2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[mpinco]

As one who has had Jeeps (J10) and Land Rovers (DI, RRC, LR4) the brands address a different market. Jeep is #1 in the US. I probably see a ratio of 50:1 Jeep vs JLR in Colorado. JLR sales in the US are rising which with the Brexit and China issues is keeping JLR afloat. Without the US market they would be on the sale block and might already be headed in that direction. Land Rover may no longer have any one market. They alreadly lost the home utilitarian segment. That said, in the US they are the luxury brand SUV and are doing well in that segment. JLR has moved upmarket as the product line becomes more furniture than outdoor life. McGovern has done a great job with the RR and Evoque but that is not the outdoor life market. Doubt McGovern has every been camping or wheelin outside a managed LR event.

Already said this but the war will be won between $25K and $40K. Twenty-five K? Yes because many new to brand owners and younger generation enter in the used market. They are your future customer. They also see their prospective vehicle as a hobby/project. No ability to customize? No passion. Do they care about safety? No. If the Defender is $60K to $70K the initial sales will be good and then it will tail off as Jeep maintains the lead. If Brexit and China don't resolve JLR will be under new ownership.

125K miles out of airbags? That's depressing. What would you expect from D44's? 500K?

Gladiator will do well. Expect that 50:1 ratio to continue. Still don't see D5's on the road. Most are RRS and Evoque's which highlights what market LR has moved to, luxo SUVs and Crossovers.

Land Rover Purists Skeptical of New-Generation 2020 Defender

".......But some of the iconic Defender’s die-hard fans aren’t convinced. They worry the new model will gloss over the Defender’s hardcore roots with fancy technology and posh features designed to attract wealthy buyers. Think Mercedes-Benz G-Wagon.

“I am sure that the new Defender will be very capable on and off road,” said Dennis Yard, owner of a 1993 Defender 110 and a member of the Land Rover Club of San Diego. “However, there won’t be much excitement.”.......

......Defender fans worry the focus on luxury and technology will push the price of some 2020 Defender trims to $70,000 and up. That would exclude serious off-roaders who expect the SUV to take a beating like the original did. The Defender last sold in the U.S. in 1997. It had a starting price of about $32,000.

“It will attract those otherwise drawn to a Mercedes G-Wagen, but is not likely to flutter the hearts of die-hard Land Rover fans,” Yard said........."

How many G-Wagon's do I see? ............ Even less than LR's. JLR needs volume to survive.

 

[REDROVER]

@blackangie
Keep up the good work,
History will prove your wrong,

There was nothing wrong with old beautiful defender, upgrade doesn’t mean 100% change,
Land Rover doesn’t stand by its enthusiasts unless your name is KIM Kardashian.

There is ONLY ONE DEFENDER

 

[JackW]

All this whining about the new Defender...
Coil springs versus air bags - what's wrong with good old leaf springs, drum brakes and no synchros in first and second gears?

 

[REDROVER]

How many wrong things should I point?

1 it’s reliable
2 it’s manly
3 it’s beautiful
4 it will get you home
5 it’s not comfortable driving down rodeo drive
6 it will never make you kiss service department managers ass

Thats 6 out of 100 wrongs with the old Land Rover

I am 36 years old,
I’ll never forget the first time I saw land rover advertise it was the defender going up the wall of the dam.

 

[blackangie]

@blackangie - are you being paid by the post or by the word? You like it and are excited, fine. And you’ve shared a lot of useful information, thanks! But for the love of Christ, man, people can have different opinions than you, and that’s alright. Pls stop with all the proselytizing!

By the word

There is a difference between different opinion and an extremely offensive posts to both LR owners and the brand some of us love.

Im going to stick up for it till the cows come home and the only business i have currently is keeping a 93 LSE going

I love different opinions and encourage them when they just that and not a rude offensive post. Go back and read again the post i replied to, if you own a LR, its offensive. If it was worded with respect and reason maybe a shorter reply or none at all would have been needed.

Posts like that is what got me on this forums new defender thread and others in the first place.

Thanks for your kind words, yes I'm excited. I just hope the get the styling right at this stage, everything else is ticking my boxes.



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[blackangie]

usually don't bother to read anything that long, mostly I figure it's BS

Aghh you missed out on a good family story

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[blackangie]

Thank you for the recap. My ears perked up when I read the above comment, only to find it comes from a dealer. So is it a leaked truth, or over inflated dream.

Yeah im not sure on that one, was surprised to find it, however JLR are on record in the research post above "what we know" saying they are releasing a family of defenders, but who knows.

Looking at the pilots at this stage i think for launch 110, 90, dual cab110, soft top 90 would be most we could hope for, however we could just get 2 hardtops and all other variants added later.


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[blackangie]

@blackangie
Keep up the good work,
History will prove your wrong,

There was nothing wrong with old beautiful defender, upgrade doesn’t mean 100% change,
Land Rover doesn’t stand by its enthusiasts unless your name is KIM Kardashian.

There is ONLY ONE DEFENDER
View attachment 512874
View attachment 512878

Very nice

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[REDROVER]

@blackangie
I own a Land Rover too,
There was nothing offensive in my post,

U even agreed you laugh at other brands and how Land Rover is amazing and Jeep is terrible.
In big beautiful USA we call that bias
I love my RRC but I’ll never disrespect other 4x4s
And the the reason we are here bumping heads is because we love the brand and we don’t wanna see it change from beautiful rugged to something that is coming soon.

I’ll see u in Death Valley with your new shiny defender, just make sure to have lots of water, tow trucks take a long time to get there.
Lol

 

[blackangie]

@blackangie
I own a Land Rover too,
There was nothing offensive in my post,

U even agreed you laugh at other brands and how Land Rover is amazing and Jeep is terrible.
In big beautiful USA we call that bias
I love my RRC but I’ll never disrespect other 4x4s
And the the reason we are here bumping heads is because we love the brand and we don’t wanna see it change from beautiful rugged to something that is coming soon.

I’ll see u in Death Valley with your new shiny defender, just make sure to have lots of water, tow trucks take a long time to get there.
Lol

"for years Land Rover boys laughed at other brands
Karma is a **********.
new land rovers look like somebody kicked them in the ass and smashed them in the head.
and now you guys also lost your beloved defender.
most of you talked **** about Jeep but don’t realize Jeeps ********** on rover, and it’s been going on for 20 years"


From your post, if thats not offensive i dont know what is .

Anyway all good water under the bridge let's move on shall we

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[ARK-MKTG]

Naturally we're biased but there is another way to have a 'new' Defender…

 

[DieselRanger]

......Defender fans worry the focus on luxury and technology will push the price of some 2020 Defender trims to $70,000 and up. That would exclude serious off-roaders who expect the SUV to take a beating like the original did. The Defender last sold in the U.S. in 1997. It had a starting price of about $32,000.

...And if we convert $32,000 in 1997 dollars (this was the base price, BTW, they on average went for about $45,000 plus tax and title) to 2019 dollars, we get $50,000. $45,000 in 1997 is about $71,000 today.

So many of the people complaining that it's gone too far upmarket either are too young to remember the last time they were offered here (and what you got for your $45,000 then compared to a Heep), or simply have a poor understanding of economics.

 

[DieselRanger]

All this whining about the new Defender...
Coil springs versus air bags - what's wrong with good old leaf springs, drum brakes and no synchros in first and second gears?

The same thing that's wrong with an air-cooled, boxer engine hanging over the rear-driven wheels, five speed, open diff, and a manual choke - absolutely nothin'. It's a very pure driving experience for what it is, just like an old Porsche is on a winding road. But for many reasons, it's becoming more and more difficult to build one vehicle that way that meets all the various safety and emissions requirements to be a true world car. Land Rover needs to stay in business, and they cannot stay in business making a vehicle that only sells a few hundred or a few thousand copies worldwide each year, or one that is tailored to each market. Unless, of course, they charge Porsche prices.

Additionally, much like a water-cooled, front-engine, front-drive, 6-speed manual Civic Type R will blow the doors off a 1974 Porsche of any trim, technology enhances capability, safety, and marketability.

If you want a pure offroad driving experience, buy a Polaris quad or rip apart and rebuild an old Rover. There should be plenty of rolling chassis available to import now that the 25-year import restriction has expired.

Even Jeeps cost northward of $50K today and resemble a Willys only vaguely in shape.

 

[mpinco]

...And if we convert $32,000 in 1997 dollars (this was the base price, BTW, they on average went for about $45,000 plus tax and title) to 2019 dollars, we get $50,000. $45,000 in 1997 is about $71,000 today........

Jeep in 1997 - $13,470-$19,210 vs the Defender in 1997 that as you noted on average priced out at $45,000.

Jeep Rubicon in 2019 - $42K vs a Defender that is predicted to price out at $70K

Which is why Jeep won the market segment and Land Rover Defender sold less than 500 vehicles that played a factor in leaving the US market.

Time will tell but it feels like the same scenario is playing out as Jeep captures the younger generation while Land Rover goes upmarket with a MB G-Wagon equivalent. I'd be pleasantly surprised if this didn't play out but JLR seems enamored by technology (not that they weren't in the past) that is a road to commoditization. Hey! The next JLR technology is bitcoin!

 

[DieselRanger]

Jeep in 1997 - $13,470-$19,210 vs the Defender in 1997 that as you noted on average priced out at $45,000.

Jeep Rubicon in 2019 - $42K vs a Defender that is predicted to price out at $70K

Which is why Jeep won the market segment and Land Rover Defender sold less than 500 vehicles that played a factor in leaving the US market.

Time will tell but it feels like the same scenario is playing out as Jeep captures the younger generation while Land Rover goes upmarket with a MB G-Wagon equivalent. I'd be pleasantly surprised if this didn't play out but JLR seems enamored by technology (not that they weren't in the past) that is a road to commodification. Hey! The next JLR technology is bitcoin!

The Rubicon tops out well north of $50K with the bits and bobs most want on it, and the Gladiator touches $60K, more with tax and title in many places. They're lifestyle vehicles, and that's fine. Interestingly, in 2013, FCA said the average household income of a Wrangler Rubicon buyer was $110,000. You're not making $110,000 fresh out of college, on average.

Land Rover has always prided itself as an aspirational brand, never mind its roots in post-WWII Britain. You start out with a used Jeep, but you always want that Defender. You start out in a Honda, but damn if you wouldn't give your left nut for a Porsche. Turns out men buy a Wrangler today because it's a midlife crisis car - the average buyer is 48 years old. I think if a Defender was available even for a little bit more, a significant percentage of those in their prime earnings years would opt for it instead of a Wrangler, especially if it can do everything a Wrangler can right off the lot, especially if there is more luxury for that money. There's a lot more money in the economy than there was in the mid- to late-1990s.