The Toyota Land Cruiser Is Coming Back To America

[SkiWill]

Toyota needs to tread very very carefully IMO, enthusiasts drive the legacy, LC are what they are in the US because of enthusiasts, they don't want to step on those toes and need to respect that relationship. It keeps prices up, drives forums sections like on Expo and IH8MUD, drives aftermarket, social media enthusiasm, etc....you lose or water that down, those thing start getting diluted and IMO (as an underqualified market analyst) you lose what the name stood for. If I was in that Toyota board room I would of fought tooth and nail to keep the drivetrain in line with other HD options....even if it wasn't needed, even if it didn't really make a huge difference in performance, the perception is the key IMO. I saw this on IH8MUD the other day, LX vs GX tie rod ends.....this is the stuff that gets most enthusiasts excited:

View attachment 790004

Enthusiasts don't buy cars. Toyota is a business that sells cars. How many enthusiasts bought new 200 series Land Cruisers? A few thousand a year, which is why Toyota discontinued it. Meanwhile Toyota sold over a hundred thousand 4runners a year, which are ancient in their design with completely paid off tooling that printed money for the company. For a company that sells millions of cars a year, the entire 200 series production in the US may as well have been a rounding error in cars sold let alone profit.

If you think that automotive companies car more about enthusiasts than the bottom line then go look at a new Defender, Grenadier, Land Cruiser, or Bronco and their pricing and content. Car companies market based on enthusiasm, but the couple thousand enthusiasts that could put money down for a new Land Cruiser and actually did, made no sense whatsoever to accommodate for a business like Toyota. It's not worth their time and effort to federalize. Toyota and Ford CEOs care a hell of a lot more about the competition that will inevitably come out of the EV manufacturers from China than a few overlanding forum dorks like us most of whom either won't buy a new vehicle or certainly will not every few years.

Also, drivetrain considerations are as much a CAFE game as they are anything else, so that is another major consideration that trumps the desires of enthusiasts.

The 250 Prado will be better in almost every objective category than the 80 series, but it won't be an 80 series, so I guess there's that to complain about. But let's not kid ourselves, Toyota doesn't care about enthusiasts. They care about customers that actually buy cars and buy cars frequently.

I recently had a conversation with someone who left the utility industry to work in hedge funds and he said it simplified his life greatly. In his old job he had to keep his bosses happy. In his new job he has to make money. If he makes money, his boss doesn't care how he dresses, what his politics are, or when he works. He just has to make money. Guess what they care about in the Toyota board room....make money.

 

[calicamper]

Why not just get a clean low mile 2022?

Something else I thought about from an enthusiast perspective is a more subvert position from Toyota....all the new rigs are (apparently) based on a common platform, why not make the attachment points the same so GX/LC250 folks can upgrade to the HD stuff when the time comes? Allow fitment of HD parts or sell them aftermarket, sim to what Ford did with the Bronco.....D60 and D44 front diff drop in replacements from Dana. You keep the enthusiasts engaged and promote an extensive OEM aftermarket much in the same way the older rigs can be updated to FF axles, H55 trans, modern split cases, etc.

You could buy a GX/LC250 and when the time comes buy a 9.5" rear diff for drop in replacement....that would be cool.

Good question
I’m going with Toyota is in the camp of no right to work on your own vehicle model for the US market. This actually plays into the company taking a silent stance on their brand dominated by Auto Group owned store fronts with now long established history of tacking dealer fees onto MSRP tags.

 

[K9LTW]

Enthusiasts don't buy cars. Toyota is a business that sells cars. How many enthusiasts bought new 200 series Land Cruisers? A few thousand a year, which is why Toyota discontinued it. Meanwhile Toyota sold over a hundred thousand 4runners a year, which are ancient in their design with completely paid off tooling that printed money for the company. For a company that sells millions of cars a year, the entire 200 series production in the US may as well have been a rounding error in cars sold let alone profit.

If you think that automotive companies car more about enthusiasts than the bottom line then go look at a new Defender, Grenadier, Land Cruiser, or Bronco and their pricing and content. Car companies market based on enthusiasm, but the couple thousand enthusiasts that could put money down for a new Land Cruiser and actually did, made no sense whatsoever to accommodate for a business like Toyota. It's not worth their time and effort to federalize. Toyota and Ford CEOs care a hell of a lot more about the competition that will inevitably come out of the EV manufacturers from China than a few overlanding forum dorks like us most of whom either won't buy a new vehicle or certainly will not every few years.

Also, drivetrain considerations are as much a CAFE game as they are anything else, so that is another major consideration that trumps the desires of enthusiasts.

The 250 Prado will be better in almost every objective category than the 80 series, but it won't be an 80 series, so I guess there's that to complain about. But let's not kid ourselves, Toyota doesn't care about enthusiasts. They care about customers that actually buy cars and buy cars frequently.

I recently had a conversation with someone who left the utility industry to work in hedge funds and he said it simplified his life greatly. In his old job he had to keep his bosses happy. In his new job he has to make money. If he makes money, his boss doesn't care how he dresses, what his politics are, or when he works. He just has to make money. Guess what they care about in the Toyota board room....make money.

Took the words right out of my mouth. 100% this. Toyota doesn’t care what the 40-something, 4th owner of an 80-series thinks. They care about what will sell a vehicle tomorrow.

Granted…they don’t help themselves making vehicles that last forever


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[nickw]

Enthusiasts don't buy cars. Toyota is a business that sells cars. How many enthusiasts bought new 200 series Land Cruisers? A few thousand a year, which is why Toyota discontinued it. Meanwhile Toyota sold over a hundred thousand 4runners a year, which are ancient in their design with completely paid off tooling that printed money for the company. For a company that sells millions of cars a year, the entire 200 series production in the US may as well have been a rounding error in cars sold let alone profit.

If you think that automotive companies car more about enthusiasts than the bottom line then go look at a new Defender, Grenadier, Land Cruiser, or Bronco and their pricing and content. Car companies market based on enthusiasm, but the couple thousand enthusiasts that could put money down for a new Land Cruiser and actually did, made no sense whatsoever to accommodate for a business like Toyota. It's not worth their time and effort to federalize. Toyota and Ford CEOs care a hell of a lot more about the competition that will inevitably come out of the EV manufacturers from China than a few overlanding forum dorks like us most of whom either won't buy a new vehicle or certainly will not every few years.

Also, drivetrain considerations are as much a CAFE game as they are anything else, so that is another major consideration that trumps the desires of enthusiasts.

The 250 Prado will be better in almost every objective category than the 80 series, but it won't be an 80 series, so I guess there's that to complain about. But let's not kid ourselves, Toyota doesn't care about enthusiasts. They care about customers that actually buy cars and buy cars frequently.

I recently had a conversation with someone who left the utility industry to work in hedge funds and he said it simplified his life greatly. In his old job he had to keep his bosses happy. In his new job he has to make money. If he makes money, his boss doesn't care how he dresses, what his politics are, or when he works. He just has to make money. Guess what they care about in the Toyota board room....make money.

I'm as much of a capitalist as anybody but I think what you are saying is very shortsighted. The "Landcruiser" name, along with the Toyota "Minitruck" are where they are because of the legacy. Enthusiasts are a large part of that history and legacy by continuing to repair, build out and modify 30+ year old rigs.....doing that creates market share for the new ones. I'd agree enthusiasts don't effect things in the short term, in the LONG term I 100% believe they are the glue that holds it together, no question.

I'd say your examples of the Gren and Bronco are examples that prove the point.....that enthusiasm comes from "enthusiasts", you dilute that too much you are screwed. It's exactly why the Gren is so popular, they are pulling on the historical and legacy values of the LR, it harkens back to the Camel Trophy days and the ability to keep re-sale value up is based on perceived reliability, which is based on quality construction which is based on the ability for them to be serviced over 10-15-20+ years and the enthusiasts to keep them running and driving them.

The majority of Landcruisers 20+ years old are in the hands enthusiasts and are still being driven, that is worth something and Toyota is always quick to point it out.

What we see with this new LC250 is a shift from that, a dangerous one IMO.

 

[MotoDave]

I bet there are a lot more enthusiasts that can afford a payment on a $50k land cruiser than a $90k land cruiser

 

[nickw]

Took the words right out of my mouth. 100% this. Toyota doesn’t care what the 40-something, 4th owner of an 80-series thinks. They care about what will sell a vehicle tomorrow.

Granted…they don’t help themselves making vehicles that last forever


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That's not necessarily true - 4th owner of an 80 drives perceived reliability and common consensus amongst consumers, Toyota didn't get to where they are by making something that didn't last and wasn't popular 2nd/3rd or 4th hand.

I bet if you go and ask an average buyer of a Tacoma/4runner/FJ/LC they'll have a story to tell about why they bought it that has some emotion.....friend had one they used to offroad in, uncle had an old FJ40, I see them being built on on IG....whatever, IMO you can't dilute that with a rig that doesn't have enthusiast value, it just becomes a Tahoe or a Explorer at that point. Nothing wrong with either of those but they lack soul and character that LC's traditionally had.

Bronco has character, is easily modified, Ford offers OEM parts to modify, they are fun and we'll see them on the road for years.....that is worth something to first time buyers and enthusiasts.

 

[nickw]

It's because it's a turbo charged 4 cylinder motor with hybrid to get the the 465 lbft torque number. That number is probably only available for seconds or minutes time scales and not tens of minutes driving from Denver up to the Eisenhower Tunnel. So, they rated it for what it will tow when the electric motor and battery are no longer helping the cause.

This is why the GX is rated to tow something like 7700 lbs or more as it has the 3.4 V6 torque monster and no hybrid drivetrain so it has well over 400 lbft of torque whenever you like.

Torque is not the primary metric for towing, necessarily. My Ranger had the sim HP to this and it towed 7500 lbs.

 

[nickw]

I'll also add, if Toyota wasn't playing the enthusiast game.....why compare them to "retro" cruisers and put in old school styling cues and use marketing terms that compare them to old cruisers? They are OBVIOUSLY playing the bait and switch a bit with vintage cruiser lineage, they need to be careful, because this may start to break that cycle.

 

[calicamper]

That's not necessarily true - 4th owner of an 80 drives perceived reliability and common consensus amongst consumers, Toyota didn't get to where they are by making something that didn't last and wasn't popular 2nd/3rd or 4th hand.

I bet if you go and ask an average buyer of a Tacoma/4runner/FJ/LC they'll have a story to tell about why they bought it that has some emotion.....friend had one they used to offroad in, uncle had an old FJ40, I see them being built on on IG....whatever, IMO you can't dilute that with a rig that doesn't have enthusiast value, it just becomes a Tahoe or a Explorer at that point. Nothing wrong with either of those but they lack soul and character that LC's traditionally had.

Bronco has character, is easily modified, Ford offers OEM parts to modify, they are fun and we'll see them on the road for years.....that is worth something to first time buyers and enthusiasts.

Parts availability and ease of fixing stuff. Thats definitely becoming less of a thing with Toyota and the 80’s have gotten challenging to find OEM parts that’s been a factor for a few yrs already.

GM is huge with remote types and farmer’s because you can pretty much get any part you need in town to get your truck running again. BFE Nevada parts store doesn’t have fuel pumps or whatever for the Toyota, Subaru etc but they have three fuel pumps for the GM truck. Reliability? Mehh The farmer with 340,000 on his daily work GM truck doesn’t really care when the city boy in his little toy Tacoma says oh yeah my truck can go 350,000😆😆.

 

[calicamper]

Torque is not the primary metric for towing, necessarily. My Ranger had the sim HP to this and it towed 7500 lbs.

Cooling capacity is today’s biggest challenge not power. They can extract huge power from small power plants but surface area to shed heat has physical limitations especially in smaller vehicles. This new version of a 4runner err LC would look pretty ugly with a grill the size of a MAC truck for a 8000lb tow rating

 

[DaveNay]

Looks like I forgot simple high school math, 27 is a 157% increase for me, duh.

I feel ya...I have both an Excursion with a v10 and a Suburban with a 454.

 

[DaveNay]

Cooling capacity is today’s biggest challenge not power. They can extract huge power from small power plants but surface area to shed heat has physical limitations especially in smaller vehicles. This new version of a 4runner err LC would look pretty ugly with a grill the size of a MAC truck for a 8000lb tow rating

Given Toyota/Lexus habit of putting giant Predator grilles on their cars, I wouldn't have been surprised to see exactly that.

 

[K9LTW]

That's not necessarily true - 4th owner of an 80 drives perceived reliability and common consensus amongst consumers, Toyota didn't get to where they are by making something that didn't last and wasn't popular 2nd/3rd or 4th hand.

I bet if you go and ask an average buyer of a Tacoma/4runner/FJ/LC they'll have a story to tell about why they bought it that has some emotion.....friend had one they used to offroad in, uncle had an old FJ40, I see them being built on on IG....whatever, IMO you can't dilute that with a rig that doesn't have enthusiast value, it just becomes a Tahoe or a Explorer at that point. Nothing wrong with either of those but they lack soul and character that LC's traditionally had.

Bronco has character, is easily modified, Ford offers OEM parts to modify, they are fun and we'll see them on the road for years.....that is worth something to first time buyers and enthusiasts.

So…fair point. Would be an interesting bit of analysis, though, to see how much that influence really ends up in new car purchases, however…which is what their after. Yes…that heritage and such plays a roll. It’s called marketing. It’s why people still lust after used Land Rovers, despite common sense dictating otherwise, for crying out loud!

Yes enthusiasts have some effect. The Trail Hunter Taco is evidence of that. I fully expect something similar may come down the pike with the LC, but while the Taco has a proven record for sales, there’s a reason they stopped with the 200 here.

I’m actually really excited to check these out, though, I also recognize that they probably would’ve silenced a lot of folks complaining by calling it anything other than a Land Cruiser


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[K9LTW]

Huh. A review that doesn’t just pander to Toyota…who’d of thought!? Interesting take on the 4R.

2024 Toyota Land Cruiser | Specs, Details, Pricing

After three long years, Toyota has brought the Land Cruiser nameplate back to the U.S. but it’s not the Bronco buster that we hoped it might be.

www.overlandexpo.com

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[nickw]

So…fair point. Would be an interesting bit of analysis, though, to see how much that influence really ends up in new car purchases, however…which is what their after. Yes…that heritage and such plays a roll. It’s called marketing. It’s why people still lust after used Land Rovers, despite common sense dictating otherwise, for crying out loud!

Yes enthusiasts have some effect. The Trail Hunter Taco is evidence of that. I fully expect something similar may come down the pike with the LC, but while the Taco has a proven record for sales, there’s a reason they stopped with the 200 here.

I’m actually really excited to check these out, though, I also recognize that they probably would’ve silenced a lot of folks complaining by calling it anything other than a Land Cruiser


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And I'm partially talking out of my rear end because I don't know....but I do know, I like LC's because of the heritage and design philosophy, it makes them unique and it gives them character. Using your LR example the "LUST" comes, in part, from the English gentile sipping his Gin and Tonic whilst sitting on the hood with the pyramids in the background of his 109. LR has fought tooth and nail to maintain that and you can see Ineos doing the same thing. I just don't want to see Toyota tarnishing or diluting that reputation with something that may be a "Landcruiser" in name but not in character.....how to define "character", who knows....made in Japan, overbuilt, design philosophy, rugged looks, not sure.

I agree, I am excited too, it's cool looking but I wanna know specs!