Axle, diff & locker input needed

[stevenmd]

So now we know why the brash RoverX is no more.....you became civilized to fit in over here... From cheap beer and lousy smokes to finer living, good spirits and a nice cigar......(and they know how to really get out into the backcountry over here....)

Steven, just get a small trailer home is some far out Nevada county, where they care little about smog, and have all your vehicles registered there. Buy the place and write it off as the primary residence. Rent it out and use it to write off desert trips...

And get whatever Rover you want.......

Dang... all my secrets are out now... :rockon: LOL... I've thought about the whole NV thing but I'm wrestling with the ethics of it all...:cow:

 

[astateofmike]

I think that HD axles are the way to go. You can get them prior to lockers and then be set for the lockers. I like the idea of TT/DL, but I think when the time comes, I will go ARB for the selectability. If I could find an inexpensive way to "unlock" the front hubs too, my RRC would be 2wheel drive a lot of the time. I have heard that DL/TT work well. I think it has to do with your style of driving and your demands on the driveline. DL/TT will think for you. If you and the TT/DL agree, then no issue. If not, then it's time to figure that our. ARB are like my CDL. I can choose to engage or not. For some reason I can't explain, that seems to fit more to how I think/act/react.

But I'd go HD axles as soon as I could afford them. I await diffs to go from 10 to 24, and then to Keith for some parts.

 

[Allen Bosely]

With HD 24 spline axels & CVs and an ARB in the front, the weak link would be the (4.10 ratio) Ring & Pinion gears, correct? In an 83' 110.

Is there a HD version of Ring & pinion, either because of size (thicker) or better material/heat treatment? Is there any thing better than LR OME R&P?

Allen

 

[ntsqd]

I prefer an ARB simply because it can be turned off. Even a TT will cause some negative steering effects on slick surfaces (mud, snow) and uneven terrain. Can be scary at times.

Automatic lockers are simple (no air lines/compressors or extra wiring), but they have their drawbacks. Having owned both (and clutch pack limited slips), I can honestly say that I'll never go back to a non-selectable traction-aiding device.

In looking at shartzer's post, that would be my suggestion. Go ARB or similar in the rear and see how much you actually use it. I think of a selectable locker in similar terms as a winch. Only use it when you need it. I feel that having some sort of TAD in the rear is far more important than having one in front.
And, from what I'm reading, the ARB diff case - even when unlocked - is stronger than the stock diff case. So if it never gets locked in it's still an upgrade in a desirable area. Granted, an expensive upgrade, but an upgrade none the less.

As a 10+ year vet of driving Detroits on the street and off road I'm really glad that I find snow & ice to be wet and cold, and don't drive there. I can imagine that driving one on ice must be a religious experience.

[hijack]When I co-dogged a Dusy-Irshim trip lead by Bill Burke early last fall I got the impression that he liked the donuts as a 'fuse.' I see that not all of the Rover community is on-board with that.[/hijack]

Something tells me that IF I bought property in another state (for various non-residential reasons) that I'd find myself spending more and more time there......
So which state? Eeny-meany-miney-moe.....

 

[LC/LR4Life]

With ARBs you have less stress in highway driving, and a stronger carrier.

That's right. Also, an ARB off acts like an open diff, but tons stronger. I suggest buying quality after market ring and pinion gears, then the OEM stuff will not be in the back of your head as well.

On my Land Cruiser, I am getting 3rd members from JT Ring&Pinion out of Washington state already put together with 4.88 gearsets, ARB air lockers, and solid pinion spacers. You will NOT blow that up - axles would shear off first.

I suggest a similar solution to the Rover in question. Aftermarket 4.10 gearsets with ARBs, and heavy duty axles. My buddy Eddie just did the whole shebang. Costs were about $6000 installed at dealer. You could easily drop in the axles and 3rd members yourself, it's pretty easy (Save about $1500 in labor too). Eddie just doesn't have any time to undertake that sort of thing so he just sent it in to have it done.

 

[Alaska Mike]

My understanding of most of the aftermarket gearsets is that they are actually stronger than the stock gears. How much of that is hype and how much is true, I have no personal experience. Even with the strongest gearset for that differential known to man, you still have a relatively small ring and pinion.

If you load appropriately for the terrain you are going to cover and lay off the skinny pedal, there shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Allen Bosely]

I have been reading up a bit on the Toyota diff conversion. I think I might be starting to understand why it's done, I think. So I would like to learn more.

Here's what I think I understand.

The Toy Diff is a Hypoid type so it has much stronger pinion & gear contact.

Then by using say Longfield CV's and Toy axels would be very strong and could use an ARB locker and not have to worry about (used reasonably) braking anything in the front axel. Correct so far?

Can long field CVs and 30 spline axles be used or do I need to use a something different?

I'm not sure I understand all the correct combinations here.

If someone could walk me thru the parts and modifications to convert an 83'
110 front drive line over to a Toy 3rd with an ARB and big axels & CVs.

Are Keith's Longtracks CVs the only CVs that will fit in a Rover front housing
or will Longfields work?

Still trying to get a handle on this.

Allen

 

[LC/LR4Life]

Keep in mind that people still break Longfields. A birfield is a birfield. You can try to make them stronger, but it's still a birfield. There are also Newfields, and Marlinfields. Marlinfields are made by Marlin Crawler.

To be fair though, the stronger birfields like these aftermarkets are really stout, and usually only rock crawlers eat axles often enough to think about it. On an expedition vehicle, you really should be just fine (in my opinion) with Land Rover parts and heavy duty 24 spline axles with ARB lockers.

Keep in mind, there is NO end all combination. You can make things really stout, but in the end there can still be breakage. It's a matter of how you keep your composure, use your head etc that keeps stuff from breaking in timbuktu.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I think you really need to sit down and decide what capabilities you need. No vehicle is going to perform all tasks equally well. There are certainly trade-offs in any conversion. The more custom you go, the less likely it is to find parts for that component in the field. Certain things like upgraded axle shafts may never need to be replaced in the field.

Mercedesrover's Toyota 3rd member conversion axleshafts use standard u-joints, so I imagine there are others that are capable of making similar products for the 110.

So, bottom line, what does the vehicle need to do?

 

[stevenmd]

I think you really need to sit down and decide what capabilities you need. No vehicle is going to perform all tasks equally well. There are certainly trade-offs in any conversion. The more custom you go, the less likely it is to find parts for that component in the field. Certain things like upgraded axle shafts may never need to be replaced in the field.

Mercedesrover's Toyota 3rd member conversion axleshafts use standard u-joints, so I imagine there are others that are capable of making similar products for the 110.

So, bottom line, what does the vehicle need to do?

Excellent point. Perhaps it is the American way of thinking that "bigger is better" that often leads us down the path of overbuilding our rigs.

 

[Alaska Mike]

Been there, done that, and the wave has long since passed me by.

While I believe there is much to improve on a Series or Defender in terms of reliability and durability, I see no reason to overbuild the rig for the intended task. Add in a margin of safety, for sure, but not build something for rock racing when all that's required is a reliable overland vehicle.

I realize that some of the advice may seem like it contradicts itself, but actually is pretty linear from my (skewed) view.
- You can run the stock axles/carrier, but you certainly would want to carry spare shafts and be otherwise prepared for occasional breakage.
- You can upgrade to an ARB with the stock shafts, but carry multiple sets of axle shafts.
- You can upgrade the carrier (open) and shafts to 24 spline, and it's doubtful you will break anything with overlanding use.
- You can install a rear ARB and upgrade the rest to 24 spline, and probably not break anything with overlanding use/moderate wheeling.
- You can install ARBs front and rear with 24 spline shafts, and it's possible that you could break a ring/pinion (a lot depends on the ratio/quality of gearset and how the lockers are used) in more rigorous wheeling.
- You can install Toyota 3rd members (open or e-locker) and be pretty darn secure up to hardcore rockcrawling.

Figure out where you fit in that scale, and you should be good.

 

[Mercedesrover]

- You can run the stock axles/carrier, but you certainly would want to carry spare shafts and be otherwise prepared for occasional breakage.
- You can upgrade to an ARB with the stock shafts, but carry multiple sets of axle shafts.
- You can upgrade the carrier (open) and shafts to 24 spline, and it's doubtful you will break anything with overlanding use.
- You can install a rear ARB and upgrade the rest to 24 spline, and probably not break anything with overlanding use/moderate wheeling.
- You can install ARBs front and rear with 24 spline shafts, and it's possible that you could break a ring/pinion (a lot depends on the ratio/quality of gearset and how the lockers are used) in more rigorous wheeling.
- You can install Toyota 3rd members (open or e-locker) and be pretty darn secure up to hardcore rockcrawling.

Figure out where you fit in that scale, and you should be good.

That sums it up pretty well, Mike.

I might add the point that if you're going to make something in your truck unique and/or possibly difficult to obtain when you're out in the bush, make darn sure it's twice as strong then you'll never need. This is my logic with the Toyota conversion. The differential assemblies, although common, are many times stronger than I'll ever need for what I ask them to do. As well, the axle shafts that are for all intents and purposes are a custom part. Being so, I'm comfortable knowing they are intended for drag-racing and I will never have a problem with them.

If you look at Mikes list and figure you'll get away with #2, you should probably bump up to #3 and no you won't have a problem with what you do with your truck.

jim

 

[revor]

Mercedesrover's Toyota 3rd member conversion axleshafts use standard u-joints, so I imagine there are others that are capable of making similar products for the 110.

I do that...:hehe:

 

[Allen Bosely]

Thanks for all the input guys,it has been a big help.

This is my plan, subject to verifying a couple of points.

Geared 4.10 with aftermarket HD ring & pinion, HD 24 spline axels front & rear, HD CVs, ARBs front and rear,sewer cap diff cover and running 255/85 16 tires.

This is the thing I wanted to verify.
With the above combination the only part that can not be replaced with a stock part is either the inner or outer (can't remember which) axel as the spline count is different on one end.

So if needed parts could be salvaged where ever to at least limp home.

This may not be the strongest that it can be built but it would be the strongest with reasonable infield (country) reparability.

Allen

 

[michaelgroves]

This is my plan, subject to verifying a couple of points.

Geared 4.10 with aftermarket HD ring & pinion, HD 24 spline axels front & rear, HD CVs, ARBs front and rear,sewer cap diff cover and running 255/85 16 tires.

Keep in mind that you have a Salisbury rear axle (Series III or pre-2002 Defender), so the robustness of the rear axle is pretty much taken care of without putting in an ARB. It already has 24-spline shafts, and if you think they aren't up to the job, then you can either fit aftermarket HD 24-splines, or carry a pair of them as spares (you probably will never need them).

Changing to 4.1 ratio weakens the Salisbury a little, but IMO, it's still well up to the job - in any case, there's not that much you can do to strengthen it, other than using the best c&P set (the ARB only affects the carrier strength).

Up front, I'd agree:- A stronger carrier (ARB), and better shafts and CVs. It's unlikely that you'll break the crownwheel and pinion in the front, though I really mistrust the 4.1 ratio pinion. It remains the relative weak point of what you are proposing, if I had to pick one. Not much point in pegging a 4.1 - how about leaving both diffs with the stronger stock 3.54 ratio, and lowering your gearing in the transfer box, (if you discover that you need lower gears)?