millennium motorhome, i.e. a premium-luxury motorhome with 60,000 BTU Air-Conditioning, for one day camped during the height of summer in Lousiana, when the Heat Index is 110. But I could not find such a figure on the Internet, so I had to guess using various kinds of analogies. If anyone ever comes across such a figure for a Newell, Liberty, Millennium, Marathon, Featherlite, etc., please post!!

Now egn, if you come across any hard alternative information, weblinks, etc. suggesting that the upper-bound limit should more like 30 KW per day, even in an extreme scenario, then by all means please pass along the information!! I just haven't come across any information to that effect. All the information that I've seen points to a much higher figure as an upper bound.

Remember, I am not saying that the TerraLiner will consume 100 KW per day "on average". That would be silly. Rather, I am saying that the TerraLiner needs to be designed so that if it finds itself in a very challenging, extreme climate situation, then it might indeed consume 100 KW per day. The technomadia motorhome seems designed to consume 77 KW per day in an extreme scenario, so that's why 100 KW struck me as reasonable, because the internal volume and external surface area of the TerraLiner will be bigger, once expanded to its full size. As for an "average" per-day figure for the TerraLiner, that would probably be more in 20 - 30 KW range, because 30 KW per day is the amount of electricity that an average American residential household consumes per annum.

I didn't just pull my figures out of a hat. I really tried to research all of this to the best of my ability, short of calling up Newell or Liberty, and asking them directly how many KW per day their customers use on average, and how much they use on extreme days in the deep South during the summer.


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2. The United States versus Europe: A Deep Cultural Divide when it comes to Air-Conditioning


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Yes, there are lots of Germans who are "against" Air-Conditioning. But they live in Germany, they do not live in Singapore, Florida, or Brazil. We may have to simply accept that the topic of Air-Conditioining is a major "cultural divide" that separates North Americans from Europeans. Clearly, on this topic I am a fully paid up North American. For some interesting articles that explore this cultural dividing line, see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rica-your-love-of-air-conditioning-is-stupid/ , http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...of-europe-still-cool-toward-air-conditioning/ , http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article30613365.html , https://www.quora.com/Why-do-German...lectricity-compared-to-those-of-North-America , http://energytransition.de/2015/05/german-power-bills-low-compared-to-us/ , and http://www.economist.com/news/inter...ces-bearablebut-worryingly-high-cost-no-sweat .

But I would argue that the dividing line is also geographic. Europe simply does not have places that are as hot as Florida, Louisiana, or Texas during the summer. Yes, Europe has Mediterranean climates in Portugal, southern Spain and France, coastal and southern Italy, and Greece. But a Mediterranean climate is not a tropical climate, of the kind one experiences in south Florida. Nor is a Mediterranean climate a sub-tropical climate, of the kind one experiences in northern Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, and coastal Texas. Think of it this way: it's possible to swim in the Atlantic ocean in Miami during January, even though the water is a bit cool. But it is not possible to swim in the Mediterranean even in Sicily in January. In the northern Mediterranean, "the tourist season" runs from mid-June to the first week in September, when the water is warm enough to swim, and the air hot enough to lounge around in a bathing suit. Whereas in Miami the season is all year round. The only reason why the preferred season in Miami is the winter, is because in the summer Miami actually gets too hot, and very humid.

Or think of it this way: coconut palms grow in south Florida. Whereas coconut palms do not and cannot grow anywhere in the Mediterranean.

Just consider: most economists think that the economic boom in the southern United States since the second world war -- and the continuing drift of America's population-centre both westwards and southwards -- is a direct consequence of the post-war spread of Air-Conditioning:






Miami, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta: these American cities are all direct products of Air-Conditioning. The last video makes this abundantly clear.

So on my own view, there is something "objective" about the need for Air-Conditioning in certain climates. It is not merely a matter of personal preference, and Europeans are not necessarily culturally "superior" because they think they can do without Air-Conditioning. In America's deep South, for instance, Air-Conditioning was first installed not in homes, but rather, in textile mills and tobacco factories, because Air-Conditioning massively improved worker productivity and accuracy. When businessmen think that they have to install Air-Conditioining so that their workers perform much better, they are not doing so out of the goodness of their hearts. Rather, it's a matter of objective dollars and cents, and making a profit. It's in this sense that Air-Conditioning is a very "objective" need in America's deep South.

Once more, based on my talks with and experiences of living with German relatives, my sense is that most Germans have no feeling whatsoever for any of this, because they live in a country that is relatively cool, where the seasonal swings in temperature are relatively moderate. Germany does not get as cold as New England in the winter, and it also does not get as hot as Alabama or Texas in the summer. You may describe Air-Conditioning as "optional", egn, but my settled view is that it is anything but, for most people, in climates that are not as wonderfully temperate and moderate as Germany's. Air-Conditioning is not just a "comfort" feature, and it is not just a luxury.

But given that Germans are so against Air-Conditioning, this is probably a point regarding which you and I will simply have to agree to disagree. It's a deep cultural dividing line, and North Americans see things very differently than northern Europeans, Germans especially.


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3. Air-Conditioning and an "Outdoorsy" Lifestyle are Completely Compatible


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As for "interactivity", I am deliberately designing the TerraLiner to be massively interactive with the outside. Sure, I want there to be lots of glass, just like a skoolie-bus conversion, so that when the owners are inside, they can still see outside. I very strongly dislike the claustrophobic feeling of most expedition campers that have tiny windows.

But in addition, I am designing the TerraLiner with large drop-down decks. Rob Grey's Wothahellizat, for instance, strikes me as the most outside-interactive motorhome ever built, because it has such a huge rear porch, where people can come and visit. I stated at the very beginning of the thread that the TerraLiner's having big porch areas would be very important, precisely because I don't want the TerraLiner to be the hermetically sealed capsule that most motorhomes are by default. Most motorhomes have just one entrance up front, it's just a tiny door that one person can go through, and that's it. If you examine again everything that I've written on this topic, and all the images that I have shown which indicated where I want to go in terms of TerraLiner design, you'll see that I have always been intensely conscious of designing the TerraLiner for maximum outside interactivity.

Perhaps because I've spent so much time in Florida, I simply do not accept the idea that constantly transitioning from hot outside to cool inside makes one sick. That's literally what I did every day, day-in day-out, when I spent vacations in Florida. In the summer I would just wear a bathing suit all day, nothing more, and I would be constantly moving from cool air inside an Air-conditioned house, to hot air outside where I would bicycle; take the boat out for fishing, waterskiing, windsurfing, and scuba-diving; check out the girls at the hotel's pool on the island, and so on. egn, literally millions of Americans do exactly the same thing in America's deep south, or during the summer months in America's north. They constantly move from Air-Conditioined interiors that are cool, to outsides that are hot. Yes, I know that Europeans -- Germans especially -- have a deeply held belief that this sort of lifestyle is "un-natural" and "un-healthy". But just because most Germans believe something, does not necessarily make it true. And in tropical countries that are becoming rich, local people are "voting" with their money to follow the American example, not the German one. In rich tropical and sub-tropical cities like Hong Kong and Singapore, Air-Conditioning is strongly preferred.

I also hear that in Australia, Air-Conditioning has become very popular too, almost as popular as it is in the United States. But nobody would ever accuse Australians of being an "indoor" sort of people. Like Floridians, Australians are very "outdoorsy". But like Floridians, Australians also love their Air-Conditioning. Three out of four Australian households now have Air-Conditioning, i.e. 75 %. The figure for the United States is 87 % of households -- see http://www.ausgrid.com.au/Common/Ab...nth=1&id=5dc6b7ee-56b3-4a69-bb6a-46352d18564f and http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/20...used-much-air-conditioning-americans-do/6498/ . Whereas in Europe only 2 % of German households have Air-Conditioning; 5 % of French households; but 99 % of Greek households, surpassing even the United States -- see http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...of-europe-still-cool-toward-air-conditioning/ . Here again I can't help but think that geography and climate explains the difference, because Germany never gets as consistently super-hot as Greece does during the summer months.

I guess when it comes to TerraLiner design I should resign myself to the fact that some people have strong anti-Air-Conditioning prejudices, i..e those who are northern European, and Germans in particular. But I can't design the TerraLiner just to suit German anti-Air-Conditioning preferences. The TerraLiner has to be designed also to serve wealthy retired people who are not German; and such people tend to be more American in their attitudes towards Air-Conditioning, than German. Read the articles that I referenced, and you may come to realize that your anti-Air-Conditioning prejudice is deeply, profoundly German. And you will also learn that it's a prejudice that that millions of non-Germans simply do not share.

So I see no reason whatsoever why the TerraLiner can't be both an Air-Conditoined vehicle, and simultaneously a very "social" vehicle that is open to the outdoors, and to other campers. I just don't see the same dualisms that you seem to see, egn, because I grew up living a very "outdoorsy", active lifestyle during my vacations in the Florida Keys, a lifestyle where at night I slept in an Air-Conditioned vacation home. Remember, I have personally caught and filleted thousands of fish, and I still have a mark on my forearm where I once got a sun-blister because I was out on the water too long.

The "two philosophies" dichotomy, I might suggest, is something that resides in the minds of those who are militantly against Air-Conditioning. It is a dichotomy that exists in the heads of Germans. But it's not a real dichotomy, and it's not a universally shared dichotomy. It's a culturally constructed fiction, and it is a dichotomy that does not have to exist.


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4. Reducing the TerraLiner's Heat-Gain: An Awning-Shaded Greenhouse


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There is no question that everything about the TerraLiner's camper shell needs to be designed for maximum energy efficiency. For instance, I would like to know whether triple-glazed windows for motorhomes exist. Double-glazed windows for motorhomes exist, but in residential construction, triple-glazed windows are now virtually standard in Canada, because they insulate so well against both cold and heat. The TerraLiner's windows will also have smart glass, so that they can go instantly opaque; and they will have built-in roll-down thermal blinds, to add yet more insulating capability.

The technical description for all of this is "reducing the RV's heat gain". Here is an interesting exploration of some aspects of RV Air-Conditioning courtesy of "Ask the Professor"; skip ahead 4 minutes 20 seconds into the video:






One thing that struck me in particular, is a very simple, dead-obvious, low-tech idea: that massive awnings will considerably reduce the TerraLiner's heat-gain. Instead of the sun hitting the side walls of the TerraLiner directly, the sun will hit the awnings, and the TerraLiner's side-walls will then be effectively in shade. This incidentally, is one of the reasons why old homes in the American south have such huge porches: so that the sun does not hit the sides of the house directly. So yes, the TerraLiner will have lots of windows, but lots of windows does not automatically mean "greenhouse" and "massive heat gain". Old homes in the American south also have lots of big windows, but their ground floors remain cool inside because of their huge porches.

This is also, sort of, the principle behind a "tropical roof", which we've already discussed; see post #138 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1569156#post1569156 .

I find it interesting that my "natural" inclination right from the beginning was to want the TerraLiner to be surrounded by as much awning and as much deck-surface as possible. Again, this is probably because as a kid I spent vacations in the Florida Keys, and sometimes at a cottage in northern Ontario. In both places the central socializing space was always the porch or terrace, and in Florida, large terraces are typically equipped with retractible awnings. So my natural inclination right from the start has been to want to design the TerraLiner to be much more like a cottage or Florida vacation home, with big drop-down decks and awnings.

This then led naturally enough to the idea of using the awnings as surfaces for more solar cells, of the thin-film flexible kind. And as I thought things through, I realized that drop-down side-decks could serve as rock-solid supports for a truly strong pergola-awning system that can withstand high wind-speeds. My main motivation here became enabling the thin-film flexible solar cells in the awnings to remain deployed for as long as possible. But as it turns out, there will be the added advantage that as long as the awnings are deployed, the "solar heat gain" on the side-walls of the TerraLiner will be significantly reduced. Advance ahead 7 minutes 5 seconds into the video for the discussion of awnings.

So put it this way: I have already been designing in a very sophisticated way to reduce heat-gain, while allowing the TerraLiner to still have large windows. Yes, when "unfolded" the TerraLiner will be a bit of a greenhouse, with lots of windows. But it will be an awning-shaded greenhouse.....:sombrero:

Agreed that the Air-Conditioning units installed will have to be the most efficient available. According to the technomadia website, the most efficient current Air-Conditioners are two-piece "mini split" systems, which are different than the Air-Conditioners usually installed in motorhomes -- see http://energy.gov/energysaver/ductless-mini-split-air-conditioners and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_conditioning#Split_systems . I haven't researched motorhome Air-Conditioners yet, so I don't know if this claim is true or not. For some interesting initial thoughts, see the ExPo thread at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...tually-install-mini-split-heat-pump-on-camper , and also see http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21837 and http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f56/using-a-mini-split-a-c-heat-pump-on-your-unit-58009.html . The most important thing seemed to be to first develop a very "rough ball-park" guesstimate of what the TerraLiner's peak Air-Conditioning power needs might be, based on analogies to households in the American south, or other RV's like the Class-A tested by technomadia. And this whole line of discussion came up, of course, because I have been trying to guesstimate the most appropriate size of the TerraLiner's battery pack.

Once we begin to discuss Air-Conditioning at length from a technological point of view, things will probably get very detailed and technical. For instance, some will claim that the best that Air-Conditioners can do is reduce the temperature inside a motorhome by 20 degrees Fahrenheit relative to the temperature outside, because Air-Conditioners have to "suck in" hot air from the outside. If the air outside has a Heat Index (temperature + humidity) of 110, then the "best" that an Air-Conditoiner can supposedly do is 90 degrees Fahrenheit inside. I've seen this claim repeated more than once on various RV websites, where the assumption seems to be that RV Air-Conditioners draw their air from outside. But this is false: RV Air-Conditioners recycle interior air, and there is no reason why an RV Air-Conditioner could not achieve the optimum 75 degrees interior temperature, even if outside the Heat Index is 120 -- see http://bryantrv.com/roofac.html :







The main issue regarding the outside temperature is overall camper-body heat gain, not sucking in hot air. So awnings will prove very useful. But so too, needless to say, adequate insulation will be very important, and triple-glazed windows (if available), so that no matter what the temperature is outside, the interior remains relatively "immune".

RV air-conditioners also seem to be different from residential air-conditioners in important ways, although I am still not clear what all those ways are. And then there is a debate about whether "Basement A/C" is better than "Rooftop A/C", with no conclusive arguments on either side -- see the discussion at https://www.rv.net/forum/Index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26042560/print/true.cfm .


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5. Why Glamping on Farmland is not an Illusion


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TerraLiner glamping on a farmer's field may or may not be an illusion. Only experience will prove things one way or the other.

But there is no question that many farmers are already actively encouraging motorhomes to camp on their land, as a way to earn extra income. Surely you are familiar with the French concept of "Camping à la Ferme"? See http://about-france.com/tourism/camping.htm and Camping à la Ferme .



[video=youtube;rJLNe0AAza4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJLNe0AAza4 [/video]


In North America, there is even an organization called "Harvest Hosts", which pre-arranges for RVs to "dry camp" on farms -- see https://harvesthosts.com . The emphasis is on one night for free (!!), but the mere fact that such a network exists, suggests that you are wrong in thinking that farmers do not want motorhomes to camp on their land. My own sense is that the exact opposite would be nearer the truth, especially if a motorhome were willing to pay a monthly rent, and stay for an extended period. Farming is a difficult business, margins are thin, and most independent farmers have to hold down various odd jobs in addition to farming, in order to make ends meet. They can't live off farming alone. Which his why in Italy so many farms have become "agriturismi".

But as Harvest Hosts suggests, farmers are only interesting in having RVs stay on their land if they dry camp. No hookups, no services for disposing of greywater or blackwater, and no shore electricity. That is precisely why I have been spending so much time thinking about all the ways to make the TerraLiner completely autonomous. For instance, an incinerating toilet to dispose of sewage. Rooftop rainwater collection, AWGs, and a watermaker to independently produce water. Massive solar and a big battery bank, so that the generator will need to run less often, and fuel for glamping can be extended much further.

From the point of view of physical space, nothing could be better for a TerraLiner than glamping on a farm. Unlike RV parks, farms that want to host motorhomes for "dry camping" will not have pre-prepared, dedicated pitches of certain set sizes. If one telephones ahead, and explains the size of one's class-A vehicle, then I am certain that the kind of farmer who wants to be a "Harvest Host" would have no problem finding room for the TerraLiner. However, because the TerraLiner would in effect be extending a new kind of tourism that was first developed in France to the rest of the world, it's quite possible that outside of developed world the TerraLiner would need to enlist the services of specialized travel agents to pre-book its long-stay glampsites. These would be travel agents that specialize in rural tourism. They do exist, and I know that Italy is full of such travel agents, because Italy has so many agriturismi. Or one might need to enlist the services of a single provider like Audley Travel in the UK, which is specialized in creating tailor-made "adventure" holidays that have unusual itineraries -- see http://www.audleytravel.com/?audcmp...vel&auddev=c&gclid=CLfNhaX79skCFVCZGwodLqgEDw . Asking Audley to research "Camping à la Ferme" glampsites across the globe for extended stays would be a bit unusual, but Audley is a company that is habituated to unusual requests.

So I simply disagree with you about glamping on farmland. Just because it hasn't been done extensively outside of France, does not mean that it's not possible. If I have time, later in the thread I'll do a series of posts in which I show how the TerraLiner might island-hop across the Caribbean. Yes, it can be done, because there do exist RORO vessels that can take the TerraLiner all the way from Miami to Trinidad, by way of the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, the U.S. and British Virgins, and the French Islands. And I'll show how on large islands like the Dominican Republic, it is in fact possible to find "Eco-Lodges" and "Organic Farms" that would welcome a dry-camping motorhome, even though they have no facilities or paved pitches for more formal RV camping of the kind where there's provision of shore-power, sewage hookups, etc. I researched the Caribbean in particular because I already know it reasonably well, and it seems like a relatively "demanding" context for the TerraLiner to travel. If the TerraLiner could find excellent glampsites in the Caribbean, then it could find them anywhere.


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[biotect]

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7. Authentic Travel


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In addition, another reason why I like the idea of glamping on farmland, is because that way one will actually meet local people, and potentially develop friendships with them, especially if one stays for 3 to 6 months.

As a long-time traveller, I am intensely aware of the kinds of "travel bubbles" that can trap one, preventing genuine interaction with locals. For instance, diplomats and service personnel employed by the American State Department generally find themselves living and working in the expatriate bubbles of embassy compounds, where they speak English every day with their fellow American co-workers, their kids go to English-language overseas schools, and all of their friends are like-minded Americans. They may think they are traveling and "seeing the world", but actually they are not. Even those who teach at American and British overseas schools and who live in houses in the local community, still continue to inhabit a kind of "expatriate bubble".

The same is true of those who sail around the world in yachts. They see lots of posh marinas, where they meet lots of other wealthy citizens of First-World countries. But they don't actually see the countries that their boats harbor in.

And the same is even true of young Americans and Europeans in their 20's traveling the world on a shoe-string budget for a "gap year", or a "year of travel." They all stay at the same hostels intended for budget travelers who have First-World passports, where they meet and form friendships with other like-minded Americans and Europeans. They do drugs together in Goa or Kuta beach, but only rarely do they interact much with locals, or the local culture. All of this was brilliantly captured in the movie "The Beach", starring Leonardo Di Caprio -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beach_(film) :






Here I would suggest that those who travel around in motorhomes often do not do much better. They meet each other at the same campsites, they follow the same routes, and they move around so often -- just a few days here, and a few days there -- that they see lots of different landscapes, but they do not actually get to know anyone locally. They too end up living in a kind of "motorhome-expatriate" bubble, only meeting and making friends with like-minded German or American motorhome owners camping at official RV sites. If they travel further afield than North America or Western Europe, then often what they want to do is "free camp" in the middle of nowhere, where once again they make no contact with local people.....:sombrero:

In my experience, most people who travel do not make a serious, committed effort to escape the "bubble" of the language and nationality that they grew up in. It's always possible, of course. One can volunteer with Habitat for Humanity to build local housing, or choose to work in a local school instead of an overseas school, or one can participate in local religious events and pilgrimages. But all of this requires slowing down and digging in, which people seldom do.

I would go even further, and say the following: for at least 50 % of the people who travel, travel does not broaden them one bit. If anything, it has the opposite effect: travel narrows them. I have encountered any number of people for whom travel only had the effect of making them more nationalistic, more attached to the country of their birth, and more militantly apologetic for all the defects of their country. Travel for them was not about learning to appreciate and love other peoples and other cultures. Rather, it was all about becoming more fiercely attached to the country that they arbitrarily happened to be born in.

This is especially true for people who only begin to travel in a serious way after they are 20 years old. Probably the most psychologically significant travel anyone can undertake, is extensive, multi-year travel that occurs before one turns 16. Children are still "open", relatively free of cultural and political prejudice, they want to make friends and they make friends easily, and they learn new languages quickly. This is why the "Experiment in International Living" and various Rotary exchange programs focus on high-school students: because the impact on a teenager of living with a host family in another country, and attending a local school there, will be profound, and will last a lifetime -- see http://www.experiment.org and http://www.rotaryyouthexchange.com . It will be profound because it will be authentic: actually participating in a local way of life. And it will be profound because teenagers are still relatively unformed, plastic, and "flexible". They won't just interpret what they are seeing through the glasses given to them by their home culture. They will actually be open to trying on the glasses of a foreign culture, the way it sees the world, and evaluates people and events in the world. For instance, they won't just see Brazil through American eyes. Because they are still impressionable, flexible teenagers, after a year living with a Brazilian family and attending a Brazilian school, they will also see Brazil through Brazilian eyes. Furthermore, they will come to see the United States through Brazilian eyes, and no longer just American ones. Which, needless to say, will all be very disturbing (it's called "culture shock"), will confuse the hell out of them for years to come -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock . It might incline them to study anthropology at University, and will render them somewhat distant from their peers back in the United States, when they return home.

Whereas it is much, much harder for adults who have not previously traveled to put on the "spectacles" or "glasses" of another culture. Often travel is completely wasted on adults. They are lost causes, and travel only solidifies their prior prejudices, especially if it's the kind of "fast travel" that most people engage in, including overlanders. After all, is there really that much difference between going on a series of package tours 2 - 3 weeks long each, arranged back-to-back over 2 years, versus seeing 75 countries with an expedition motorhome over the same period of time, averaging one country every 10 days? At least on a package tour one might have a guide explaining things, and one might one learn details about the local culture or history that one would be too lazy to read up on oneself. Whereas overlanding one might instead find oneself spending lots of boring time on the road, just driving.

Now the virtue of glamping on farmland for 3 months or more is that it would actively force one to get to know at least one local person quite well, namely, the farmer. And through that farmer, one is bound to meet a larger network of local people.

"Authentic" travel has become an important issue for me, because I've done so much of the less-authentic kind. So I would suggest that you and I probably have very different definitions of what it means to travel "authentically". For you it seems to mean camping in natural spots, and making friends with other campers. For me it would also mean that too, but only in part. For me "authentic" travel would also mean getting to know some local people at more than just a superficial level; it would mean visiting major cultural sights in large capital cities, hence my concern about the parking capabilities of the TerraLiner's TOAD; and it would mean really getting to know a country as more than just a collection of pretty places that one flies past at high speed. Or that one camps in for just a few nights each. Finally, for me traveling "authentically" means interacting with the surrounding environment through active sport: by bicycling, swimming, boating, kayaking, small-portable-trimaran sailing, diving, surfing, windsurfing, kite-surfing, and powered para-gliding. That's another important reason for that TOAD garage: to carry all the toys that would make such sports possible.


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8. Security, Farm Style


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As for security, you are right that once "unfolded", the TerraLiner will look like a spectacular potential target. It will look like a mobile beach house with lots of glass. But it will be a mobile house renting a spot on private farmer's land, and that spot will probably be far away from a main road, and probably not visible to casual passers-by. Personally, I strongly suspect that motorhomes are most vulnerable when they try to get something for nothing, i.e. when they "free camp" on public land. Whereas when one pays a farmer to camp, one in effect comes under the orbit of his protection, which will probably include his dogs and his guns.



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9. The Total TerraLiner "System" will be able to explore more than Blue Thunder


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Also always remember that the TerraLiner is not intended as a mobile home to be used just for a two-week vacation here, or a three-week vacation there. That's how you seem to have used Blue Thunder, at least so far. I could be wrong about this, but reading your trip-logs, that seems to be the case. ... See post #305 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1599434#post1599434 , or post #1214 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1744092#post1744092 , and for the trip-logs more directly, see http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-kola-2007 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-tuerkei-2008 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album.php?album=bt-baltic-2010 , http://poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-schweden-2011 , http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-irland-2012 , and http://www.poi66.com/show_album?album=bt-balkan-2013 (the trip-log website warns that it may soon discontinue).

Rather, the TerraLiner is intended to be a "mobile house" for full-time living, 365 days a year. It's a completely different kind of animal than what you've been habituated to. The TerraLiner will still be able to explore and camp in remote spots. In fact, it will be able to camp in remote spots and drive down narrow roads that Blue Thunder can't, because it will have a TOAD that is much, much smaller than Blue Thunder; a TOAD that is also equipped with a "camperette". So extended 2, 3 or 4-day trips away from from the TerraLiner "base camp" will be possible with the TOAD.

Of course, here when I say that the TerraLiner will be better at exploring remote spots than Blue Thunder, what I mean is that the complete "TerraLiner system" will be better: the combination of a large base camp for sojourning and putting down roots in one place for a few months, and a TOAD with camperette for exploring. It's the small TOAD with camperette that will be able to drive down narrow roads and camp in remote spots that are inaccessible to Blue Thunder. Not the TerraLiner primary vehicle itself.

So here I need to ask you: are you currently middle-aged, and still working? If you are still working, then you've probably had the chance to use Blue Thunder only for relatively short-term vacations, right? By "short term", I mean vacations that have lasted less than 2 months. Now imagine instead that you are retired, and no longer working. Could you live in Blue Thunder 365 days a year? For more than a decade? Could you imagine Blue Thunder becoming your primary and perhaps only residence? That's the question that you need to be asking, when you think about the TerraLiner.

When retired people with money in the United States ask themselves this same question, they tend to arrive at the same answer: they decide that they want a 45 foot Class A motorhome, with 4 slide-outs, towing a Jeep.


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10. Friendly Coda: the "Coke Song", and what it signifies


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But still, many thanks for the feedback egn!! You've helped me clarify and sharpen various ideas even further, and that is always a good thing. I realize that you speak from a tremendous amount of personal experience, as well as thoughtful reflection, and correspondence with you always remains polite and civil, even when we disagree.

Try to think of it this way. My design-ambitions for the TerraLiner are not just "physical" or "material". They are also logistical, sociological, and programmatic. What I want to propose is a globally capable motorhome/mobile house that not only looks different, but that is also used differently. Just designing another mid-size expedition vehicle (9 or 10 m) that strikes some kind of compromise between sojourning and exploring..... well, that has already been done. At least hundreds if not thousands of times. Sure, none of them have yet broken through to the idea of mid-sized globally-capable fully integrated motorhome. Expedition motorhome fabricators are all still just sticking rectilinear boxes onto the backs of construction trucks. But eventually they are bound to make the breakthrough to fully integrated designs, just as mainstream motorhome manufacturers eventually made the breakthrough to fully integrated designs back in the 1960s.

For me, what is much more interesting is designing a completely new kind of motorhome that defies existing definitions and pre-conceptions, and that makes a new lifestyle possible.

At a personal level, I am a deeply committed "one worlder": a global humanist who wants to promote global solidarity. This may seem "cheesy" or "corny" -- American expressions meaning overly sentimental or "kitsch" -- but I love the "Coke Song", which many consider to be the greatest advertisement of all time -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'd_Like_to_Teach_the_World_to_Sing_(In_Perfect_Harmony) , http://www.coca-colacompany.com/stories/coke-lore-hilltop-story/ , and http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smith...-coke-advertisement-180955318/?preview&no-ist :



[video=youtube;hiri_EDfU8U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiri_EDfU8U#t=38 [/video]
[video=youtube;2msbfN81Gm0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2msbfN81Gm0 [/video]


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Yes, I know that the Coke Song is a weird synthesis of hippie ideals mixed with rank commercialism, idealistic globalism used to sell global capitalism; and in this specific case, used to sell nothing more profound than carbonated sugared water.

But the Coke Song also signifies something deeper, something that idealistic globalists often fail to recognize: that the transition to true global community and a peaceful, flourishing world civilization, will inevitably be a process that mixes the spiritual and the commercial; that mixes culture, politics, and economics; that mixes ideals, power, and some fairly basic human desires. So in a certain sense, the Coke Song is actually more profound than an anti-advertising, anti-corporate, skeptical reading would suggest. Part of the path to global solidarity will inevitably be paved by global corporations and global brands, just as part of the path to world unity will also be paved by inter-religious dialogue, or the importation to the west of eastern practices like yoga and meditation.

All of this was beautifully captured in the last and final, bitter-sweet episode of "Mad Men", the American television series about Madison-avenue advertising executives -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men , http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804503/ , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_to_Person_(Mad_Men) , and http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/mad-men-person-person-219567 . The episode culminates with the Coke Song -- see http://time.com/3882114/mad-men-finale-id-like-to-buy-the-world-a-coke-ad/ , http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6568774/mad-men-finale-buy-the-world-a-coke-song , http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/22/mathew-weiner-mad-men-finale_n_7422608.html ,http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mad-men-series-finale-matthew-797302 , http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/coke-ad-mad-men-finale-history.html , https://medium.com/message/mad-men-and-the-coke-jingle-theory-4a5bf1fbaf02#.csjxuv60e , http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa..._campaign=comment-notificaiton#comment_516980 , http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/mad-men-finale-coca-cola-hilltop-ad-1201499510/ , http://time.com/3883496/mad-men-finale-jon-hamm/ , http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/mad-men-finale-jon-hamm-interview/ , and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-Hamm-explains-Mad-Men-ending-Don-Draper.html :







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11. Idealistic Aging Baby Boomers, and Promoting Global Solidarity through TerraLiner Design


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Now one of the biggest barriers to global solidarity is the comparative paucity of authentic, deep, immersive, extended, life-changing cross-cultural experiences. A few lucky young people participate in Rotary exchange programs, or have relatives abroad who they can visit for months during summers, and not just weeks. And now Erasmus is making it possible for European students to spend at least a year studying in another European country.

But the people who have the most time on their hands, and also the most money, and who can potentially travel in a deep way the most, are the active elderly. Personally, I think it's a shame when they end up sequestered in retirement communities in Arizona or Florida. And it's not much better if they only see the world via the sheltered, canned, and safely contained experiences offered by "Adventure" cruise-ship operators such as National Geographic or Zeaghram Expeditions. I think it's clear that many old people -- especially those who have money -- want to travel, and that's why there is such a big market in the United States for Class-A motorhomes.

Furthermore, they don't want to travel just the United States and Canada. I think they really would want to travel the whole planet, if a suitable vehicle existed, and if a logistically "sound" way to do so could be worked out. That seems to be the basic idea behind the business model of UniCat, Actionmobil, Armadillo, Earthroamer, etc. These companies have reasonably viable businesses because there do in fact exist people who want to travel the planet using large motorhomes. But none of these companies has yet come up with a vehicle format that approximates the American Class-A typology. None of them has yet created a vehicle system that might more nearly approximate the combination of spacious comfort + exploration capability that Americans enjoy when they retire in a 45 foot motorhome with slide-outs, a motorhome that also pulls a Jeep behind it. So far, those who want to travel the world in a large motorhome have had no option but to accept that their living accommodation will be a cramped, rectilinear box with small windows stuck on the back of a construction truck. So it's perhaps no surprise that there have not been that many enthusiastic buyers. The number of expedition motorhomes produced per year is probably a minuscule fraction of the number of Class-A's sold in the United States; probably less than 5 %.

There's then possibility that the market for expedition motorhomes might radically expand if "better accommodation" were made available. Notably, the market for Class-A motorhomes in the United States expanded dramatically with the invention of the power slide-out by Mahlon Miller in 1990. What was formerly a narrow cramped interior suddenly became a broad space that looks more like a nicely equipped small apartment -- see http://www.rvbusiness.com/tag/mahlon-miller/ , http://staugustine.com/auto/2011-06...ts-visits-********-gore-rv-world#.Vn-LlnmuD6k , http://www.examiner.com/article/purdey-follett-and-rohne-the-unsung-pioneers-of-the-rv-slide-out , and http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2009/05/rv_slide_out.php :

All it takes is a walk through an RV equipped with multiple slide out room extensions and you'll be ready to sign on the dotted line and make one your own.

The feeling of openness and the ability to have more than one person standing in the RV's living room at a time will dismiss that closed-in feeling instantly. A bedroom slideout is probably the most desired slideout of all because the bedrooms inside RVs are notorious for being cramped.

Having lived full time in RVs for over 3 years, the extra space provided with multiple slideouts really makes the difference between simply existing and living comfortably.

There is a really useful, eye-opening discussion thread about what it's like to live in an RV full-time at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1ujkeh/people_who_have_lived_in_rvs_for_an_extended/ . The topic that comes up most often is space. The attractiveness of a full-timing RV lifestyle changes dramatically for many people depending on the size of an RV. So my basic premise is that if a globally-capable Class-A were created that had real space, just like an American Class-A, many more elderly people would be interested in motor-homing the world. And the cultural consequences might be huge.

Old people are potentially powerful culture-changers. Not just the young have this capacity. The old are more likely to vote than the young, for instance, and they are more likely to take an interest in current affairs. Once they retire, they tend to go through a "second childhood", and their curiosity in all things reawakens with a vengeance. They become filled with wide-eyed wonder again, much like children. So what I want the TerraLiner to become is a "tool" that allows old people to immerse themselves in rich, deep, authentic, consciousness-changing travel experiences, slow-travel experiences that will awaken them to the importance of global solidarity. And because they vote, and are often quite powerful in their home countries, who knows what kinds of beneficial consequences might follow?

There is also the not-so-incidental fact that baby-boomers who are now retiring in the United States and Europe strike me as far more idealistic than my own generation. My own generation is hopelessly cynical. Mine is an anti-utopic generation for whom "hippie ideals" (global peace, solidarity, and love) are thought to be ridiculously naive, and kinda stupid. Every generation born since the 1970's has only gotten worse, ever more cynical. And let's face it, the "Zeitgeist" right now, circa 2015, is truly brutal and survivalistic, in both the United States and Europe. Even though continental Europe never went through a "Reagan Revolution", and the social welfare state remains largely intact in most European countries, there are some recent development in Europe that are truly frightening too. We live in times when ultra-right-wing, anti-immigrant, xenophobic Fascist parties may get elected in major European countries. And the only people I've encountered in my own lifetime who express genuine dismay that things have gone this way over the last 50 years, are aging baby-boomers who are now in their mid-to-late 50's, 60's and 70's.

So put it this way: I think it would be a real shame if literally tens of thousands of elderly American and European baby-boomers who enjoy motor-homing, were to follow in the same footsteps as previous generations of retired RV full-timers. I think it would be a real shame if they too found themselves driving around in big circles with their Class-A motorhomes along routes that only take in the United States and Canada, or First-World countries in Europe. Once you've seen all 50 states, and all 12 provinces in Canada, well, you've seen them them all. And there are only so many times that motor-homing to RV parks in Italy, France, or Spain stays interesting. Why run around in big circles in North America or Europe for 10 or 20 years, when as an aging baby-boomer one could slow-travel the whole world instead?

All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[Libransser]

Phase-Change Materials

How much Air-Conditioning are we talking about? Well, 60,000 BTU at a bare minimum, which is the amount of Air-Conditioning that a typical Newell motorhome carries. But probably more like 100,000 BtU, or 29 KW.

In post #2124 specifically, using various precedents, I worked out that the camper-box electrical demand of the TerraLiner when stationary and glamping in a very hot/humid climate, will probably run somewhere between 70 to 100 KW per day. Yes, this is a figure that is vastly different from your estimate or 12 KW per day. But if you read those posts, you will see how I arrived at this figure, and you might find yourself agreeing that this figure is not unreasonable, given my arguments and evidence.

I've been meaning to write about this for a while now.

In order to decrease the amount of energy expended in air-conditioning/heating, I've been thinking about using a more passive, energy-free method of controlling temperature, and that is the use of Phase-Change Materials (PCMs).

What are phase change materials?

Phase change materials (PCM) are substances that absorb and release thermal energy during the process of melting and freezing. When a PCM freezes, it releases a large amount of energy in the form of latent heat at a relatively constant temperature. Conversely, when such material melts, it absorbs a large amount of heat from the environment. PCMs recharge as ambient temperatures fluctuate, making them ideal for a variety of everyday applications that require temperature control.

The most commonly used PCM is water/ice. Ice is an excellent PCM for maintaining temperatures at 0°C. But water’s freezing point is fixed at 0°C (32°F), which makes it unsuitable for most thermal energy storage applications.

To address that limitation, PCMs have been developed for use across a broad range of temperatures, from -40°C to more than 150°C. They typically store 5 to 14 times more heat per unit volume than materials such as water, masonry or rock. Among various heat storage options, PCMs are particularly attractive because they offer high-density energy storage and store heat within a narrow temperature range.

More basic info at the following link: http://www.puretemp.com/stories/understanding-pcms

I haven't read extensively about this topic, but from what I have read, it looks very promising.

For starters, phase-change materials can be mixed into the insulation material used inside the walls of the TerraLiner. The insulation minimizes the heat transfer, and the PCMs can be used as an additional measure to control further temperature gains.

An additional complete layer of PCMs can be placed near the interior side of the TerraLiner's walls. And as it happens, there's also paint that can be mixed with PCMs.

Furniture can be multi-duty, doing thermal storage functions as well by having PCMs in its structure. The integration can be done in big ways, but small and impractical spaces created by more curvilinear design can also be used to maximize the TerraLiner's interior thermal storage capacity. It can work with bed bases/frames, closets, cabinets, tables, etc.

In fact, here's an example of furniture with PCMs. This is actually what prompted me to read about PCMs in the first place: the Zero Energy Furniture (ZEF) Climatic Table.






Note that the aluminium heat exchanger also functions as an structural part of the table, and its shape it's optimized to increase the heat exchange area.

http://www.businessinsider.com/zero-energy-furniture-table-cuts-energy-costs-2015-5
http://curbed.com/archives/2015/05/20/zef-zero-energy-table.php
Official website: http://zef-design.tumblr.com/

Textiles are another potential area where phase-change materials can be integrated for thermal comfort. PCMs can be added as a layer or joined to the fabrics of curtains, mattress, linens, pillows, towels, driving seats, etc.

So, in theory, all of the PCMs applied to the TerraLiner's interior would work as a big thermal anchor, trying to keep the interior temperature close to the melting points of the selected PCMs, reducing the need for A/C or heating.

By the way, PCMs can also be used by manufacturers to reduce the energy used by fridges, freezers, dishwashers and washing machines. See http://www.appliancedesign.com/arti...e-box-hot-technology-for-the-cooling-industry

On the exterior there are more applications.

PCMs can be used to make surfaces that can get too hot to the touch safer for the owners. This includes handrails, door handles, storage compartments doors, etc. For the interior, for example, after running hot water, metal sinks can get too hot for a while. With a PCM under the sink absorbing enough heat, they won't get burned by accident.

They also can be useful in regulating the working temperature of the solar panels, helping them work at more optimal temperatures.

And they can absorb high temperature peaks on motors, brakes and electronics, keeping them from overheating, and thus, working better and extending their service life.

http://www.microteklabs.com/where-are-pcms-used.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_material#Applications
http://www.teappcm.com/applications.htm

For all of these reasons, in my opinion, PCMs deserve a closer examination.

 

[biotect]

Hi campo,

Sorry that I haven't responded sooner; I needed a while to research your links. Simply incredible stuff!! I wonder why I haven't heard of PCMs, or why they have not received greater publicity. I've heard about just about every other kind of exotic building material.....


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1. PCMs


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Some of the websites you referenced suggested that these materials could eliminate the need for air-conditioning, and conversely, one would expect the same for heating. But that's only if the surrounding thermal insulation is really good. Heat transfer is the primary problem: preventing heat outside from getting inside the camper box, or preventing heat inside the camper box from transferring to an exterior that's cold. That's why aerogels now seem to be making their way into expedition campers. If memory serves, Iain put down a layer of aerogel under the floor of his Unimog self-build, and Bliss-Mobil uses aerogel to insulate the steel framework of its camper box, so that there are "no thermal bridges".

Think of it this way: even a traditional stone building with huge, thick walls does eventually heat up in the summertime. The good thing is that it retains that heat through the autumn. But in the winter, those stone walls gradually become ice cold. So by spring, when the outside air-temperature is getting warmer and nicer, the interior of a stone house is still rather cold, and hard to heat. So thermal mass can be a good thing, but only if there's great insulation on the exterior (which stone buildings don't have) to prevent the thermal mass inside from becoming the "wrong" kind of thermal mass.

However, very much agreed, it would be better if the inside of a camper box was "thermally anchored" by what might be the equivalent in thermal mass of one-meter thick stone walls (or whatever might be possible, for a given class of PCM). Remember, I live in Europe, and I've lived in traditional stone houses, so I understand the idea of a "thermal anchor" very well. And if non-toxic, non-flammable PCMs can be incorporated even into fabrics, all the better.

Via wikipedia, I came across the following companies, which offer various kinds of PCM "flat" products for use in building, refrigeration, and textile applications -- see http://www.pcmproducts.net/Encapsulated_PCMs.htm , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/thermal_storage_catalogue.pdf , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/BoardICE Catalogue-2015-1.pdf , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/eutectic_plates_catalogue.pdf , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/Hot Plate-1.pdf , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/Passive Cooling Ice Packs Catalogue.pdf , http://www.pcmproducts.net/files/Cold Store TES-2013-Low.pdf , http://www.crodatherm.com/home.aspx?d=content&s=185&r=1157&p=8113 , http://www.crodatherm.com/home.aspx?d=content&s=185&r=1156&p=8840 , and http://www.crodatherm.com/home.aspx?d=content&s=185&r=1157&p=8113 . When I first read your post, I initially thought that PCMs were some kind of very exotic technology that was still largely "vaporware". But turns out that this is not the case.

The idea, put simply, is that PCMs will provide a "thermal mass" anchor for a specific temperature range. Some work to anchor high temperatures; other PCMs work at an "ambient" temperature suitable for human habitation; and others work at cold temperatures, so they are good for refrigeration applications. The trick seems to be finding PCM manufacturing companies that specialize in PCMs that anchor an ambient temperature, i.e. those that specialize in providing "thermal mass" for construction applications, and "thermal mass" for textiles.

My only other concern would be weight. Water is a PCM, but that doesn't mean one would want to line the walls of the TerraLiner with tubes, plates, or micro-capsules filled with water. The issue here is not whether a given PCM weighs less than stone, steel, aluminum, or wood. Rather, the issue is whether it weighs much more than the kind of foam sandwich that Gunboat uses to make the furniture in its catamarans. Although the furniture inside a Gunboat catamaran looks like solid, substantial wood, it's actually just wood veneer on top of a foam sandwich -- see http://www.gunboat.com . So what one wants is a PCM that increases the thermal mass of the TerraLiner's walls, floor, ceiling, and furniture; without literally increasing their mass, i.e. their weight in kg.

It's not much use if a given PCM has a thermal mass density 5 times or 10 times better than stone, if it still weighs much more than what fiber-glass foam insulation would have weighed. What will matter is how much additional weight a PCM adds, over and above what the weight would have been for a steel sub-chassis with aluminum-framed construction of the shell up above (with steel roll bars), aluminum sheeting on the outside, and insulation behind that, as per Newell Coaches (see http://www.newellcoach.com/features/construction/ and http://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/newell-chassis-255502.html ; or stainless-steel construction thoughout + insulation, as per a Prevost chassis. For the Newell video, advance 3 minutes, 15 seconds; and for more about Prevost coach construction, see posts #732 to #736 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1672458#post1672458 :






What needs to be imagined, in other words, is a PCM inserted into camper-shell frames like those shown in these videos, a PCM that does not dramatically increase the weight of the vehicle, nor the wall-thickness.

If a PCM does increase the TerraLiner's weight, then we need to know by how much. And that increased weight has to be traded off against the extent to which a PCM might genuinely cut down on the energy required to heat and air-condition the TerraLiner. In a residential application, adding a PCM to the walls of a house is not such a big issue, because in residential construction, weight is not a big issue, period; especially the weight of the ground floor walls. If the walls weigh more because a PCM was added, not a big problem: just increase the size and security of the building's foundations. But in the case of the TerraLiner, added PCM weight might be a major issue, and a real sticking point.


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2. Newell's engineering objective: a very rigid "base chassis" to make slide-outs possible


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The following is just a side-bar observation: notice how in the Newell video the CEO explains the importance of having a "base chassis" that is very rigid and does not flex, if one wants to build a motorhome with four large slide-outs. Slide-outs in effect mean big "holes" in the camper box, and a consequent potential loss in strength and stiffness of the shell of a motorhome. So a motorhome with slide-outs needs to be carefully designed, so that less of the overall stiffness of the coach is dependent on the shell above, and more is dependent on the rigid chassis below. I've been saying this for the entire thread, but it's interesting to hear the same argument being made by the CEO of Newell.....:sombrero:

Here are some quotes from an RV forum, which confirm as much:

I read in another forum where this guy witnessed an aftermath of a tornado and on the side of the road were numerous vehicles which had overturned and included in the bunch were several RVs. Just about all of the RVs he saw were totaled and their "houses" were ripped apart and separated from their chassis'. Some Newells and Prevosts caught in the same storm were also overturned or on their sides but were intact where they could be repaired.

But Newell claims superior construction even when compared with a Prevost conversion. Here is what Karl Blade of Newell says about that comparison:

"Newell uses heavier steel framing below the floor and aluminum for the body framing above the floor line. Prevost uses a lighter steel frame below the floor and heavier steel body framing. The Newell approach results in more strength from the floor down. The Prevost design relies more on the body structure above the floor, in particular on a horizontal trust-like structure from the floor to the bottom of the windows running the full length of the coach. A significant difference in the results is that the Newell structure, deriving more of its strength from the structure below the floor and comparatively less from the body side walls, has been far more compatible with the addition of slide-outs, particularly larger slide-outs and multiple slide-outs, that require the sidewalls to be cut vertically."

There is a big difference in motorhome design between one that has a standard rail chassis and the house is attached to it and a semi monocoque one where the house is part of the chassis. In the event of something violent like a tornado or a crash you want to be in the bus with the semi monocoque chassis. A big feature of that type of chassis is resistance to flexing. Generally this means that when driving down the road the suspension parts attached to the stiffer chassis work better. Those chassis types are less susceptible to interior noise. As the miles pile up a semi monocoque will last longer.......

If you see a drawing of what the chassis looks like on a semi monocoque and rail chassis there is a huge difference.

Note that Newell still describes its chassis as "semi-monocoque", as a completely vertically integrated design, even though the upper part is aluminum, and the lower part is steel -- see http://www.newellcoach.com/features/construction/ :







And notice how a rigid, non-flexing chassis is a major engineering goal for Newell, precisely because its motorhomes have 4 slide-outs. If a camper body with slide-outs deforms even a little bit, the slide-outs will no longer work. They will "bind" instead of expanding and retracting smoothly.

This is a big problem in cheaper Class-A motorhomes with slide-outs, where poor construction has meant that after just 30,000 miles or so, their sidewalls begin to sag because of flexing at the critical slide-out corner points; the slide-outs are no longer properly aligned; misalignment damages their gaskets; replacing their gaskets is a huge headache, because often the entire slide-out has to be removed; even without misalignment the rubber seals used in many slide-outs get stiff and break; and of course all of this means that such slide-outs will leak. Slide-outs are the main source of water damage in contemporary motorhomes -- see http://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/2009/05/rv_slide_out.php , http://hubpages.com/travel/RV-Slide-Out-Dangers , and http://www.rversonline.org/ArtSliders2.html .

The articles just referenced then conclude that it's better to have a motorhome without slide-outs. Whereas my conclusion is that the TerraLiner will simply have to be better engineered and better built: built by specialists who actually know what they are doing, like Newell working in co-operation with MAN. For instance, Newell uses exactly the inflatable bladder system in its slide-outs described by one of the articles - see http://www.rversonline.org/ArtSliders2.html :

There is only one system I have seen that has some hope of providing a perfect seal when the slide is in and also when it is out. It uses an inflatable bladder, like a bicycle inner tube, that automatically inflates when the slide is extended or retracted and deflates during the moving process.

And again, because Newell builds its own chassis, it engineers the chassis to be rigid and non-twisting, so that the slide-outs won't bind.

Here I am thinking that if MAN and Newell were willing to work together closely, MAN could construct the rigid sub-chassis frame along with the hybrid drive-train, while Newell could construct the camper-box shell, slide-outs, and perhaps the interior to go on top of that. I say "perhaps the interior", because like you I don't like a great deal of Newell's interior design work. But Newell does have experience mating aluminum up above to steel below, and achieving a semi-monocoque result, so I don't see any reason why this could not be done in co-operation with MAN, if both manufacturers were willing. Newell already understands the importance of a very rigid chassis, so Newell and MAN would be "on the same page" structurally speaking. Again, the basic idea is that MAN has experience constructing super-rigid chassis frames for off-road trucks with big, XZL tires, experience that Newell does not have. And so too, MAN has experience with serial-hybrid drive-trains in its Lion City buses, whereas Newell has no such experience. Conversely, Newell has plenty of experience constructing high-end motorhomes with big slide-outs, whereas MAN has no such experience.

Now MAN has recently opened a new "Bus Modification Center" in Plauen, where it will do speciality custom work for luxury buses -- see http://www.corporate.man.eu/en/pres...ion_-individuality_-interactivity-223360.html , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...s-Modification-Center-132928.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ird-bus-modification-center-.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...s-Modification-Center-132928.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ird-bus-modification-center-.html&prev=search , and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...fbruchstimmung-artikel9351805.php&prev=search:

Nothing is impossible - buses for very special requirements

Bespoke work from Plauen

MAN quality and expertise from a single source

MAN brings together its expertise in buses at the BMC for MAN and NEOPLAN brand buses and coaches. The aim here is to work together with customers in searching for both ambitious and appropriate solutions to meet the individual requirements of the customer concerned. The BMC commenced operations on 01/05/2015. Around 140 employees work there to meet specific customer requirements.

The range of work undertaken here is varied and involves customers' exclusive special-purpose vehicles, specialist buses for use in the justice system or mobile library buses, as well as buses for specific customers including presidents or pop stars. The range of services extends from rear lounges and special toilets to features such as dispensing equipment, catering equipment and baths through to HIFI, WLAN or customised video solutions. High-end painting technology is used, for example, for very personalised colour requirements. However, the BMC also offers very straightforward conversions as well as vehicle refurbishment and repair work, for example replacing seats in used buses or paint work.

The work of the Bus Modification Center begins where the series portfolio ends. The BMC makes it possible to offer customers ready-to-use solutions from a single source for their specialist requirements. NEOPLAN buses modified in the BMC promise a very special travel experience.

The NEOPLAN Cityliner is being showcased by MAN at Busworld 2015.The vehicle has lounge equipment which has been individually designed by the BMC and which assists in communication during the journey. One of the particularly special features is a light and sound system specially designed for the vehicle. The NEOPLAN Cityliner presents itself as a Club bus with high-end equipment and 36 Exclussivo Plus seats. Of these, two double seats are arranged as facing groups on both the left and right-hand side. A lounge is located at the rear of the bus with space for eight people - this will certainly impress the passenger as a great place to meet or socialise. Comfort toilets and a large range of safety systems complete the equipment.

The NEOPLAN Skyliner premium double-decker coach combines two functions in a single vehicle: the lower deck has a bistro ideally designed for getting together with friends. This offers a generously designed and fully equipped L-shaped kitchenette, 18 Exclussivo-Plus seats and two double seats arranged as a group with height-adjustable tables. The starlit night sky lighting offers a very special ambience. The well-lit passenger area on the upper-deck has space for 50 passengers. Side windows reaching up to the roof, the glazed dome and a large rounded tail window ensure brightness and a perfect view - the NEOPLAN Skylight connect with is such a distinctive feature of the Skyliner.

But notice that the last two paragraphs do not describe motorhomes, but rather, luxury tour-buses, still intended to carry more than 30 passengers. Even still, it is interesting that MAN is trying to develop this kind of specialized, more "bespoke" sort of competence. Apparently the NEOPLAN bus drive-trains and shells are now being built in Ankara, Turkey, so Plauen will concentrate specifically on interiors -- see page 29 in the PDF at http://www.corporate.man.eu/man/med.../14_MAN_Magazin_Bus_01_2015_International.pdf , and here are some videos:






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Returning to PCMs, they are certainly very interesting. I don't think PCMs alone will completely eliminate the need for heating or cooling, because so much of that depends on insulation, and also on reducing heat-gain from the sun via traditional solutions like awnings and a tropical roof, as discussed in post #2227 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1990956#post1990956 . But PCMs will most definitely be part of the solution, because whatever cold or heat from the exterior does get through the insulation, will then have a much harder time destabilizing the interior temperature of the TerraLiner. So as you say, PCMs might at least significantly reduce the need for heating and cooling.

Many thanks, and all best wishes,



Biotect

 

[dwh]

dwh,

GREAT TO HEAR FROM YOU, DUDE!!

Man, to be honest, I missed you.

Aww...gimme some sugar baby.

I wondered where you'd gone.

I have a tendency to go off-the-grid at times (have friends with undeveloped property where I can just go do the hermit thing). The thing is, I like it, so once I get started, I tend to keep doing it. Once you're unplugged, plugging back in is sort of unappetizing. Even checking email becomes like...a chore to be avoided. Best ting is it gives me a chance to catch up on my reading. Finally got caught up on Alistair Reynolds, and now working my way through a bunch of Stephen Baxter that I hadn't got around to till now (BIG fan of Stephen Baxter).

You may have appreciated my citing you, along with egn, Joe Manigna, and many others, as some of the thread's "really big contributors". See post #1977, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1963989#post1963989 .

Will respond to the substance of your posts anon, but for now, just wanted to welcome you back!

Not much substance, just a little kibitzing. And, I'm not really back. Just popping in trying to catch up, but then I'll be laying low again. Might not be really back for months...or even longer. Just depends on my moods/whims.


Cheers!

 

[Silverado08]

.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

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6. A very, very rough Photoshopped "massing sketch" of the TerraLiner


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Just to give you a very general idea of what all of this might look like, here is a very, very rough massing sketch, in which I simply threw together various Photoshop experiments that I've produced over the last two years.

To represent the TerraLiner, I simply took a Rosenbauer Panther 6x6, increased its height to 4 m, lengthened it a bit (the original length was 11.77 m), got rid of the water turret, angled the windshield forward, brought the tandem axle forward to create a Chinese Six arrangement, increased the tandem inter-axle distance to 2.0 m for better trench-crossing capability, and slapped a large rectangular drop-down deck on the side in dark blue, to emphasize just how utilitarian it will look. No windows, nothing, and the same would be true or the TOAD trailer:



View attachment 321392














Here is the original Panther 6x6 product brochure:



View attachment 321390 View attachment 321391



I could have also done a similar quick-sketch using the Kamaz Typhoon as a basis, but I don't like the Typhoon's overall "militaresque", angular styling nearly as much as I like the Panther. Or rather, I don't like the Typhoon's angular styling at all; whereas I love the styling of the Panther:
View attachment 321393 View attachment 321394



The second image shows a "stretched" version of the Typhoon with a bigger windshield, along with the actual size of a Jenoptik 120 KW generator stored in a slide-locker. Yes, it really is this small, and t would fit in the space available quite comfortably.

Note that the tires on the Panther 6x6 would be much too big for the TerraLiner: they are a special kind of tire that Michelin makes for "emergency, crash, and rescue vehicles", intended for soft soil or sand in the XS series, and called 24R21, 24R20.5, etc. -- see http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/docs/michelin-xzl-pages.pdf , https://www.vrakking-tires.com/stock/21-inch/53-24r21-michelin-xzl-new.html , https://www.heuver.com/item/2607/24r21-michelin-xzl-176g-e2-tl , or see page 62 at http://tiregroup.com/Catalogs/PDF Catalogs/Michelin.pdf . They are about 1.374 - 1.388 m wide, which is quite a bit wider than Michelin's XZL 14.00R20s (1.258 m in diameter) or 16.00R20s (1.343 m in diameter), i.e. the kinds of tires that typically get put on large expedition motorhomes. But these big sand tires look kind of "fun" on this rough sketch, so I didn't bother changing them to the smaller XZLs.


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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

.​

This is way too impractical to drive anywhere but main superhighways..
Have you consider the cost of servicing all those tires and where to store the spares?
Have you ever driven class A bus or motorhome pulling a toad and tried to back it up into some camping spot?
Everyone I know driving those always looks for a campground that has pull thru sites..
unless one is a professional big rig driver you won't enjoy driving such monstrosity especially in Europe or some third world country

I'd go with straight bus 4 or 6 wheel drive and carry small bicycle perhaps with electric assist to cruise around at the destination at least that way one gets some exercise after siting all day driving or lounging at the beach ..

 

[safas]

Bio,
I don't see a RIB on your sketch.
As to height, you can reduce it a lot with a flip of a switch. At least if as your car has pneumatic suspension. Extra maintenance, but extra utility.

 

[biotect]

Hi Silverado,

I guess I need to ask you: do you think that the thousands of retired Americans who are driving around in 45-foot Class A motorhomes, and towing TOADs, are foolishly impractical? Did they waste their money on a Class A? Are the companies that build these large motorhomes in the United States, "impractical"? Are these companies that should now be bankrupt? And if they are not now bankrupt, and if they are still selling large Class A motorhomes that are 45 feet long, then what does this say? Have you ever wondered about who buys such large motorhomes, and why?

Yes, the TerraLiner is intended to be driven on roads that are also driven by trucks and buses. It is not intended to be driven on small dirt tracks that can only be driven otherwise by Jeeps that have 4-wheel drive. The TerraLiner is not intended for rock-crawling. But saying that the TerraLiner will only be able to drive super-highways is a gross exaggeration. It's a "hyperbolic" statement. Big buses and trucks will drive smaller two-lane streets and highways all the time, as do American Class A motorhomes that are towing TOADs.

The TerraLiner has big tires mainly so that it can enter a farmer's field without a problem, and then leave again. As someone remarked earlier in the thread, big tires and all-wheel drive on expedition motorhomes are there largely so that the vehicle can drive the last 200 feet to its campsite. Otherwise, like all other vehicles, for 95 % of the time even expedition motorhomes will use regular roads.

However, the big tires and very robust chassis frame are also there so that the TerrraLiner can drive large gravel highways like the Tanami Road in Australia, or similar highways in Asia and Latin America. Not all roads intended to be used by large trucks and buses are paved. In lots of countries they will put in a road that's big enough and wide enough to be used by trucks and buses, but it will be gravel, and not that well maintained. So it will be very corrugated, and any kind of ordinary motorhome with small tires and a weak chassis frame will not be able to handle it. Have you seen videos posted earlier in the thread of the Tanami Road? It has the width of superhighway, and yet it is gravel and heavily corrugated:






Notice the size of the tires used by the vehicles that travel the Tanami: they are not small. However, as I made clear, the tires in the schematic of the Panther are actually over-sized; they are a particular type of Fire-and-Rescue tire that is 1.38 m in diameter. The TerraLiner will not carry such large tires. Rather, like egn's Blue Thunder and similar-sized expedition motorhomes, the TerraLiner will carry Michelin XZL 14.00R20 or 16.00R20 tires, tires that are 1.258 m and 1.342 m in diameter, respectively; or the equivalent, for instance a specialized sand-tire of the same size. To maximize the amount of volume and height available for the camper box, as recommended by egn very early on in the thread, the TerraLiner will probably carry Michelin XZL 14.00R20 tires.

Before you object further, have you ever taken a look at the Unicat or Actionmobil websites? Have you actually checked to see the size of the tires that their 6x6 motorhomes carry? Michelin XZL 14.00R20 tires seem to be the standard, preferred size.

Also remember that a large tire-radius provides good under-axle clearance. One of the problems that smaller vehicles with smaller tires encounter when they drive bad roads like the Tanami, is that the ruts in the road were created by large trucks with big tires. If smaller vehicles try to follow these ruts with their small tires, their center-lines will get stuck on the mounds or ridges between the ruts. This kept happening to the vehicles that participated in Stephen Stewart's 2003 motorhome expedition through China and Tibet:

Without the pressure of expiring visas we set out from Qamdo towards Lhasa on the N317. The road is better than the N318. We know that because we are still moving - just.

But the road is really only suitable for 4x4s or trucks. As a result we are covering less than 100km per day. Every few kilometers we come to a rutted section or a small stream and we all have to get out with our pick axes and shovels and flatten the central ridge and fill in the ruts. It takes between 15 minutes and an an hour for each hazard.

When driving on roads like the N317 (as opposed to real off-road driving) the important thing is to have the same (or better) ground clearance as the most common vehicle (MCV) on the road (in this case the Dong Feng 7 Tonne truck). This is because any road hazard involving obstructions too big for the MCV will quickly get cleared by the MCV drivers.

One of the most common hazards on this road is a central ridge of rocks or mud created by the MCV digging wheel ruts on either side. Each passing truck scrapes the central ridge to a fixed height. If you can drive over this all is well, if not it means hours of work with pick and shovel removing the central ridge and filling in the ruts.

A typical standard campervan has around 210 to 250mm of ground clearance. Raising this to say 280mm would make a great deal of difference on this road. The only practical way of doing this is by fitting larger tyres and possibly larger rims and springs.

See http://www.xor.org.uk/travel/china2002/ , http://www.xor.org.uk/travel/china2002/20021010.htm , and http://www.xor.org.uk/travel/china2002/20021012.htm . This is why smaller expedition motorhomes with small tires will usually need to have portal axles, so that they have sufficient center-line clearance. Whereas in a larger vehicle it makes more sense to just have large tires.

If these observations about the problem of ruts are new to you, well, they should not be -- see post #1105 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1738798#post1738798 . The problem of ruts has been discussed before in the thread at length, so you may simply need to re-read some of the earlier posts in the thread.... Here I am generously assuming that you have already read all of the thread!..:sombrero: ...

For instance, the TerraLiner is not intended to be a traditional kind of motorhome that uses RV parks extensively, and it is also not intended as a motorhome that stays one week here, another week there, and that travels quickly between places. Rather, the TerraLiner is intended as a motorhome/mobile house that will drive from point A to point B, and then settle in for 3 months; and then it will drive from point B to point C, and settle in for another 4 months; and then it will drive from point C to point D, and settle in for 2 months. And so on, all the time glamping primarily in farmer's fields. Think of the TerraLiner as a mobile house, and not a motorhome, and you might understand the concept better. Or remember that I have very clearly stated the the TerraLiner is intended for "slow travel", and not for "fast travel".

Again, the TerraLiner itself is for sojourning, not exploring. The TerraLiner arrives at point B, it enters a farmer's field, and then it stays put. The TOAD does the exploring, not the TerraLiner. And the TerraLiner will be able to "dry camp" in a farmer's field for 3 months, because it will be an unusually "autonomous" motorhome, in terms of power, water, and sewage. It will not need the hookups of an RV park, because it will incinerate its sewage, and it will make its own water.

This is a very simple idea. Once you imagine the TerraLiner as an unusually "autonomous" mobile house, lots of possibilities open up. You need to imagine the TerraLiner as traveling in a way that is different from the kind of traveling that you are simply assuming as given. You also need to remember the target-market: retired old people, with time on their hands. Not middle-aged people or young people who want to zip around, traveling from one country to then next every 10 days. Furthermore, the type of traveling that the TerraLiner will do is exactly the kind of traveling that retired people already do with their Class-A motorhomes in the United States. They will go from point A to point B, and then settle in for a number of months, using their TOADs to explore, not their large Class-A motorhomes. The type of traveling that I am envisioning here is not new, even if you are personally not familiar with it. The only part that's new is the idea that the TerraLiner will be able to glamp on farms instead of RV parks, because it will be unusually autonomous.

The reason why there is a market for 45-foot Class A motorhomes in the United States, is that when people start imagining living in a motorhome full-time -- for decades and not just a few months, and not just for one year -- they realize that living space will be important to them. Please read the discussion about what it's like to live full-time in a motorhome at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1ujkeh/people_who_have_lived_in_rvs_for_an_extended/ , and please read post #2229 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1990959#post1990959 . Have you personally lived in a motorhome for a year? Have you lived in a small motorhome for a year with a "significant other", i.e. your wife or girlfriend?

"Impractical" is a very nebulous word, a word that is not much use when discussing different sizes of motorhome. "Impractical" does not have any real content or meaning, and amounts to nothing more than an emotive statement to the effect, "I personally don't like it." What is "practical" for a middle-aged person who only wants to use a motorhome on weekends, or for three-week trips, or for one-year on a round-the-world trip, is not "practical" for a retired couple who want to live in their motorhome full-time for at least a decade. Please read the thread that I just referenced. For people who have actually tried living in motorhomes full-time, having more living spaces is very practical. The thread just referenced is also interesting in so far as a number of participants talk about being forced to live in small motorhomes teenagers, because their parents split up, or because their parents were poor. They absolutely hated living full-time in a small motorhome, and they write that they never, ever want to live in a small, cramped motorhome ever again. The heartfelt hatred they express towards living full-time in a small motorhome is vivid, very real, and makes for sobering reading. Anyone who wants to comment on the proposed size of the TerraLiner should first read that thread. Again, see https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1ujkeh/people_who_have_lived_in_rvs_for_an_extended/ .

As for the other issues you brought up, yes, of course I have been thinking about spare tires (they go in -- or on -- the TOAD garage, where there will be ample room), and of course I have been thinking about breakdowns and servicing. Which is precisely why I have been specifying a serial hybrid drivetrain and two generators for redundancy. Have you read all the posts in which this has been discussed?

Most recently I posted about the basic problem that there are no truly "global" vehicles. Finding parts and service even for a truck manufactured by a company with significant global presence like Mercedes, Volvo, or MAN may prove difficult in many places. MAN does not seem to have any presence in North America, for instance, and no major European truck manufacturers have much presence in China or India. Presumably they won't have much presence in Indochina either, where I would guess that the preference might be for much cheaper, Chinese-made trucks. So the idea that a more conventional drive-train will magically solve the problem of parts and service worldwide, is I think a bit naive and optimistic. Especially in this day and age when all new engines are loaded with complex electronics. I could be wrong about this, but I would need to hear convincing arguments to the contrary. For instance, someone would have to show me a service map for Volvo, MAN, or Mercedes trucks that truly covers the entire globe, and especially Asia. See posts #2221 to #2224, beginning at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1990846#post1990846 . ...

Here are pages from a recent Mercedes PDF, which sum up Mercedes' truck markets worldwide -- see https://www.daimler.com/documents/i...r/daimler-ir-brochurefactsandfigures-2014.pdf :








Unlike MAN, Mercedes does have a significant presence in North America, because it owns FreightLiner. But it would be interesting to find out whether this will help one much if one has an expedition motorhome built on top of a European COE Actros truck, and one's Actros truck needs servicing in the United States. FreightLiner trucks are very different from the kinds of trucks Mercedes sells in Europe, if only because at a bare minimum FreightLiner trucks are CBE, cab-behind-engine.

Mercedes also seems to have a presence in Indonesia, which is interesting (and a bit surprising), and it has a new venture called "BharatBenz" in India -- see https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/bharatbenz/ . But the number of trucks sold by BharatBenz in India is still minuscule in comparison to the number of trucks sold in India by Tata Motors (59.3 % of Indian market share), or Ashok Leyland (25 % of Indian market share):








Furthermore, aside from two joint-ventures, Mercedes trucks does not seem to have any significant presence at all in Russia or China. And if a Mercedes truck is not a truly "global" vehicle from the point of servicing, then no conventional ICE truck is.

Also, please remember the TerraLiner's target demographic, and please realize that if you are middle-aged, and if you are not yet retired, then I am not designing the TerraLiner for you. So in that sense, it's kinda irrelevant what your own, personal preference regarding motorhome size might be....:costumed-smiley-007... I am designing the TerraLiner with a very specific demographic in mind. Remember that when designers create something, they always have a very specific target-market in mind. We don't design for everyone. Rather, we design with a specific group of people in mind. The mere fact that different sizes of motorhome exist, should make this self-evident. If there were just one "ideal motorhome" size for everyone, then motorhome manufacturers would create and sell just one size of motorhome. That they do not, should tell you something.

I don't really understand why such an obvious point is not clear to some thread participants, and having to repeat it is a bit tedious, although perhaps also necessary. I hope that the above arguments have been clear enough. But also please note that I have made all of these arguments before, earlier in the thread. None of these arguments should sound new to you, if you have actually read the thread.....

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[biotect]

Bio,

I don't see a RIB on your sketch.





As to height, you can reduce it a lot with a flip of a switch. At least if as your car has pneumatic suspension. Extra maintenance, but extra utility.

Hi safas,

The sketch was very rough-and-ready, merely intended to give a suggestive, non-exhaustive, very general idea of the overall format. The front cab-area that I've developed in CAD, for instance, looks quite a bit different from this sketch, in which I merely transposed the cab of a MAN Panther. The front wind-shield needs to be segmented, with flat sections that can be easily replaced.

And yes, agreed, height can be increased with the flip of a switch.....:sombrero:

As for the RIB, this remains to be seen. I first need to consult with a RIB-specialized marine-engineer, before I can take the idea of a RIB much further.

As remarked earlier in the thread, for a substantial and usable size of RIB to be included in the TerraLiner, the RIB would have to be designed and built first, and then the TerraLiner and/or TOAD garage would need to be designed around the RIB that's created. I think that a RIB 5 - 6 m long, just 1.4 m or 1.5 m wide, and just 0.8 m m high when the side buoyancy tubes are deflated and the center-console is folded down, should in principle be possible. But I don't know if it is actually possible, and I don't know what kinds of issues would arise, from a marine-engineering point of view. I have loads of experience -- literally thousands of hours -- driving a center-console Boston Whaler in Florida. So that's why I think, in principle, it could be done. But I am not a marine engineer, and only discussion with a marine engineer will settle a number of questions.

If it could be done, then I would speculate that such a RIB might fit into the inter-axle distance in the TOAD garage, where it would locate underneath the TOAD. If the center-line axle-clearance of the TerraLiner were 60 cm, and allowing 20 cm for the axles themselves, + 0.8 m for the RIB, then the TOAD would sit in the garage at 1.6 m. If the TOAD were 2.1 m high, then there would enough headroom so that its roof would top-out at 3.7 m. But of course we need to deduct more cm for the structure, the floor, etc . So perhaps the TOAD's roof might top out at 3.8 m, leaving 5 cm clearance, and then 15 cm for a tropical roof and solar panels.

In terms of the space available below the TOAD, here it's worth remembering that the front axle of a draw-bar trailer (also called a "dolly trailer" or "turntable trailer") needs to be passively "steerable", in the sense that it needs to be a "bogie" that swivels on a pivot, with the drawbar following the line of travel of the TerraLiner -- see http://www.kwtrailersales.com/3-axle-trailer/ , http://www.willig.eu/en/products/tank-trailers/drawbar-trailer.html , http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?36962-Steering-axle-trailers , http://www.koegel.com/en/products/construction-industry/flatbed-turntable-trailers/ , http://www.mccauleys.co.uk/trailers/Turntable , http://www.mccauleys.co.uk/trailers/Turntable_Trailers , http://www.chieftaintrailers.com/en...cling-trailers/32-roro-turntable-skip-trailer , http://www.chieftaintrailers.com/en...cling-trailers/32-roro-turntable-skip-trailer , https://www.humbaur.com/fileadmin/content/downloads/prospekte/en/Humbaur_Flatbed_Trailers_EN_01.pdf , http://www.oldburyuk.co.uk/trailers.asp , http://cmantruck.en.alibaba.com/product/1427782032-220149931/3_axle_draw_bar_trailer_dolly.html , http://scdtrailer.en.made-in-china....ull-Trailer-with-High-Fence-for-Ethiopia.html , http://ww1.safholland.nl/sites/neth...pensionsystems/swivelaxles/Pages/default.aspx , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(trailer), and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawbar_(haulage) .

In addition to the Oshkosh M1076 drawbar trailer already abundantly illustrated in posts #888 and #889, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1727009#post1727009 , here are some more images of commercially available, "high rise" drawbar trailers:









Most 3-axle drawbar trailers seem to be low-rise; it's only those used for agricultural and mining operations that have the big wheels and "high-rise" platform (1.5 or 1.6 m above grade) that will match the wheels of the TerraLiner.

However, the rear axles of the trailer do not need to be steerable, and so the inter-axle distance for most of the length of the trailer will basically be the distance left over after we deduct the width of the tires, and their suspension. Suspensions tend to be "V" shaped, in the sense that they leave a V-shaped space available above the axle, between the axle and the flat-bed of the trailer, which in the case of the TerraLiner's trailer, would locate at 1.6 m above grade. It's into this V-shaped space, roughly 70 - 80 cm high, that one would want to insert the deflated RIB, which also has a V-shape.

If in fact such a shallow V-bottomed and narrow RIB were possible, and still usable as a RIB, then great. But until I have an extensive discussion with a marine engineer, I cannot say for certain.

Note that there is no question that there exist lots of inflatable boats that are quite large, military grade, with hard flat (or almost flat) floors. Zodiac makes a complete range of them. The floor is a series of hard sections that one inserts into a boat that is otherwise completely foldable and inflatable -- see http://zodiacmilpro.com/inflatable-boats/ , http://zodiacmilpro.com/inflatable-boats/multipurpose-grand-raid/ , http://zodiacmilpro.com/inflatable-boats/emergency-response-boats/ , http://zodiacmilpro.com/inflatable-boats/work-boats/ , and http://zodiacmilpro.com/inflatable-boats/military-boats/ :



[video=youtube;RB_vJJSW7A0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_vJJSW7A0 [/video]


The last two videos give a really good idea of what such boats are like structurally speaking when inflated, when the Special Forces soldiers flip them. The third-to-last video shows a pretty amazing water-extraction by helicopter, and shows what a flat-bottomed boat can do, something that a boat with a more V-shaped bottom probably could not do.


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[biotect]

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The only problem with such flat-bottomed zodiacs is that they don't have the same sea-keeping abilities as a true "RIB", a RIB that has a rigid V-shaped hull to which buoyancy tubes are then attached. It's the rigid, V-shaped hull that gives a RIB its excellent wave-piercing and sea-keeping capabilities:






These two videos provide a good idea of what I want the TerraLiner's RIB to do, except of course that the TerraLiner's RIB will need "Sea Legs" attached to the bow and stern, so that it's self-launchable; and I'd like the TerraLiner to have an inboard water-jet engine, preferably a diesel, as opposed to an outboard motor.

But in the event that the kind of super-compact RIB that I've described is simply not possible, the "back-up plan" would be a completely foldable and inflatable Zodiac with a hard floor that one inserts in sections. Although the sea-keeping abilities of such boats are not quite as good as a true RIB, Zodiac constructs them in such a way that their rubber hulls underneath still form a quasi-V shape. You can see this very clearly in the first video below; and the remaining videos suggest that their sea-keeping abilities are not too bad, although the ride is much bumpier than in a proper RIB, and they don't have center consoles:



[video=youtube;Kp50QMA3LyI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp50QMA3LyI [/video]


All of this is a level of design detail that I have not yet worked out.

But given that some thread participants still do not seem able to understand the more basic, "big picture" design considerations, I figure it's just as well. The TerraLiner has to be developed in stages, with "big picture" considerations developed first, and then more detailed items like the RIB introduced gradually. For instance, certain fundamental issues about power need to be worked out: both the power needed for the drivetrain, and the power needed for the TerraLiner when glamping, because if the TerraLiner is a hybrid, these two kinds of power will be intimately related.

After all, I just got into a bit of a debate with egn about something as basic as whether or not the TerraLiner should have Air-Conditioning. It was an interesting debate for me, to be sure, because although I knew that Germans in general are against Air-conditioining, because of my stays with German relatives, I did not realize that such a small percentage of German households have Air-Conditioning -- just 2 %, which seems rather incredible. And just 5 % in France. This explains a lot. It explains, for instance, why egn thinks that being "outdoorsy" and having Air-Conditioning are incompatible, even though they are perfectly compatible in Florida and Australia.

As I've argued, I can't design the TerraLiner to cater just to German anti-Air-Conditioning sensibilities. The TerraLiner has to be designed with a potentially global customer-base in mind, and this will include North Americans and Australians. So once we throw Air-Conditioning into the design mix, our estimate of what kind of drive-train would be more suitable for the TerraLiner -- parallel or serial hybrid -- changes as well. It's these kinds of "big moves" that are important at this stage, not design and engineering details.

Think of it this way: if some participants still seem unable to understand the very basic "big moves" that have been made so far -- that the target market is retired old people who have the plenty of time and money to slow travel; that the TerraLIner's main vehicle will sojourn, and not explore; that the TOAD does the exploring, not the TerraLiner; that the TerraLiner will glamp primarily on farmland; that it will have a hybrid drive-train with fail-safe redundancy, etc. etc. -- if such basic points are still not understood, then what point is there in even posting the very broad, rough sketch that I did? Silverado's response to that rough sketch was somewhat predictable: the kind of response one might expect from someone who still hasn't understood the basic idea, the overall "concept", and who perhaps has not read the whole thread.....???...

My apologies for singling you out here, Silverado, but it's a bit vexing to have to repeat basic points that were already developed at considerable length earlier in the thread..... ...I cannot hand-craft bespoke summaries for every thread-participant regarding the thread's design-thinking so far; I just don't have the time! So if what I just wrote above in response to your post is still not clear, please see my earlier posts written in response to campo -- post #2037 and #2038 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1969223#post1969223 .

On the other hand, looking over what I wrote to campo, there may be a silver lining here: at least being forced to restate, and then restate again, the most "basic design moves" of the TerraLiner, is making it easier for me to be concise about those basic design moves!! ...:coffeedrink:

All best wishes,




Biotect