Tire chains, snow, mud, and airing down.....

[Metcalf]

We have a pretty good discussion started in another thread that didn't start out on the subject so I started a new one here....

The original thread started here...

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19356

Please continue.

Share your knowledge on tire chains and/or airing down for snow....and maybe mud.

 

[Metcalf]

I copied some of the pertinent posts here....

Posted by Metcalf
I'm going to go against the grain....

I don't like tire-chains or come-a-longs.

I would rather see people come out with a hi-lift jack and appropriate rigging. The hi-lift will solve more problems for the weight. You don't need both.

Chains are for ice, not snow. You will go farther in snow with low air pressure than you will with chains. If you are really worried about pure ice reconsider the chains for a set of studded winter tires. You can get studded winter tires up into the 37" plus range now. Aired down studded snow tires will amaze you. Chains are heavy and hard to store. To me, I don't know if they are worth the weight. I live in Colorado, so yes, we get lots of snow and ice.

Off road performance is about balance. You can carry enough gear to fix any problem the space shuttle might have, but you will end up overweight and break more parts. People need to look carefully at what they carry. I suggest going through your gear at least once a year to inspect whatever you are carrying AND to reevaluate if you really need it. The biggest problem I see with this expedition/overland concept is that people carry WAY too much stuff. Find the appropriate balance of gear vs weight vs space.

One of my favorite sayings.....'knowledge doesn't weigh anything'

Posted by MichaelGroves
Chains make a huge difference in mud as well as ice or snow(?), but I still don't think they are worth their weight (and other unpleasantness) unless you are expecting a LOT of use out of them.

A good quality, medium sized come-long, with lots of rigging is a great tool to have with you on an expedition. Also carry an air/exhaust jack and a good bottle jack, and IMO, the high-lift can be ditched, and good riddance. (I've always carried a high lift, and it's been useful many times, but I can't think of any occasion when I wouldn't have been better off with one of the three tools above.)

Posted by Antichrist
Depending on the type and depth of the snow, chains make a huge difference there as well. I've driven through 3 feet (and more) of snow with chains where I'm confident in saying airing down would not have helped very much.
Also, if you expect to be driving in a variety of conditions, a set of chains is going to weigh less and take less room than an extra set of studded tires.

Posted by Metcalf
Uh.....just put the studded snow tires on in the winter? No need to have both sets of tires.

Posted by 007
You bring up a valid point that most snow and ice situations can be handled with a set of aired down studded tires.

I've seen many people wrestling chains on when it wasn't needed, they could have gotten by with studded winter tires or packed a compressor to air down.

The problem we have up here however is that the snow persists year round in the mountains, so you can't possibly rely on studded tires in July. Also there is always an icy base underneath the loose snow because the snow doesn't melt away between storms. So studs are virtually worthless except on plowed roads.

I do most of my off-roading in the winter because of my work season and I can tell you that nothing beats 4 aired down tires (5-10 psi) with heavy V-bar chains. It is night and day with good chains on all 4 corners. Saying otherwise is like saying the paddles on a snowmobile track are worthless.

The come a long is also extremely handy when you have to reverse on a side hill without the back end sliding down.

I agree that for most the chains are not worth the weight because the snow pack is not persistent, but for me I'll gladly utilize the extra weight - They give you traction when stowed in the tool box also

I think that gets us caught up.....

Continue.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Very good comments that I pretty much completely agree with...

 

[Antichrist]

Uh.....just put the studded snow tires on in the winter? No need to have both sets of tires.

Well I was speaking in reference to long distance travel, where you're in one area where there is no snow or ice, or it's even summer, and your trip is taking to/through snowy/icy areas.
Don't get me wrong, I've used studded tires and they work great on ice. But offer very little benefit, in my experience, in mud and really deep light to medium weight powder.

 

[Martyn]

If snow just had one consistency then there would be just one answer to this question, but snow varies due to it's free water content. The typical Utah powder has little free water and when you drive over it doesn't from a large ice layer. Sierra Cement has a high free water content so when you drive over it forms ice.

The other variable are tires, treads, sipes, depth of tread etc. If you have a less aggressive tread then chains can provide great traction.

Deflating tires for floatation works well in some conditions as the tires ride on the top snow layer, stopping the car from becoming bogged down or sinking into the snow (think Iceland). But for changes in direction the tires have to have good tread.

Floatation is not required, nor is it necessarily beneficial, if the snow can be compacted, and the vehicle has clearance above the snow. In this case an aggressive tread pattern, or chains, along with a high psi from a small foot print are beneficial.

In addition to the snow variables, and tire variables, we have to add the variables of speed control, direction changes, and terrain changes (going uphill or downhill). As you can see the issue become very complex when you start to compound them.

 

[007]

EDIT: Didn't see your post Martyn so mine looks like plagiarism

The thing to keep in mind is that the Earth's materials, whether it be snow, mud, dirt, sand, etc., are infinitely variable in composition and character, so one solution or set of experiences is not that encompassing.

For example: What one thinks is a perfect snow tire could be a disaster for somebody using it at a different temperature because the rubber compound is not designed for it.

Or:

I thought I had the perfect mud tire (BFG MT) for a place in eastern Montana only to be rescued by a rancher that had a set of bald bias ply tires that the mud couldn't stick to. (my tires where peeling off the rims because it was so sticky it would build up and clog in the wheel well.)

My point is we should keep an open mind and avoid absolutes when possible

 

[Metcalf]

For me, it comes down to weight and space.

I think if your driving around in the winter, spring, or late fall a set of good studded snow tires is a good bet. You have ice traction from the tire at all time, not just when the chains are on. The tires can then be aired down for use in deep snow. This adds very little to no weight to your vehicle, but it is a trade off in the cost of a spare set of snow tires and/or wheels.

A set of chains adds about 75-100lbs. That is a good deal of weight, and generally is hard to store.

Also, most of the times you find you need chains is AFTER you have already had problems on ice. Slip, slide, then pull over and maybe put on chains. In general most people will not put on chains until AFTER they really need them.

I have always found that airing down works in the snow. I have been all over Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and now Colorado. Maybe its a combination of other things I am doing and my driving style, but I have never been in a situation ( knock on wood ) that I have wished for chains. I have however been in a good deal of situations where I have been with people running chains and wished they would remove them immediately and drop there air pressure. I am also not talking about airing down to 10psi, we run between 2-5psi for most snow trips. 10psi can help a lot, but the real magic starts to happen in the low single digits.

I have heard stories of people being out with large groups where snowy hills, after many people have had problems turned to ice, resulting in situation where chains ended up working well for people. I don't tend to go out with large groups so I have not had this problem myself. My middle of the road solution to this would be a set of studded snow tires, most likely heavily sipped and softened with tire treatment.

Again, this is my opinion, please do whatever feels comfortable for you.

 

[craig333]

If snow just had one consistency then there would be just one answer to this question, but snow varies due to it's free water content. The typical Utah powder has little free water and when you drive over it doesn't from a large ice layer. Sierra Cement has a high free water content so when you drive over it forms ice.

The other variable are tires, treads, sipes, depth of tread etc. If you have a less aggressive tread then chains can provide great traction.

Deflating tires for floatation works well in some conditions as the tires ride on the top snow layer, stopping the car from becoming bogged down or sinking into the snow (think Iceland). But for changes in direction the tires have to have good tread.

Floatation is not required, nor is it necessarily beneficial, if the snow can be compacted, and the vehicle has clearance above the snow. In this case an aggressive tread pattern, or chains, along with a high psi from a small foot print are beneficial.

In addition to the snow variables, and tire variables, we have to add the variables of speed control, direction changes, and terrain changes (going uphill or downhill). As you can see the issue become very complex when you start to compound them.

I think you covered it well. To me the weight of the chains isn't significant and I'll carry them. I'd prefer not to use them but its nice having the option.

Very vehicle dependent too. The truck will need chains long before the Jeep ever will. In fact the only time I've ever chained up the Jeep was on a play trip, multiple vehicles stuck, icy underneath the snow and there was no way my Jeep was ever going to pull a truck out of the ditch without the extra traction.

 

[Martyn]

EDIT: Didn't see your post Martyn so mine looks like plagiarism

I think a case of "Great minds thinking alike". Although, when I was a kid, my brother would always pipe up "Fools never differ" :sombrero:

 

[CruiserMog]

If snow just had one consistency then there would be just one answer to this question, but snow varies due to it's free water content. The typical Utah powder has little free water and when you drive over it doesn't from a large ice layer. Sierra Cement has a high free water content so when you drive over it forms ice.

The other variable are tires, treads, sipes, depth of tread etc. If you have a less aggressive tread then chains can provide great traction.

Deflating tires for floatation works well in some conditions as the tires ride on the top snow layer, stopping the car from becoming bogged down or sinking into the snow (think Iceland). But for changes in direction the tires have to have good tread.

Floatation is not required, nor is it necessarily beneficial, if the snow can be compacted, and the vehicle has clearance above the snow. In this case an aggressive tread pattern, or chains, along with a high psi from a small foot print are beneficial.

In addition to the snow variables, and tire variables, we have to add the variables of speed control, direction changes, and terrain changes (going uphill or downhill). As you can see the issue become very complex when you start to compound them.

I'd say that about sums it up. If you can run on top of the snow, single digit pressure absolutely. If it's not snow pack, and you're chewing through it to ground below, chains help tremendously. I'm always amused by people expecting tremendous performance from a lifted jeep on swampers on snowy icy roads, I'd take an Audi and Nokians any day over that combo. So yes, absolutely depends on snow type, but in soft snow chains will help a lot. My Mog has Ag tread tires, they dig through snow very well, but if the ground's hard and frozen underneath, you still need chains.

 

[Antichrist]

I came across an interesting WSDOT web page talking about traction being less on wet and dry pavement when running studded tires.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/winter/studtire.htm

 

[muskyman]

studs are out dated!!

a true winter perfromance tire with a heavily siped tread design will out perform a studded tire even on the slick-est ice.

Chains work well on trucks that have a hard time making enough tire spin to pump the snow from in front of the tires to behind them but if a truck can make tire spin the airing down and using tire spin will out perform chains on the same size tires.

aggresive treads on deep snow will help alot because the tread will act like a paddle wheel and pump the snow. chains will also do this but the added weight of the chains makes it harder to spin the tires so the pumping effect is reduced.

when you are spinning the tires in deep snow faster is not always better. Just like in sand there is a sweet spot where the tread shape and size relative to the type of snow will produce the best results. feel for this sweet spot and adjust the throttle for best results.

in real deep snow a serpentine driving style often helps you maintain progress compared to just driving straight. Just like in skiing but adding a small amount of constant turning you allow one side of the truck to cut through at a time and the added leverage you get by steering back and forth will produce a gracefull easier progress through the really deep stuff then just trying to plow straight ahead and break the trail with both tires at the same time.

 

[Metcalf]

They don't make BIG winter tires though......ie 35s-37s. Does anyone know of any company making bigger snow tires?

I find VERY minimal tire spin to work the best in snow, especially at slow speeds. I don't want to displace the snow, I want to pack it under the tire. This is where LOW gearing and LOW air pressure really works. It takes some practice, but you can get to a point where you can usually build up speed with very minimal spinning and cruise at a decent speed once you get moving.

In general, once I spin and start to dig I stop. Then I back up and try again. Once you find the right gear/speed you will make progress and gain speed without wheel spin.

The wheel spin thing might work better with 44+ boggers and 500 or more horse power....that is how some of the big Canadian snow wheelers do it. Every time I use wheel speed I end up on the diffs and belly, that is never fun.

 

[skysix]

With the chatter about Top Gear's Bolivian adventures - I found a link to their Magnetic North Pole trip. Anyone on the list ever use the AT405 from Iceland?

http://www.4x4offroads.com/at405-radial.html


Or the Green Diamond tires?

http://www.greendiamondtire.com/concept.html
http://www.greendiamondtire.com/testresults.html
http://www.greendiamondtire.com/productswest2.html

 

[Metcalf]

I would love to try the green diamond tires if they made them in bigger sizes.

I would also love to try the Arctic truck tires, but they are supposedly VERY expensive! Like $1000+ per tire!