Huh, yeah I definitely didn't get the same stuff then. I'll give him a call and see if it's just an unlisted product. Thanks for the info!
DIY Composite Flatbed Camper Build
- Thread starter Terra Ops
- Start date
Huh, yeah I definitely didn't get the same stuff then. I'll give him a call and see if it's just an unlisted product. Thanks for the info!
FYI for anyone trying to go a similar route. Call local semi trailer parts dealers (your local Great Dane dealer or TEC Equipment, etc.) and ask for trailer wall liner. Kemlight, Armortuf, Versitex, Bulitex are some brand names. I have been able to find it locally in California from several sources for ~$1.80-1.90/sqf for stuff that is comparable to what Terra Ops used.
They sell it in sheets (for testing foam adhesion) and then giant 53 foot rolls for when you want to buy in bulk.
Now on to sourcing foam...
They sell it in sheets (for testing foam adhesion) and then giant 53 foot rolls for when you want to buy in bulk.
Now on to sourcing foam...
That is great info, thanks for sharing!
givemethewillys
Jonathan Chouinard
Beautiful pics, looks like you had great weather. My buddy is planning a trip for next week to Portsmouth island in obx, sadly I can't make it. What area is that? Camping on the beach is one of my bucket list things to do.
Cape Lookout. Weather was good for the first day and a half, then the wind kicked in at about 30 to 40 mph. Glad we weren't tent camping. A friend of mine was out there a few weeks back and said it was near impossible to find cover from the wind. Ended up parking next to one of the cabins on the island.
Overall it was a great experience camping and driving by the ocean. Definitely must air down for the sand.
Watersmeet
New member
Hello Terra Ops,
Thank you so much for this wonderful thread! There is so much great information here, and your camper is really top notch. I’m planning to build a truck camper for an F-350 and will begin just as soon as I can settle on which construction method to use. My truck currently has a bed on it but I’ll replace that with a flatbed. I want a cab-over so the bed is always available without rearranging the furniture multiple times a day. I also want to retain some off road abilities by keeping it extremely light. And my final requirement is that it be very well insulated (which has me focusing only on hard sided materials and not a pvc/canvas pop-up style).
You’ve mentioned a couple times that were you to build again you would do things differently. My understanding is there are two reasons to build differently; lower weight and lower cost. As for the weight, it seems there are two columns that when added together make up the total; the weight of the shell, and the weight of everything built inside the shell.
The more I learn the more I realize that a cab-over on a one ton truck is really pushing the limits. Total Composites, for example, recommends an
F-550 for a cab-over built with their panels. So my grand plan is that I’ll give up the interior build for the most part. Rather than making it look like a conventional camper inside, with all the “comforts of home”, I’ll have a couple bulkheads to stabilize flex and the furniture/storage will be extremely light weight modular boxes made of thin 1/4” or 3/8” honeycomb sandwiched with 4oz fiberglass, or something along those lines that will be very very light, or possibly 1/8” plywood on light framing, etc.
I really like the idea of using composite panels. I like your suggestions of using single layer FRP, OC or Dow (definitely 250 and not 150) foam sheets and 3” extrusions. I see Kimbo uses 1” Foamular 150, but their panels are small and don’t seem vulnerable to stress in the same way a solid 8’ x 6.5’ panel is, for example. At the scary end of the spectrum we heard from Andreas at TC that testing big box store XPS sandwiched in FRP in Germany resulted in the foam turning to dust under stress. Definitely don’t want that!
So here’s my question, do you know the weight of just the shell you made?And when you say you would build differently next time how much of that is to reduce weight and how much to reduce cost? And if there are other reasons why you’d build differently, what are they?
Again, thank you so much for documenting your build so well! These kinds of threads are truly invaluable. And your camper is so very impressive!
Thank you so much for this wonderful thread! There is so much great information here, and your camper is really top notch. I’m planning to build a truck camper for an F-350 and will begin just as soon as I can settle on which construction method to use. My truck currently has a bed on it but I’ll replace that with a flatbed. I want a cab-over so the bed is always available without rearranging the furniture multiple times a day. I also want to retain some off road abilities by keeping it extremely light. And my final requirement is that it be very well insulated (which has me focusing only on hard sided materials and not a pvc/canvas pop-up style).
You’ve mentioned a couple times that were you to build again you would do things differently. My understanding is there are two reasons to build differently; lower weight and lower cost. As for the weight, it seems there are two columns that when added together make up the total; the weight of the shell, and the weight of everything built inside the shell.
The more I learn the more I realize that a cab-over on a one ton truck is really pushing the limits. Total Composites, for example, recommends an
F-550 for a cab-over built with their panels. So my grand plan is that I’ll give up the interior build for the most part. Rather than making it look like a conventional camper inside, with all the “comforts of home”, I’ll have a couple bulkheads to stabilize flex and the furniture/storage will be extremely light weight modular boxes made of thin 1/4” or 3/8” honeycomb sandwiched with 4oz fiberglass, or something along those lines that will be very very light, or possibly 1/8” plywood on light framing, etc.
I really like the idea of using composite panels. I like your suggestions of using single layer FRP, OC or Dow (definitely 250 and not 150) foam sheets and 3” extrusions. I see Kimbo uses 1” Foamular 150, but their panels are small and don’t seem vulnerable to stress in the same way a solid 8’ x 6.5’ panel is, for example. At the scary end of the spectrum we heard from Andreas at TC that testing big box store XPS sandwiched in FRP in Germany resulted in the foam turning to dust under stress. Definitely don’t want that!
So here’s my question, do you know the weight of just the shell you made?And when you say you would build differently next time how much of that is to reduce weight and how much to reduce cost? And if there are other reasons why you’d build differently, what are they?
Again, thank you so much for documenting your build so well! These kinds of threads are truly invaluable. And your camper is so very impressive!
Watersmeet, I'm down in California doing a similar build on an f450. I'm going for a custom subframe (like the Everlanders) instead of a flatbed so I'm trying to sell my 11ft flatbed if you're interested.
Have you seen anything definitive that the XPS 250 foam is strong enough? It's definitely more affordable than the 40psi stuff that TerraOps used. I've got some 250 on order to test with 1.6mm FRP sometime in the next week or two. I'll probably make a video about it as a start to documenting my build.
-Derek
Watersmeet
New member
Thanks for the offer Derek. Is your flatbed light weight and low cost? ? I'm looking for an 8 to 9 footer I believe.
I haven't seen anything definitive on most of the XPS, it seems like a lot of experimentation and testing is still in the works. I suppose my fear of XPS 250 is that it would break down inside the wall from being twisted and stressed, not to mention going through endless earthquakes bouncing and vibrating like all hell on the back of the truck any time you're off the pavement.
Another construction method I'm considering is a lightweight stick built frame with aluminum RV siding on the exterior, 2" to 3" of spray foam for excellent insulation, and 1/8" or 1/4" plywood on the interior walls.
It's easy to get dry weights of finished truck campers but I'm trying to learn what kind of weights we're talking about just related to the shell. Like, is 600lbs for a full sized cab-over shell a heavy shell or a light one? I was told that 600lbs is very heavy and that's why a box like that really needs an F-550. But the F-350 has a payload over 5000lbs. And if a 600lb box is loaded with another 600lbs of equipment and gear for a total of 1200lbs wouldn't that be a dream on a one ton chassis?
I'm also considering a hard sided pop up design. Not a clamshell but hard hinged panels that would maintain full insulation when in the up position. I'm not crazy about the effect a full size camper has on driving off road and a pop-up would definitely be best in that regard.
I haven't seen anything definitive on most of the XPS, it seems like a lot of experimentation and testing is still in the works. I suppose my fear of XPS 250 is that it would break down inside the wall from being twisted and stressed, not to mention going through endless earthquakes bouncing and vibrating like all hell on the back of the truck any time you're off the pavement.
Another construction method I'm considering is a lightweight stick built frame with aluminum RV siding on the exterior, 2" to 3" of spray foam for excellent insulation, and 1/8" or 1/4" plywood on the interior walls.
It's easy to get dry weights of finished truck campers but I'm trying to learn what kind of weights we're talking about just related to the shell. Like, is 600lbs for a full sized cab-over shell a heavy shell or a light one? I was told that 600lbs is very heavy and that's why a box like that really needs an F-550. But the F-350 has a payload over 5000lbs. And if a 600lb box is loaded with another 600lbs of equipment and gear for a total of 1200lbs wouldn't that be a dream on a one ton chassis?
I'm also considering a hard sided pop up design. Not a clamshell but hard hinged panels that would maintain full insulation when in the up position. I'm not crazy about the effect a full size camper has on driving off road and a pop-up would definitely be best in that regard.
Well it's low cost but probably not very lightweight haha. It's all steel with a solid wood deck.
Yeah my plan with the XPS 250 is to test for adhesion (can I glue stuff to it after the fact, like cabinets), stiffness (ideally a 8ft long section supported on both ends could hold my weight for roof maintenance), and durability (probably just use it as a doormat for a few weeks or something, hit it with a hammer, etc). Also I feel like starting with a stiff flatbed or kinematic mounted subframe will help reduce the torsion on the body a lot.
I'm really interested in trying out composite panels as it seems like everyone who builds with them really likes the insulation and strength. Plus the whole reason composite panels are more popular in aerospace/etc is because they have better strength to weight than wood. Just my opinion though.
For weight reference, 600lbs would be extremely light. Just add up the weight of the FRP skins and 25 or 40 psi foam and you're already at 600-800 lbs from what I recall (8-10 ft long body with partial cabover). The Everlanders box came in at 2500 lbs dry and that was just honeycomb panels, doors, aluminium subframe, alu external boxes. Then you load it up with electrical, water, propane, misc stuff. So depending on the weight of your flatbed (taking the place of the aluminium subframe for the everlanders) 5000lbs seems doable with an interior. Really depends what you wanna carry and how much a flatbed weighs. Everlanders recently weighed their whole truck at a bit over 14,000 lbs (200X F-550 with 1500lbs of wheels and tires). They are on a multi month adventure and fully loaded though.
TerraOps if you want us to discuss somewhere else just let us know
-Derek
Yeah my plan with the XPS 250 is to test for adhesion (can I glue stuff to it after the fact, like cabinets), stiffness (ideally a 8ft long section supported on both ends could hold my weight for roof maintenance), and durability (probably just use it as a doormat for a few weeks or something, hit it with a hammer, etc). Also I feel like starting with a stiff flatbed or kinematic mounted subframe will help reduce the torsion on the body a lot.
I'm really interested in trying out composite panels as it seems like everyone who builds with them really likes the insulation and strength. Plus the whole reason composite panels are more popular in aerospace/etc is because they have better strength to weight than wood. Just my opinion though.
For weight reference, 600lbs would be extremely light. Just add up the weight of the FRP skins and 25 or 40 psi foam and you're already at 600-800 lbs from what I recall (8-10 ft long body with partial cabover). The Everlanders box came in at 2500 lbs dry and that was just honeycomb panels, doors, aluminium subframe, alu external boxes. Then you load it up with electrical, water, propane, misc stuff. So depending on the weight of your flatbed (taking the place of the aluminium subframe for the everlanders) 5000lbs seems doable with an interior. Really depends what you wanna carry and how much a flatbed weighs. Everlanders recently weighed their whole truck at a bit over 14,000 lbs (200X F-550 with 1500lbs of wheels and tires). They are on a multi month adventure and fully loaded though.
TerraOps if you want us to discuss somewhere else just let us know
-Derek
Watersmeet; Thank you for your kind words.
"So here’s my question, do you know the weight of just the shell you made?And when you say you would build differently next time how much of that is to reduce weight and how much to reduce cost? And if there are other reasons why you’d build differently, what are they?"
I don't know the weight of just the shell but based on the entire camper being just under 2400lbs I would guess around 900 to 1100.
Doing differently would include reduced weight and cost. Also a different floor plan, not that I'm unhappy with what I have, just would like to incorporate additional sleeping and moving the main bed back to the cab over.
Lighter would mean different guage aluminum angle and single weave frp. This too would be less expensive but the larger savings is in the XPS foam board. As mentioned in earlier posts, I think the 2" pink foamular found at Home Depot should work. I would increase strength and density by attaching the outer skins through a grid of connections with epoxy and wooden dowels. Other changes would be to create a sofa that converts into bunk beds, a dry bath, and more lithium.
Regarding your comment about bulkheads and going simple on the inside, keep in mind that cabinetry, benches, and walls also serve the same purpose.
"So here’s my question, do you know the weight of just the shell you made?And when you say you would build differently next time how much of that is to reduce weight and how much to reduce cost? And if there are other reasons why you’d build differently, what are they?"
I don't know the weight of just the shell but based on the entire camper being just under 2400lbs I would guess around 900 to 1100.
Doing differently would include reduced weight and cost. Also a different floor plan, not that I'm unhappy with what I have, just would like to incorporate additional sleeping and moving the main bed back to the cab over.
Lighter would mean different guage aluminum angle and single weave frp. This too would be less expensive but the larger savings is in the XPS foam board. As mentioned in earlier posts, I think the 2" pink foamular found at Home Depot should work. I would increase strength and density by attaching the outer skins through a grid of connections with epoxy and wooden dowels. Other changes would be to create a sofa that converts into bunk beds, a dry bath, and more lithium.
Regarding your comment about bulkheads and going simple on the inside, keep in mind that cabinetry, benches, and walls also serve the same purpose.
"TerraOps if you want us to discuss somewhere else just let us know "
Derek, no worries, this is good stuff!
Referencing your weight / truck comment; My truck is a 2014 Ram 2500 diesel. GVWR is 10,000 with manufactures tires and rims. I found this interesting that tires and rims were included for this rating. I may be wrong, but I think this weight rating is more for the handling of the vehicle. The GAWR is 12,500. 6000 front and 6500 rear. Gross weight of the rig dry and full tank of fuel is just under 10,500. While I'm over the GVWR, I'm under the GAWR by 2000 #'s. My suspension mods make the rig handle as if the camper is not there and the diesel has more than enough power. So what I guess I'm getting at is if my 3/4 ton can handle the weight of this type construction, a 1 ton should have no problem.
There is no doubt that one can build these panels cheaper and smarter than other sources.
One last thought; it was incredibly satisfying to drive along the beach and camp in a rig built by my own two hands. I encourage all those building to keep in mind the ultimate reward is where your rig will take you. Being in and experiencing the grandness of nature puts life in perspective. Something that I think the whole world could use.
I'll shut up now
"Derek, no worries, this is good stuff!
Referencing your weight / truck comment; My truck is a 2014 Ram 2500 diesel. GVWR is 10,000 with manufactures tires and rims. I found this interesting that tires and rims were included for this rating. I may be wrong, but I think this weight rating is more for the handling of the vehicle. The GAWR is 12,500. 6000 front and 6500 rear. Gross weight of the rig dry and full tank of fuel is just under 10,500. While I'm over the GVWR, I'm under the GAWR by 2000 #'s. My suspension mods make the rig handle as if the camper is not there and the diesel has more than enough power. So what I guess I'm getting at is if my 3/4 ton can handle the weight of this type construction, a 1 ton should have no problem.
There is no doubt that one can build these panels cheaper and smarter than other sources.
One last thought; it was incredibly satisfying to drive along the beach and camp in a rig built by my own two hands. I encourage all those building to keep in mind the ultimate reward is where your rig will take you. Being in and experiencing the grandness of nature puts life in perspective. Something that I think the whole world could use.
I'll shut up now
rruff
Explorer
More details? I'm making the floor a structural part, but will still need some pieces that attach to the frame... plus a pivot in the rear. Depending on which F450 you have, flex might not be an issue for you.
I resurrected (and redesigned) my project recently and decided against XPS of any kind. I did a bunch of sample tests and even built most of the shell out of it a couple years ago... it will work, but it's not great. One problem is getting a good bond to the foam (I'm doing wet layup with epoxy). Best method I tried was light sand, clean, then use a dog brush to make fine cuts in the surface. I could still peel the glass away from the foam by hand. Some of the foam would come with it, of course. The other issue is that the foam is just weak. Definitely the weak link; first thing to fail.
Total Composites and Styromax both use XPS for core, so it must work well enough. There might be some magic in the adhesive? The adhesive is at least an order of magnitude stronger than the foam, so what you really care about is the bond. If you do use XPS I wouldn't bother with heavy weight stuff; the structural difference isn't that great. Plus Dow makes Panelcore sheets in 20, 30, or 40 psi so they must figure the lighter weight stuff is strong enough for a good panel.
So what am I using? 4lb/ft^3 PVC foam from CarbonCore. It's like Divinycell, but cheaper (1.5" sheets are still $169 though!). It's structural foam mostly used for boats. It is *much* stronger and ~2.5x heavier than 25psi XPS. 40 psi XPS is just a little heavier than 25psi, but not a lot. So now the foam will comprise ~1/3 the weight of a 1.5" panel. And I paid >$3k just for foam! But even with carbon/epoxy skins I should be <$7k total for the shell. I figure in the grand scheme of things and all the work, no reason to cheap out on it... I'm not that poor.
One thing I really like about this foam is large cells. Unlike XPS, when you cut it you are left with a rough surface that bonds great with epoxy. There is such a thing as large cell XPS that's used on planes, but it's pricey too.
Here are the structural specs for the PVC foam vs the Dow Panelcore 40 psi XPS. Huge difference. Also the R value of the PVC foam is listed as "3" but they don't give a thickness. I noticed that Divinycell also lists theirs as "3" with a 1/2" thickness, so it's really R6 per inch.
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Ahh, @rruff the foam man himself
Foam first: That's disappointing to hear about the XPS. I will try my luck with the Foamular 250 sometime this week using 60 grit scuffing like Terra Ops did and the Soller 820 epoxy. I'm really hoping I can make it work because the price difference is a big deal to me. My FRP seems to have a light fabric on the back so I wonder if that will help adhesion (http://www.uslco.com/download/VRTech_W.pdf, mine is VR2). The line in that about poured foam systems makes me wonder if that technique is DIYable. Maybe do a pour foam and plane it to height with a hotwire? Or constrain the thickness to 2in (so you can bond to both panels on one pour) and let it all overflow out the sides to be trimmed later... I wonder what the compressive strength of poured foam is. Also cost, always cost.
R6 per inch would be plenty on the foam you have listed. Also 40 psi vs ~150 psi wow. That's certainly a world of difference. What does your wet layup look like? Carbon twill? I wonder if there is some way to help reinforce the XPS 250. Maybe the plug method like Terra Ops has talked about but my gut says it wont help more than an inch or so around the actual plug, leaving other sections of the panel to fail. IDK I'm no material scientist though. 3D printed homemade honeycombs anybody???
Also, I believe TC uses PU foam for their panels "High gloss FRP/PU foam core/high gloss FRP on sidewalls, front wall, and rear wall" from https://totalcomposites.com/expedition-trucks-rvs/ .
Everlanders and you (rruff) have both stated adhesion issues with foam. Everlanders provided no details as to foams tested etc. Whereas Terra Ops and Sawtooth Unlimited have both had success with XPS (Terra Ops 40 psi DOW and Sawtooth 30 PSI DOW (probably actually 25psi)). Admittedly Sawtooth had some localized adhesion issues with his vacuum table setup but he is still moving forward with the build. We will see where I come out on all of this. Any idea if DOW vs Owens Corning (Foamular) matters?
?♂️
Subframe: Everlanders shows a picture or two of it in this video () before 9 min is all history (interesting but not relevant to this). They also talk about their kinematic mounting system which I will be doing my best to copy. These are two more videos that show the subframe and . TC seems to have FRP U beams built into their floors which serve as the structural rails.
I have an 165" WB 2000 F-450 so I think I got a case of the flexes. F-450 is identical to the F-550 (in the 1999-200x era) besides rear axle. I think the Everlanders show how much flex the were able to get with a jack in that "most asked questions video" and it was like 4-5" so I'll be in the same boat.
I'm drawing most of my subframe/truck/layout inspiration from the Everlanders and my panel construction inspiration from Terra Ops. I plan to start documenting it on video starting with panel testing. I figure people can learn about the specifics of their truck from whoever but the subframe, panel construction, and box construction is what is so hard to find/daunting. Honestly I thought it was out of my league until I saw Terra Ops' awesome thread.
Probably a really rambling post. I have been researching this stuff for months with only my poor girlfriend and close friends to listen to me haha. Happy to talk with some other people who have done it/are doing it.
@Terra Ops "Being in and experiencing the grandness of nature puts life in perspective. Something that I think the whole world could use." I couldn't agree more! Also, glad to hear you would go back to a cab-over bed because that's my plan. It sounds like you're at a good spot weight wise on your truck. I'm honestly confused as to how the Everlanders got up to 14k lbs but I guess you carry a bunch of stuff when you go out for months.
-Derek
Ehh looks like my youtube links ruin the formatting. Ohh well, y'all will live
Foam first: That's disappointing to hear about the XPS. I will try my luck with the Foamular 250 sometime this week using 60 grit scuffing like Terra Ops did and the Soller 820 epoxy. I'm really hoping I can make it work because the price difference is a big deal to me. My FRP seems to have a light fabric on the back so I wonder if that will help adhesion (http://www.uslco.com/download/VRTech_W.pdf, mine is VR2). The line in that about poured foam systems makes me wonder if that technique is DIYable. Maybe do a pour foam and plane it to height with a hotwire? Or constrain the thickness to 2in (so you can bond to both panels on one pour) and let it all overflow out the sides to be trimmed later... I wonder what the compressive strength of poured foam is. Also cost, always cost.
R6 per inch would be plenty on the foam you have listed. Also 40 psi vs ~150 psi wow. That's certainly a world of difference. What does your wet layup look like? Carbon twill? I wonder if there is some way to help reinforce the XPS 250. Maybe the plug method like Terra Ops has talked about but my gut says it wont help more than an inch or so around the actual plug, leaving other sections of the panel to fail. IDK I'm no material scientist though. 3D printed homemade honeycombs anybody???
Also, I believe TC uses PU foam for their panels "High gloss FRP/PU foam core/high gloss FRP on sidewalls, front wall, and rear wall" from https://totalcomposites.com/expedition-trucks-rvs/ .
Everlanders and you (rruff) have both stated adhesion issues with foam. Everlanders provided no details as to foams tested etc. Whereas Terra Ops and Sawtooth Unlimited have both had success with XPS (Terra Ops 40 psi DOW and Sawtooth 30 PSI DOW (probably actually 25psi)). Admittedly Sawtooth had some localized adhesion issues with his vacuum table setup but he is still moving forward with the build. We will see where I come out on all of this. Any idea if DOW vs Owens Corning (Foamular) matters?
?♂️
Subframe: Everlanders shows a picture or two of it in this video () before 9 min is all history (interesting but not relevant to this). They also talk about their kinematic mounting system which I will be doing my best to copy
. These are two more videos that show the subframe and . TC seems to have FRP U beams built into their floors which serve as the structural rails.I have an 165" WB 2000 F-450 so I think I got a case of the flexes. F-450 is identical to the F-550 (in the 1999-200x era) besides rear axle. I think the Everlanders show how much flex the were able to get with a jack in that "most asked questions video" and it was like 4-5" so I'll be in the same boat.
I'm drawing most of my subframe/truck/layout inspiration from the Everlanders and my panel construction inspiration from Terra Ops. I plan to start documenting it on video starting with panel testing. I figure people can learn about the specifics of their truck from whoever but the subframe, panel construction, and box construction is what is so hard to find/daunting. Honestly I thought it was out of my league until I saw Terra Ops' awesome thread.
Probably a really rambling post. I have been researching this stuff for months with only my poor girlfriend and close friends to listen to me haha. Happy to talk with some other people who have done it/are doing it.
@Terra Ops "Being in and experiencing the grandness of nature puts life in perspective. Something that I think the whole world could use." I couldn't agree more! Also, glad to hear you would go back to a cab-over bed because that's my plan. It sounds like you're at a good spot weight wise on your truck. I'm honestly confused as to how the Everlanders got up to 14k lbs but I guess you carry a bunch of stuff when you go out for months.
-Derek
Ehh looks like my youtube links ruin the formatting. Ohh well, y'all will live
I'm thinking pour foam could be really interesting with the VR2 cloth backed FRP. 2lb/f^3 density, 40 psi compressive. 3lb/f^3, 60 psi compressive. http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html
Just 3d print some 2 inch spacers that get casted in with the foam and damn the edges so it fills the cavity between the panels completely. Thoughts?
-Derek
Just 3d print some 2 inch spacers that get casted in with the foam and damn the edges so it fills the cavity between the panels completely. Thoughts?
-Derek