Does the Second Amendment give individuals the right to bear arms?

[FellowTraveler]

We do have the right to "keep and bear small arms that are identical to those carried by our military today."

There is existing Federal policy, administered by the BATF, that allows any of us (albeit dependent upon ones local residence), after LE review, submitting specific documents for BATF review, and paying an additional tax to own fully automatic weapons, "any other weapons," and destructive devices.

Sad part is we still can't own our own Tomahawk Cruise Missle, though.

"NO private American citizens are not allowed to have full auto military/militia arms manufactured after MAY 1986" signed into law by Ronald Regan, so they can't possess arms that the current military/para-military (LEO's) entities have under BATF rules!

Lets examine the other way to possess full auto weapons produced before MAY 1986 THE EASY WAY! Any corporation or trust can possess such arms without any permission slip being signed by the local chief law enforcement officer, no finger prints needed, no photos needed, no background check needed just payment of the TAX is required!

NOW, I ask what kind of government would do such a thing while denying the private citizen the same right?

 

[Ray_G]

One that tries to allow for relatively free commerce while still being rational? I enjoy my freedoms & firearms but think the logical extrapolation of 2nd amendment rights doesn't include light/medium/heavy machine guns, rocket/grenade launchers, mortars, etc. Afterall the founding fathers wrote at a time where civilian & military small arms were roughly identical. The industrial age changed all that and to argue that an in-interpreted 2nd amendment is absolute is absurd; where does it stop? Ballistic missiles? Nuclear weapons?

As is NFA rules are still basking in obsolescence but make an attempt, albeit poorly, at reasonable.

Then again Iraq and Afghanistan has made me fairly unconcerned about untrained persons with small arms. It's IEDs & RPGs that concern me. Still don't want the airsoft superhero next door having a run away M249 b/c he's exercising freedom.

But I'm jaded.
R-
Ray

 

[2025 deleted member]

I think some of these topics are here just to stir ******** up. Too many opinions to work!

 

[TangoBlue]

"NO private American citizens are not allowed to have full auto military/militia arms manufactured after MAY 1986" signed into law by Ronald Regan, so they can't possess arms that the current military/para-military (LEO's) entities have under BATF rules!

No, you are wrong. Private citizens can possess automatic weapons. All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain approval from the BATF, obtain a signature from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) who is the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and fingerprints, fully register the firearm, receive BATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax.

 

[RKBA]

Actually he is right. He was referring to machine guns manufactured AFTER May 1986.

Any full auto weapon a private citizen can own today had to be on the registration BEFORE that date. Hence the price of such guns. Simple supply and demand. High demand same supply.

 

[2025 deleted member]

You can go down and buy NEW full auto weapons right now at the gun stores, after you jump thru the requirements.

 

[RKBA]

It might be "New" as in ufired but it is NOT newly manufacturered. Once again, Private citizens can ONLY own Machine Guns manufactured AND registered before May 1986. I'm sorry but these are the facts.

Note: I am not just repeating what "I heard at the gunshow". I am a Type 07 FFL with SOT Status. This is my business and I know the law.

 

[2025 deleted member]

What about semi to full auto conversions? Are those pre 86 as well? Just curious

 

[FellowTraveler]

Thank you!

It might be "New" as in ufired but it is NOT newly manufacturered. Once again, Private citizens can ONLY own Machine Guns manufactured AND registered before May 1986. I'm sorry but these are the facts.

Note: I am not just repeating what "I heard at the gunshow". I am a Type 07 FFL with SOT Status. This is my business and I know the law.

I was an 03 FFL dealer for a long time, and found that the corporate or trust avenue is the only way to get around anti-gun LEO types who refuse to sign NFA paperwork for law abiding private American citizens.

 

[FellowTraveler]

No, you are wrong. Private citizens can possess automatic weapons. All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain approval from the BATF, obtain a signature from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) who is the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and fingerprints, fully register the firearm, receive BATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax.

You need to re-read my post!

 

[FellowTraveler]

I think some of these topics are here just to stir ******** up. Too many opinions to work!

Nope, this topic is not intended to incite or stir up poop, the private American citizens need to know the facts not some opinion.

 

[Fireman78]

I have a dozen or so guns. They are mine and nobody will take them.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[RKBA]

What about semi to full auto conversions? Are those pre 86 as well? Just curious

Sadly yes. Converting an existing firearm is considered "Manufacturing a Machin Gun" and is prohibited for private individuals.

Back in the day (Pre 5/86), a person could fill out a Form 1 (application to make and register a firearm), and jump through all the hoops and staple a $200 check to the paperwork and in a few months the form would be returned with the Tax Stamp affixed. Once that happened, you could legally convert the weapon to full auto.

Now the Form 1 can only be used by private individuals for Short Barreled Rifles (SBR), Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS), Any other Weapon (AOW) etc. I even have a friend who has a Form 1 (Destructive Device) 60mm fully functional Morter!

 

[RKBA]

I was an 03 FFL dealer for a long time, and found that the corporate or trust avenue is the only way to get around anti-gun LEO types who refuse to sign NFA paperwork for law abiding private American citizens.

To be technical a 03 FFL is a "Collector" license, not a "Dealer" license. There are guys out there who have gotten into trouble selling too many weapons obtained with their C&R license.

I am not against the trust route but we usually advise our customers to transfer/build their NFA items in their own name whenever possible. I don't want this to turn into a discussion of the intricacies of ATF application procedures but remember this.... The Second Ammendment guarantees the right of PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, not corporations. A simple stroke of the pen could nullify all these corporate/trust transfers in a blink of the eye and you would have no constitutional recourse.

Just saying............

 

[TangoBlue]

Actually he is right. He was referring to machine guns manufactured AFTER May 1986.

Any full auto weapon a private citizen can own today had to be on the registration BEFORE that date. Hence the price of such guns. Simple supply and demand. High demand same supply.

I'm not arguing that point. He said private citizens cannot own automatic weapons and the only way to do it is through a trust or as a corporation. That's not totally true according to BATF regulations. Now tell me I'm wrong again...