2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Pilat]

Thats what all the traction control stuff is for, it'll keep that 5klb, six figure vehicle from sliding off into the tree the old defender woulda hadda shrug off..

That is part of the safety aspect. Who says there just happens to be a tree there to stop the old defender. Having the vehicle stay where you want it to stay is a safety issue, regardless of the old one being to "shake it off". Slide too long, though, before hitting that tree, and you'll be sorry to be hit by a tree at speed with no protection of the old vehicle.

Have you ever seen old 4x4s being in a real crash? I am not talking about low speed rock crawling crashes where some might even have added a roll bar. Because, you know, that old Defender fairs really, really poorly in a roll-over. As do most old 4x4s and their occupants.

 

[DieselRanger]

Ok let’s say it’s capable, u can’t deny it’s absolutely fragile.
do you think any military will choose this as there new vehicle of choice? zero chance.
That means it’s not something you cant depend on.

More fragile than, say, a body on frame vehicle whose welds crack within few hundred miles off the showroom floor?

NHTSA Investigating 2018–2019 Jeep Wrangler over Frame, Steering Complaints

Owner complaints lead the agency to investigate about 270,000 Wranglers for wobbly steering and frame-weld quality.

www.caranddriver.com

But hey, it's field repairable, so just make sure you don't forget your arc welder and spare solder rods.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

 

[JeepColorado]

To those who advance the "you don't need articulation, you have traction control" argument- @DieselRanger I'm looking at you!

Watch the first 3 min of this video- can you honestly say that this is "good" off-roading? That looks unstable as h*** and that's on metal grates designed for traction, not wet rocks or a muddy incline/decline. A Wrangler with solid axles with the sway bar disconnected would CRUSH that obstacle and sure wouldn't bounce around and have that crazy drop in the front or lift in the rear.

Also note in min 2-3 the view from the inside- it looks as if you are sitting in a car- the view over the hood, down from the A-Pillar- even over the driver side door is non-existent- you can't see anything. When that front end falls from inside the vehicle your just hanging on for the ride whatever comes because you sure can't see where you are going.

 

[Pilat]

More fragile than, say, a body on frame vehicle whose welds crack within few hundred miles off the showroom floor?

NHTSA Investigating 2018–2019 Jeep Wrangler over Frame, Steering Complaints

Owner complaints lead the agency to investigate about 270,000 Wranglers for wobbly steering and frame-weld quality.

www.caranddriver.com

But hey, it's field repairable, so just make sure you don't forget your arc welder and spare solder rods.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

But, but, but, you can just use your LiFePo4 pack as a welder then. Just like they welded their differential to have lockers 100 percent of the time.

 

[Pilat]

To those who advance the "you don't need articulation, you have traction control" argument- @DieselRanger I'm looking at you!

Watch the first 3 min of this video- can you honestly say that this is "good" off-roading? That looks unstable as h*** and that's on metal grates designed for traction, not wet rocks or a muddy incline/decline. A Wrangler with solid axles with the sway bar disconnected would CRUSH that obstacle and sure wouldn't bounce around and have that crazy drop in the front or lift in the rear.

Also note in min 2-3 the view from the inside- it looks as if you are sitting in a car- the view over the hood, down from the A-Pillar- even over the driver side door is non-existent- you can't see anything. When that front end falls from inside the vehicle your just hanging on for the ride whatever comes because you sure can't see where you are going.

Again: Off roading is much more than rock crawling over boulders.. It is also about getting through that field, getting through that stream with rocks on the bottom (yes, TC ******), staying on the dirt road, travelling down washboards, and perhaps do it while towing something. It is about going from a to b or simply be out exploring.

What you're saying is akin to claiming that a trials bike is the best motorcycle ever, despite it being a very, very niche item. Yes, it will go over bigger boulders than an MX bike, but it won't be as fast or as safe on a MX course, it won't do it carrying lots of weight, and unless you modify it, you won't do any time on the road - if for nothing else than due to a complete lack of comfort. I like trials bikes, just as I like über specialised vehicles (including rock crawlers). But they're just that: Extremely specialised and not much good for anything else.

A farm-owner doesn't have to do rock crawling to need an off-roader. But there is no way that a rock crawler would be a good off-roader for such use.
It's funny how people on an "overlanding" forum thinks that a 4x4 should be a specialised rock crawler to have any merit whatsoever.

 

[JeepColorado]

Again: Off roading is much more than rock crawling over boulders.. It is also about getting through that field, getting through that stream with rocks on the bottom (yes, TC ******), staying on the dirt road, travelling down washboards, and perhaps do it while towing something. It is about going from a to b or simply be out exploring.

What you're saying is akin to claiming that a trials bike is the best motorcycle ever, despite it being a very, very niche item. Yes, it will go over bigger boulders than an MX bike, but it won't be as fast or as safe on a MX course, it won't do it carrying lots of weight, and unless you modify it, you won't do any time on the road - if for nothing else than due to a complete lack of comfort. I like trials bikes, just as I like über specialised vehicles (including rock crawlers). But they're just that: Extremely specialised and not much good for anything else.

A farm-owner doesn't have to do rock crawling to need an off-roader. But there is no way that a rock crawler would be a good off-roader for such use.
It's funny how people on an "overlanding" forum thinks that a 4x4 should be a specialised rock crawler to have any merit whatsoever.

If you think that articulation is only for rock crawling you might want to look again at most trails. Outside of improved Forest Service Roads I've never been on an off-road trail that doesn't require competent articulation and traction. Muddy ruts, any decent degree of incline/decline all require articulation- I actually rarely ever do rock crawling

I notice you didn't answer the question or address my basic premise that that is incredibly unstable and would provide a much lower degree of traction btw.

 

[webecinya]

My original tickford lasted longer than this new soft top. What a great idea LR.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dreadlocks]

Rock crawlers are crap IMO, build a vehicle capable of conquering the most daunting obstacles head on with brute force, and now 99% of the rest of the trails are thoughtless as your daily commute.. lines? who cares, every line is good.. and now the vehicle is terrible at everything not trail related.. technical is a relative term, eventually it becomes meaningless as you build to the point nothing is technical anymore.

Last spring I went over 3 gravel passes in Colorado, while they were still closed for winter and had not been driven on anything bigger than an ATV yet, I lead a stock Jeep through several snow packed ledge trails that was nervous.. we stayed close together the whole time incase one of us needed a yank.. this year I went a few dozen miles down a trail to find a nice shooting spot w/my son, two wheels many times, traction control in full, bunch of mud, couple water crossings and the only other vehicles I came across were dirt bikes and ATVs.. full Cameras are awesome on a trail, haven't ever needed a spotter.. I have a line showing me where my wheels are and a nice wide angle perspective.

Traction is tires, you aint getting anywhere with 20in street tires.. I go on off road trails all the time here in Colorado in my quintessential mom suv with 30in All Terrains on 17s, You'd be surprised where I could follow you.. the only thing I'd like more than what I have now is better approach/departure angles and ability to mount a winch.. all of which the new Defender would offer me, but I'd loose Diesel power.. ugh.

Is my vehicle a purpose built trail vehicle? No, Ive got a Jeep too and driven plenty of places I'd never take my Audi SUV, but for the most part they are in the minority and difficult to conquer in even a stock Jeep.. Will I take my vehicle down trails? you bet **************** I will, worst case I encounter an obstacle I cant beat and have to turn back.. Ive had to do that too even in built offroaders, there's always a bigger challenge out there if your looking for that kind of thing.. but when I'm just out exploring, alone and in offseason.. those arent really the places I like to end up anymore.. I'm every bit as capable as a Touareg or Cayenne, same vehicle just w/an Audi badge.

There's also the extra piece of mind about changing weather conditions, if I tow my trailer down a forest service road and setup at dispersed camp.. I wanna know that if it snows/rains tomorrow I'll get the trailer back out of this now drainage system I pulled it into.

Touring in off road vehicles is rubbish, off roading in Touring vehicles is rubbish.. Defender checks alot of boxes for me, sucks for you it leaves so many empty.. I'm not looking to drive an old ass military vehicle on 10k mile expeditions.. there's already more roads than I can explore, not being able to defeat less than 1% of it is no big loss.

 

[Pilat]

If you think that articulation is only for rock crawling you might want to look again at most trails. Outside of improved Forest Service Roads I've never been on an off-road trail that doesn't require competent articulation and traction. Muddy ruts, any decent degree of incline/decline all require articulation- I actually rarely ever do rock crawling

I never said there was no need for articulation at all. But with regards to "competent articulation": When I see rock crawlers with solid axles with loads of articulation, the do truly "tip" when the driver goes over. Quite violently in fact. This doesn't. It is also more sure footed despite the lack of articulation compared to a dedicated low-tech rock crawler. What also strikes me is that you're now complaining about the look out of the window of a Velar, not a Defender. Just as you're using the lack of articulation on the Velar as a point about the Defender.

Again, you seem to seek out boulders to crawl over, rather than using the vehicle to get from a to bo off the road (or on really bad roads). I get that. It's a hobby, so you can do as you please.

But, really, on loose gravel, snow, on ice, on rutted dirt tracks, through a field, through a stream, on sand, and to get the wheels down with more speed than crawling speeds, solid axles are lacking. Yes, if all else was equal to what it was 80 years ago, you might get better traction with a solid axle than independent suspension at crawling speeds. But up the speeds to even 20 kilometres an hour (about 12 mph, I think), and even miniscule corrugations or bumps and hollows in the surface you're driving will yield more traction in the one with independent suspension. Now add modern traction control and whatnot and you're not even close to being able to do a route as fast in a vehicle with 80 year old tech than you would in one with modern tech.

Why aren't all of you guys driving old Unimogs? It is much better than a Wrangler in it's off road capability. And, what about the new ones? You know, the U5023 ones where they only put a semi manual in to appease the old guard, but it is actually more capable with the automatic. Or how about its traction control? If you lift one (further than the portal axles), you could probably have even more "articulation".

Is it only due to (a lack of) money you guys don't drive Unimogs? Or could there be other reasons why that particular vehicle isn't the end-all, be-all of offroading? You know "compromises"? Is it too specialised? But isn't that what you guys want? A specialised rock crawling vehicle? Too big? Well, it can climb rocks better than most, so what's the problem? Is it too specialised to not work in other than a few very specialised settings?

 

[REDROVER]

hahaha what a world we live in,
Land Rover owner makes fun of other vehicles reliability,
do all Land Rover owners have amnesia or only some ?

 

[Pilat]

hahaha what a world we live in,
Land Rover owner makes fun of other vehicles reliability,
do all Land Rover owners have amnesia or only some ?

The point was the Defender-should-be-more-like-the-Wrangler brigade said that it would then be more reliable. That was what was poked fun at by him by posting that bit of reality. And were not even talking about old rustbuckets, but Wranglers whose welds were not even close to being up to scratch on a vehicle rolling out the doors in 2018/19. And it wasn't some high tech bits that went, but something that should be basic to a modern production line: Welding the very core of a vehicle.
But you're right. I wouldn't have an old defender unless it was given to me. It's simply not what I want in a four-wheeled vehicle.

 

[dreadlocks]

Just tow your trailer queen old defender, with your new defender.. bingo, best of both worlds..

Seriously tho, that is my plan.. I can tow dirt bikes, quads, and atv's all over the world and then there wont be anything I cant beat if I'm out looking for trophies to collect.. Sometimes when I'm out camped by Oray I'm like damn I wish I had the Jeep here.. but then when I'm in the Jeep I'm like damn.. I dont want to drive this to Oray and live out of tupperware containers all week again heh.. besides I'd miss my family, or the'd hate me if I left em all behind.

My Wrangler has not proven to be superior reliability in any way.. Chrysler couldn't even make a gearbox that could withstand the awesome forces of a 2.5L 4cyl.. damn thing grenaded beating it up and through the eisenhower tunnel.. good thing it was down hill the rest of the way home.

 

[Pilat]

I hear you!
But I'd rather tow my boat, and have a bike (as in "bicycle) or two on the back (or even in the boat).

 

[JeepColorado]

I never said there was no need for articulation at all. But with regards to "competent articulation": When I see rock crawlers with solid axles with loads of articulation, the do truly "tip" when the driver goes over. Quite violently in fact. This doesn't. It is also more sure footed despite the lack of articulation compared to a dedicated low-tech rock crawler. What also strikes me is that you're now complaining about the look out of the window of a Velar, not a Defender. Just as you're using the lack of articulation on the Velar as a point about the Defender.

Again, you seem to seek out boulders to crawl over, rather than using the vehicle to get from a to bo off the road (or on really bad roads). I get that. It's a hobby, so you can do as you please.

But, really, on loose gravel, snow, on ice, on rutted dirt tracks, through a field, through a stream, on sand, and to get the wheels down with more speed than crawling speeds, solid axles are lacking. Yes, if all else was equal to what it was 80 years ago, you might get better traction with a solid axle than independent suspension at crawling speeds. But up the speeds to even 20 kilometres an hour (about 12 mph, I think), and even miniscule corrugations or bumps and hollows in the surface you're driving will yield more traction in the one with independent suspension. Now add modern traction control and whatnot and you're not even close to being able to do a route as fast in a vehicle with 80 year old tech than you would in one with modern tech.

Why aren't all of you guys driving old Unimogs? It is much better than a Wrangler in it's off road capability. And, what about the new ones? You know, the U5023 ones where they only put a semi manual in to appease the old guard, but it is actually more capable with the automatic. Or how about its traction control? If you lift one (further than the portal axles), you could probably have even more "articulation".

Is it only due to (a lack of) money you guys don't drive Unimogs? Or could there be other reasons why that particular vehicle isn't the end-all, be-all of offroading? You know "compromises"? Is it too specialised? But isn't that what you guys want? A specialised rock crawling vehicle? Too big? Well, it can climb rocks better than most, so what's the problem? Is it too specialised to not work in other than a few very specialised settings?

I'm talking about Land Rover and the product they've given us over the last few years- as I've stated many times on here- I truly hope the Defender is different, I really do- If it is something truly different, then it has the potential of maintaining it's legacy and being worth mentioning amongst the greatest 4x4s of our modern times- if not, if it's like everything else they've done recently....well

 

[Pilat]

I'm talking about Land Rover and the product they've given us over the last few years- as I've stated many times on here- I truly hope the Defender is different, I really do- If it is something truly different, then it has the potential of maintaining it's legacy and being worth mentioning amongst the greatest 4x4s of our modern times- if not, if it's like everything else they've done recently....well

And you're not driving a Unimog because?