Am i reading this correctly? 2016 taco still has rear drum brakes...

[Clutch]

Ha, thought you might get a kick out of that.

Specs are definitely great. I'm seeing a lot of them in Mid-TN. They always catch my eye and earn a "what is that? oh... Colorado.." it's the window and bed lines that seem so weird/cool for some reason.

It looks so much better than the Tacoma, imo. Test drove it too...feels great, just doesn't feel like a Toyota.

I had a chance to buy a '14 F150 platinum ecoboost from a friend who was moving across country... for less than trade value. 12K miles on it. After spending 700 miles in a '13 XLT and then getting back in my Tundra, I almost went for it.... But in the end, my buddy would have given it away to me for ~$4500 less than he was getting from the dealer after tax incentives... as much as I would have liked the truck, I couldn't do it in good conscience... Of the 50+ vehicles I've owned, it would be the first non-Toyota (or Lexus) in 15 years... ultimately, bilking a friend and not being able to tow the bobcat were the reasons not to go forward.

I dig the F150's. That is #2 on the list of trucks to buy. Comes down to...I don't need that much of a truck (yet), even if I can pay darn near the same amount as a Tacoma. Again... the Tacoma simply feels "right" even though the re-do was a bit of a let down in a couple areas. Kinda waiting and seeing if there are great deals on a gently used '12-15 coming in a trade on the '16's. The '16 doesn't exactly blow my socks off...2nd gen is more than enough for me.

 

[moonshiner]

Clearly, you're a people person...

so let me ask you this... Why is the Tacoma the only Toyota truck or SUV to run rear drums? If they meet the need, why are they not good enough for the rest of the Toyota field?

The Hilux has rear drums too. Whoa!...was that sound of your head exploding? Minds blown.
Probably the same ones on the Tacoma too.

They meet the needs of the Tacoma and Hilux. Do you really think that all vehicles have the same braking demand? Other Toyota trucks and SUV are heavier and have more weight over the rear or are design to carry more weight in rear so there is more heat generated in the rear than drums can handle. That's my political guess only though.

 

[bkg]

The Hilux has rear drums too. Whoa!...was that sound of your head exploding? Minds blown.
Probably the same ones on the Tacoma too.

They meet the needs of the Tacoma and Hilux. Do you really think that all vehicles have the same braking demand? Other Toyota trucks and SUV are heavier and have more weight over the rear or are design to carry more weight in rear so there is more heat generated in the rear than drums can handle. That's my political guess only though.

You sidestepped the question

 

[Dalko43]

The Hilux has rear drums too. Whoa!...was that sound of your head exploding? Minds blown.
Probably the same ones on the Tacoma too.

They meet the needs of the Tacoma and Hilux. Do you really think that all vehicles have the same braking demand? Other Toyota trucks and SUV are heavier and have more weight over the rear or are design to carry more weight in rear so there is more heat generated in the rear than drums can handle. That's my political guess only though.

While the Tacoma, and the Hilux, are lighter than say a 5th gen 4runner, both those pickups exist for the primary purpose of being able to carry large amounts of cargo in their bed, and tow a reasonable amount, all of which puts increased weight right over the rear wheels.

There's no reason to believe that drum brakes have impeded the Tacoma's braking performance over the last 10 years (I really haven't see many complaints or reviews citing the rear drum brakes as an issue)....however, there is also no reason why adding disk brakes to the rear wouldn't increase the Tacoma's braking performance, especially when towing/hauling heavy loads up and down inclines.

I appreciate that everyone will have their own theory on this subject, but cost and design simplicity definitely factored into Toyota's decision.

 

[Owyhee H]

While the Tacoma, and the Hilux, are lighter than say a 5th gen 4runner, both those pickups exist for the primary purpose of being able to carry large amounts of cargo in their bed, and tow a reasonable amount, all of which puts increased weight right over the rear wheels.

There's no reason to believe that drum brakes have impeded the Tacoma's braking performance over the last 10 years (I really haven't see many complaints or reviews citing the rear drum brakes as an issue)....however, there is also no reason why adding disk brakes to the rear wouldn't increase the Tacoma's braking performance, especially when towing/hauling heavy loads up and down inclines.

I appreciate that everyone will have their own theory on this subject, but cost and design simplicity definitely factored into Toyota's decision.

I agree that they could be better with disk brakes but a lot of aspects of the truck could be better. I never had any issues with the brakes on my 2nd gen tacoma and I'm sure the 3rd gen will do just fine.

I don't know why everyone is worried about the brakes anyway. Once the C channel frame snaps in half you will slow down plenty quick. :wings:


Toyota's new advertising for the Tacoma is the worst part and a real turn off.

 

[moonshiner]

You sidestepped the question

I was joking about heads exploding, but yours really did. Reading comprehension just left the building on your part. The thought of the Mighty Hilux use drums really disturbed you.

I gave a direct answer to your question.

 

[moonshiner]

While the Tacoma, and the Hilux, are lighter than say a 5th gen 4runner, both those pickups exist for the primary purpose of being able to carry large amounts of cargo in their bed, and tow a reasonable amount, all of which puts increased weight right over the rear wheels.

There's no reason to believe that drum brakes have impeded the Tacoma's braking performance over the last 10 years (I really haven't see many complaints or reviews citing the rear drum brakes as an issue)....however, there is also no reason why adding disk brakes to the rear wouldn't increase the Tacoma's braking performance, especially when towing/hauling heavy loads up and down inclines.

I appreciate that everyone will have their own theory on this subject, but cost and design simplicity definitely factored into Toyota's decision.

4runners have pretty significant payload and towing capacity too. Adding disc brakes will only add additional heat dissipation performance. That's the only performance criteria that disc brakes are better at. Just because disc are better than drums in one criteria doesn't make superior as you often like to say. Drums have some advantages over disc too. Drums are cheaper (yes, cost is a performance criteria). Drums are self-energizing. I'm not going to bore you with the technical details but basically the rotation of the drum will drag the shoes into the friction surface when the brakes are applied, causing the brakes to bite harder, which increases the force holding them together without any additional effort being exerted by the driver. This self-energizing ability is why drums are also better parking brakes. Toyota and few other manufacturers still used a drum-in-hat parking brake in their rear disc setup. Do these advantages make the drums superior to discs? No. Every design has pros and cons. Very very rarely will you find a design solution that is the best at everything including cost.

I sure Toyota already tested overloaded Tacomas and Hilux up and down hills (probably to the point of failure, that's how you really learn if your design works or not is through failure) and determined that the amount of heat generated does not warrant a more costly solution. If you think that Toyota is using drums just to be cheap, well I guess you have a right to that opinion.

Ever noticed how rear disc and calipers are substantially lighter than the fronts? I would say that 95% of rear disc setup aren't even ventilated. Why? As stated already, rear brakes do a much smaller percentage of the braking and therefore don't generate as much heat. If you're towing, your trailer should have its own brakes if it's carry any significant weight.

Interesting how you mention cost being a factor now, but when I mention it back in post #66, you ignored it and kept on harping that discs are superior because they just are.

 

[Clutch]

Toyota's new advertising for the Tacoma is the worst part and a real turn off.

Think they are trying to keep cranky old guys from buying them now...why they are aiming at the younger demographic that doesn't know any better.

 

[Pilat]

If you think that Toyota is using drums just to be cheap, well I guess you have a right to that opinion.

And yet you harp on about how cost is a "performance critera" in your post:

4runners have pretty significant payload and towing capacity too. Adding disc brakes will only add additional heat dissipation performance. That's the only performance criteria that disc brakes are better at. Just because disc are better than drums in one criteria doesn't make superior as you often like to say. Drums have some advantages over disc too. Drums are cheaper (yes, cost is a performance criteria). Drums are self-energizing. I'm not going to bore you with the technical details but basically the rotation of the drum will drag the shoes into the friction surface when the brakes are applied, causing the brakes to bite harder, which increases the force holding them together without any additional effort being exerted by the driver. This self-energizing ability is why drums are also better parking brakes. Toyota and few other manufacturers still used a drum-in-hat parking brake in their rear disc setup. Do these advantages make the drums superior to discs? No. Every design has pros and cons. Very very rarely will you find a design solution that is the best at everything including cost.

I sure Toyota already tested overloaded Tacomas and Hilux up and down hills (probably to the point of failure, that's how you really learn if your design works or not is through failure) and determined that the amount of heat generated does not warrant a more costly solution. If you think that Toyota is using drums just to be cheap, well I guess you have a right to that opinion.

Ever noticed how rear disc and calipers are substantially lighter than the fronts? I would say that 95% of rear disc setup aren't even ventilated. Why? As stated already, rear brakes do a much smaller percentage of the braking and therefore don't generate as much heat. If you're towing, your trailer should have its own brakes if it's carry any significant weight.

Interesting how you mention cost being a factor now, but when I mention it back in post #66, you ignored it and kept on harping that discs are superior because they just are.

It seems a lot of it has to do with discs "Not being necessary", that it would "cost" them more money, and by stating those things, you seem to implicitly acknowledge that disc brakes are in fact superior, just not necessary to "warrant the [extra] cost".

 

[Dalko43]

4runners have pretty significant payload and towing capacity too.

I sure Toyota already tested overloaded Tacomas and Hilux up and down hills (probably to the point of failure, that's how you really learn if your design works or not is through failure) and determined that the amount of heat generated does not warrant a more costly solution. If you think that Toyota is using drums just to be cheap, well I guess you have a right to that opinion.

I'm sure Toyota did do extensive testing with the Tacoma using various loads. I'm willing to bet that through the course of that testing, they determined that the Tacoma's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) would have to be limited to a certain number because of several factors, including the brakes.

4runners do have a significant payload, about 6,300lbs GVWR compared to the new Tacoma's 5,600lbs rating. Brakes, as well as several other factors, are what explain that difference.

And didn't you yourself acknowledge that Toyota chose to stay with drum brakes partly due to cost? Why are you now criticizing me for bringing that up when you have made a point of stating the cost advantage associated with drum brakes over several different posts?

Interesting how you mention cost being a factor now, but when I mention it back in post #66, you ignored it and kept on harping that discs are superior because they just are.

Quite to the contrary, I've repeatedly acknowledged that the primary reason Toyota is using a fairly basic and repetitive design is because they are very focused on saving money.

 

[moonshiner]

And yet you harp on about how cost is a "performance critera" in your post:






It seems a lot of it has to do with discs "Not being necessary", that it would "cost" them more money, and by stating those things, you seem to implicitly acknowledge that disc brakes are in fact superior, just not necessary to "warrant the [extra] cost".

So you don't have a cost target when you're making design choices? Well, wouldn't that be nice to have unlimited resources for all my decision in life. But I wouldn't know how that feels since I've never had any unlimited budget. For those who do not have an infinite resource, cost is a heavily weighted criteria.

Cost is a criteria. It's on the design goals board along with braking distance, heat capacity, heat dissipation rate, longevity, etc., etc. that the designers/engineers are trying to meet.

Disc are better a heat dissipation. That does not make them superior. Just because something cost more does not make it superior. If you would've read my post thoroughly, you would have read that drums are better than discs at other criteria too. But that does not make drums superior. Almost everything have pros and cons. That's a concept that shouldn't be so hard to understand.

Toyota probably chose drum rear brakes because it met all their performance target whatever they maybe. I'm pretty sure cost was one of the targets along with many other targets.

 

[moonshiner]

I'm sure Toyota did do extensive testing with the Tacoma using various loads. I'm willing to bet that through the course of that testing, they determined that the Tacoma's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) would have to be limited to a certain number because of several factors, including the brakes.

4runners do have a significant payload, about 6,300lbs GVWR compared to the new Tacoma's 5,600lbs rating. Brakes, as well as several other factors, are what explain that difference.

And didn't you yourself acknowledge that Toyota chose to stay with drum brakes partly due to cost? Why are you now criticizing me for bringing that up when you have made a point of stating the cost advantage associated with drum brakes over several different posts?




Quite to the contrary, I've repeatedly acknowledged that the primary reason Toyota is using a fairly basic and repetitive design is because they are very focused on saving money.

So you still believe that disc are superior just because they are better at one criteria? Does that make drums superior too since it's better at another criteria?

What's wrong with saving some money when the solution you've chosen works just as well as the more expensive solutions?

 

[bkg]

So you don't have a cost target when you're making design choices? Well, wouldn't that be nice to have unlimited resources for all my decision in life. But I wouldn't know how that feels since I've never had any unlimited budget. For those who do not have an infinite resource, cost is a heavily weighted criteria.

Cost is a criteria. It's on the design goals board along with braking distance, heat capacity, heat dissipation rate, longevity, etc., etc. that the designers/engineers are trying to meet.

Disc are better a heat dissipation. That does not make them superior. Just because something cost more does not make it superior. If you would've read my post thoroughly, you would have read that drums are better than discs at other criteria too. But that does not make drums superior. Almost everything have pros and cons. That's a concept that shouldn't be so hard to understand.

Toyota probably chose drum rear brakes because it met all their performance target whatever they maybe. I'm pretty sure cost was one of the targets along with many other targets.

So GM and Nissan have unlimited budgets, by your logic? And discs are better but not superior?

 

[bkg]

So you still believe that disc are superior just because they are better at one criteria? Does that make drums superior too since it's better at another criteria?

What's wrong with saving some money when the solution you've chosen works just as well as the more expensive solutions?

If discs are not superior, why are drums not used on all vehicles on all 4 corners?

 

[moonshiner]

So GM and Nissan have unlimited budgets, by your logic? And discs are better but not superior?

Did you get your head put back together yet? You still seem to have a hard time understanding that just because something is better at ONE criteria over the other does not make it superior. Why do you keep avoid my questions? Drums are better than discs at other criteria, does that make drums superior?

GM and Nissan don't have unlimited budgets. They probably have a higher cost target, but they sure aren't getting their moneys worth, that's for sure.