DIY Composite Flatbed Camper Build
- Thread starter Terra Ops
- Start date
Good catches.
Oof I'll have to double check UV stability. They don't seem to mention it anywhere for any of their products and polypropylene has poor UV resistance without modifiers.
I looked at the repair guide and it talks about needing to heat an iron to 430*f. I think it's because it is a thermoplastic and not a thermoset plastic. I will double check this also though.
Oof I'll have to double check UV stability. They don't seem to mention it anywhere for any of their products and polypropylene has poor UV resistance without modifiers.
I looked at the repair guide and it talks about needing to heat an iron to 430*f. I think it's because it is a thermoplastic and not a thermoset plastic. I will double check this also though.
I called US Liner Co. and got a technical answer. Their products can be ordered in high UV (rated @ 15,000 hours) and low UV (rated @ 5,000 hours). Sounds like I got low UV sheets but the price difference is minimal. Still 15,000 hours / 12 hours of sun per day would only be 1,250 days. I should have asked if painting it makes a difference but it seems like looking for a different product might be my best option.
Edit: Terra Ops it seems like the Vetroresina panels have a gelcoat for UV stability. Nice to have it factory applied but I wonder if I can do something similar myself. Or find a suitable paint. These panels are so hard to source at a good price I'm hopeful I can make the ones easily available to me work.
Edit: Terra Ops it seems like the Vetroresina panels have a gelcoat for UV stability. Nice to have it factory applied but I wonder if I can do something similar myself. Or find a suitable paint. These panels are so hard to source at a good price I'm hopeful I can make the ones easily available to me work.
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rruff
Explorer
Ehh looks like my youtube links ruin the formatting. Ohh well, y'all will live
Thanks for the Everlander links and other info! Just some notes on your build...
The challenge is a good bond to the foam... not the FRP (probably). My experience with epoxy isn't that great. It works it just isn't hard to pull the skin away, but that may be due to the foam being weak more than anything. I tried PLPremium with plywood skins also with similar results. I suggest checking out the Styromax site and videos. As I recall they mention the adhesive they use. One thing to also note is that the XPS designed for panel building has grooves for glue.
Surfboard makers have had issue with gas being released from the XPS at elevated temperatures causing delamination. There is also an older build on this forum where a guy did wet layup on XPS and he got delamination bubbles on the roof the first time he pulled it out into the sun!
Anyway, I knew all this 3 years ago and still built panels using 25psi Foamular. I dealt with the possible issues by edging all the foam pieces with wood to give it more structural integrity and also provide interior hard points, and planned to have an all white exterior to minimize solar heating. The PVC foam will not need this, which will simplify building... I hope.
I made some samples with the PVC foam and carbon and FG layup to test strength and stiffness. I made a spreadsheet to see what to expect. Narrow 48"x4" strip that was 3/4" thick supported on the ends and weighted in the center. With 0.8mm woven carbon/epoxy skins, no problem supporting my weight (180lb) with ~.8" deflection. Woven FG of the same thickness deflected ~2.5x as much which is what I expected. FG of similar consistency is nearly as strong (load before breaking) as carbon, but much less stiff. And it's a bit heavier because carbon is a lighter material.
Then I broke both of them by dropping a big (~50lb) rock on them... doh.
Before I bought the PVC foam I made similar samples with XPS. I marveled at how stiff the carbon was vs FG; the difference was very obvious. I gave it to my 120lb wife to feel the difference, and she promptly busted it by pressing with her hand! Granted she pushed pretty hard, but nothing like my 180lb weight. The foam buckled on the compression side and carbon snapped. Then I took the FG piece and loaded it with a mere 36lb over a 30" span. It deflected about what I expected but then kept going (creep)... and after a few minutes it snapped in the same manner.
My other "scientific" testing is building small samples and whacking on them with a hammer. As expected the carbon seems more likely to crack from this abuse, but only after a few hits in the same spot, probably from the foam compressing underneath. The FG is obviously compromised but the cracks don't seem to go all the way through as readily. Again, there is a massive difference between XPS and PVC... the XPS falls apart easily.
I don't know if you are considering honeycomb panels, but CarbonCore also sells them. As I recall ~$280 for a 1.5" sheet. Do you know where Everlanders sourced theirs?
It's easy to overthink this... but then I hate building stuff and having to do it over. I made a frame mounted camper 20 years ago... in 2 months, under duress in a friend's garage (they wanted me done in 1 month!). I had little knowledge, no one to advise me, no internet to consult, no plans, etc. I made it out of 1x2s with with crappy EPS foam in the middle and 2.7mm luan skins on both sides, then coated the exterior with FG matt and gelcoat. Very glad I used FG on the outside... it was bomber. I bolted the camper straight to the frame ('84 Toyota). It survived thousands of miles of offroad abuse with no issues. Wood is a fine material, you just need to keep water from getting to it. Check out Idasho's build if you think you'd like to do something similar. Really the only reason I'm doing this one different is that I always like to do new things... plus I'm not as poor now, so I can spend more money. I have trouble deciding though, because I'm really not in a hurry...
I hear what you are saying. I'd be curious if the top layer of foam is getting peeled off or the glue is un-sticking. That would speak to whether it was a bond or foam strength issue. I plan to do my first test piece tonight so I can report back in a few days about the cloth backed FRP to roughed up XPS adhesion.
Dang that is some good stiffness. Gives me hope for being able to get on the roof with my 2in thick panels. I actually made a spreadsheet to estimate deflection vs load for a 2 point supported composite panel. I wonder how it compares to the real world. I can share it if anyone is interested.
Everlanders have said they sent other people to the same panel supplier and heard back that they don't take small orders anymore. I've never actually heard them say who it was though.
Glad to hear your hastily constructed setup survived so well. Lol decision fatigue is real when building a van/camper.
I'm very interested in the pour foam I linked as a base for creating my own panels. I'm slightly worried because it seems like it gets more difficult to work with the more you use at once. I'm wondering if I could lay the panels on their edge in a jig that would keep them 2in apart and just dump in a bunch of the foam. Kind of like filling a wall. Or I could have the first panel flat, pour a bunch in the center, set the second skin on top (with 2 in spacers) and weight it so all the excess gushes out the sides. With the pour foam you can get whatever density you want (2lb/cf up to 16lb/cf) and you don't have epoxy costs as well. Very interesting. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Maybe I'll order a gallon of 4lb/cf from that site for testing.
-Derek
Dang that is some good stiffness. Gives me hope for being able to get on the roof with my 2in thick panels. I actually made a spreadsheet to estimate deflection vs load for a 2 point supported composite panel. I wonder how it compares to the real world. I can share it if anyone is interested.
Everlanders have said they sent other people to the same panel supplier and heard back that they don't take small orders anymore. I've never actually heard them say who it was though.
Glad to hear your hastily constructed setup survived so well. Lol decision fatigue is real when building a van/camper.
I'm very interested in the pour foam I linked as a base for creating my own panels. I'm slightly worried because it seems like it gets more difficult to work with the more you use at once. I'm wondering if I could lay the panels on their edge in a jig that would keep them 2in apart and just dump in a bunch of the foam. Kind of like filling a wall. Or I could have the first panel flat, pour a bunch in the center, set the second skin on top (with 2 in spacers) and weight it so all the excess gushes out the sides. With the pour foam you can get whatever density you want (2lb/cf up to 16lb/cf) and you don't have epoxy costs as well. Very interesting. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Maybe I'll order a gallon of 4lb/cf from that site for testing.
-Derek
Perhaps a fix for the UV is paint or vinyl wrap down the road. Couple things I notice about my FRP is rigidity/thickness and glass content. Rigidity adds strength and glass content may be a key to the epoxy bonding. Ruff points out that creating deep scratches with a brush may help bonding, but I'm suspicious that this may in fact weaken the bond. Lightly sanding both FRP and XPS has held up just fine for me.
I agree the UV is fixable. Especially if I get good bonding and the price is right I'm willing to have to get creative in the UV space. I will try the 60 grit scuffing just like you did as a start.
Good news! Went to pick up my 2 XPS 250 panels during lunch and the distribution warehouse had 34 sheets of Foamular 400 left over from a big job. They were only asking ~$46 a sheet (2"x4'x8') so I grabbed one for testing. Seems like a great price for the 40 psi panels. If they adhere better than the 25 psi panels I will definitely go that route. Would rather overbuild it for the small weight and price hit and not risk any issues down the road.
-Derek
EDIT: I bet a vinyl wrap would look awesome and would probably be easy to apply compared to a car with all of it's curved surfaces. Would probably get torn up by branches kinda easily though. Everlanders did an industrial enamel paint. Not the most glossy but it is very durable and inexpensive.
Good news! Went to pick up my 2 XPS 250 panels during lunch and the distribution warehouse had 34 sheets of Foamular 400 left over from a big job. They were only asking ~$46 a sheet (2"x4'x8') so I grabbed one for testing. Seems like a great price for the 40 psi panels. If they adhere better than the 25 psi panels I will definitely go that route. Would rather overbuild it for the small weight and price hit and not risk any issues down the road.
-Derek
EDIT: I bet a vinyl wrap would look awesome and would probably be easy to apply compared to a car with all of it's curved surfaces. Would probably get torn up by branches kinda easily though. Everlanders did an industrial enamel paint. Not the most glossy but it is very durable and inexpensive.
Watersmeet
New member
Terra Ops, thank you for the reply. I'm a bit of a novice so thanks for any patience that is required with my posts. I've build five boats out of Plascore (honeycomb) and wet layup fiberglass, and now I want to build a truck camper. Thank you for clarifying that you are happy with the camper's weight on your 3/4 ton and the way it drives and handles. I misunderstood you initially and thought you were unhappy with the final weight.
My understanding of the Everlander's build is that they used honeycomb, not foam. Did they switch to foam at some point? It's also my understanding that honeycomb provides every little insulation, regardless of the thickness being used?
This is all such tricky business picking the right materials to use. Some say never use 25psi foam and others say it's a great choice. I'm also nervous about building a full size cab-over and not liking the way it handles and drives.
I just got off the phone with Soller Composites and they no longer offer the nano enhanced resin or hardener. So that decision just got simpler.
My understanding of the Everlander's build is that they used honeycomb, not foam. Did they switch to foam at some point? It's also my understanding that honeycomb provides every little insulation, regardless of the thickness being used?
This is all such tricky business picking the right materials to use. Some say never use 25psi foam and others say it's a great choice. I'm also nervous about building a full size cab-over and not liking the way it handles and drives.
I just got off the phone with Soller Composites and they no longer offer the nano enhanced resin or hardener. So that decision just got simpler.
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You're correct. Everlanders used honeycomb and not foam. They tested unkown foams at one point and settled on honeycomb.
Thanks for letting everyone know the epoxy is no longer available. That was on my list of things to check on
Hey @Terra Ops , how much epoxy did use on your panels? I know the total was about 5 gallons but I'm interested in the amount per sq ft or how you made your decision on how much to use.
Thanks,
-Derek
Thanks,
-Derek
If I recall it wasn't that much, call it a skim coat.
Good to know about the nano carbon product. No worries, I only used it in the cab over floor and part of the back wall.
Everything else got this;
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I was hoping for something lighter, but yes, I am satisfied for now. Still think going with lighter guage L channel will make a difference. May also rethink the double layer plywood floor, that thing was HEAVY.
I'm pretty sure that I saw in the Everlander's build that they used 1" honeycomb. Not sure about the R value. I can tell you that I wouldn't go back to a pop up or any type of lifting roof.
After my last camper which had a pop up and slide out, I much prefer simplicity and not worry about additional components that may give issues. A solid insulated box can handle just about any weather. From sub zero temps in the west to 40 mph winds on the beach, I have been very pleased with how well the panels insulate and provide comfort.
Don't be nervous about the cab-over, just don't over do it. My interior height is 6'. The point where the cab over starts is half way meaning 3 feet of height to sleep in. I tried to minimize with the current design, but just a little more for comfort won't make that much difference. My goal is stay as compact as possible on a 7' flat bed. My Tiger was on a longer wheel base and found backing up on the white rim trail to make sharp turns was skittish to say the least. Current truck has the shortest wheel base with the crew cab. Turning radius sometimes makes a difference. Just some random thoughts
rruff
Explorer
It's R3.3/in vs R5-6/in for most foams. Makes sense that it wouldn't be as good.
What do you think about using pultruded fiberglass angle for edges instead of aluminum? I think you could also wet lay the edges and corners if you buy the skins raw (not gelcoated).
rruff
Explorer
This guy did a bunch of XPS bonding tests. My results were similar. There is a shallow layer of foam stuck to the skins when you pull them off. http://shedtech.blogspot.com/2014/12/xps-peel-panel-tests.html
Regarding stiffness, note that my sample used woven carbon/epoxy skins and stiffer foam, so it is much stiffer and stronger than a skin glued to XPS. But you shouldn't have a bit of trouble standing on the roof.
@rruff that is a fantastic post. Very good info about the carpet roller vs woodpecker and sealed vs unsealed. Definitely peels up a layer of foam and not the other way around. I think he only used 15 psi xps though so I am interested to see how the 25 (sounds like you've already tested) and 40 psi do in a delamination. You can really feel a difference in the 40 vs 25 just by handling the raw sheets.
I took some clips while testing tonight. I will splice them together and throw a link in here shortly.
Video:
@Terra Ops thanks for even more insight into the pop-up vs static camper discussion. That's usually the first thing people ask me when I talk about my planned build. "Why not do a pop-up?" "Ohh could you build it with a slide out?" So hearing some confirmation is great
I took some clips while testing tonight. I will splice them together and throw a link in here shortly.
Video:
@Terra Ops thanks for even more insight into the pop-up vs static camper discussion. That's usually the first thing people ask me when I talk about my planned build. "Why not do a pop-up?" "Ohh could you build it with a slide out?" So hearing some confirmation is great
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