Don't flame... BUT is the Wrangler the new Defender for the U.S. ???

[David Harris]

The only Jeepers that are worried about IFS are the mall crawlers as an easy, cheap lift will be an issue where it was not before. The ones that actually wheel, are not too overly concerned. They usually ditch, or heavily modify, the factory set up anyway.

Yes. Many serious Jeepers have already built IFS/IRS rigs that are better than straight axle builds. There is an advantage to having huge clearance down the center of the chassis which is what IFS/IR can give you.

 

[roverandom]

But in order to get this kind of articulation you will notice it has a very wide track.

I like the guy who got a JKUR and loves G Wagens but stayed away from Rovers because of poor reliability and fuel economy? That's just too funny.

 

[Blueboy]

I like the guy who got a JKUR and loves G Wagens but stayed away from Rovers because of poor reliability and fuel economy?

and also thought the price of Rovers parts was high? as compared to G Wagen parts in the US. not sure I agree on that one.

he was correct on one comment - the used Defender prices are very low here in Europe and especially GB.

 

[proper4wd]

Pretty sad thread. Rover people shooting down their own brand and Jeep people coming in here carrying the flag to victory.

 

[Longtallsally]

Being a Land Rover owner (2003 Disco with CDL F/R Lockers, 2006 LR3 HSE with HD, 2007 Range Rover Supercharged) upgrading, maintenance cost, and aftermarket parts and equipment are still scarce and expensive. Yes they are more than capable, have a lot of more luxury features for that model year compared to the same model year of Jeep, but the cost of keeping the vehicle running, the cost of parts, etc can be expensive.

That being the reason I also own a Jeep (2012 JKU) Rubicon (Yes I still own my Rovers). I got all options available for that year, Dana 44 front and rear, electronic sway bar disconnect, front and rear e lockers, Rubicon transfer case, rock sliders, skid protection, 4.11 gear, leather, heated seats, dual climate control, towing package, SAT, etc. Yes it's loaded but the comfort level (driving, wind noise, quality of interior, body) is still nowhere close to a Land Rover even the older models.

Why did I get a Jeep?

1. Aftermarket parts and equipment are common and very inexpensive.
2. You won't need much modifications to make it extremely trail worthy.
3. If you do break something you can get it at almost any parts store (NAPA, Autozone, PepBoys etc.)
4. Dealer won't give you the run around about warranty issue. Either they will cover it or not. Land Rover always finds a way to decline warranty work.
5. If Dealer declines warranty at least they won't rape you on parts and labor cost.
6. Lots of independent Jeep specialty shops that compete against each other so if you want to put lifts, larger tires, bigger engine, DTD suspension, coilovers, etc.
7. You won't pack as much Land Rover parts as camping gear to Overland and off-road.
8. Head Gasket issue? 180 degree thermostat, drive shaft that can take out your transmission if you don't grease it.
9. You can wheel with doors and top off (some people don't care)
10. Floor drains.
11. 35" and up tires without having to cut fenders and do serious lift modification.
12. Available full body armor and cage for less money than a used LR3

Will I get rid of my Rovers and switch to Jeep? Hell no I still like my Rovers, at the same time I kinda dig my Jeep. If Land Rover castrates the NA Defender, then maybe I'll buy the new Ford Bronco if its available by then.

Well said.

But to be fair, it can't really be an apples to apples comparo with the Wrangler at least- in terms of comfort- based on the fact that it can still have the top and doors removed. It is still a "Jeep" regardless of how much leather (how stupid is that?) and other toys they put in it. Also based on the volume, it will never have the exclusivity of a Rover- no matter which one- as there have been over a million JKs produced alone (also making parts WAY cheaper).

Also, as mentioned, it should not be underestimated the benefits of removing the doors. The first time I did the Rubicon in ours, I based the heck out of it as we left the doors in. The next time, because I could see, nothing. This really does help. In terms of "overlanding" (whatever someone wishes to define this as) it is meaningless, but then I go back to the economy bit.

I don't drink the cool aid everyone whines about with diesels as it is a HUGE trade off for daily driving performance and economy. Our G Wagen for example has somewhere close to 300k km on it, and still gets around 22mpg. The Jeep gets close to 20 mpg at 70 mph. The G can barely (actually I don't know if it can as I don't beat on it) get to 70. Unless it's a more modern diesel (which eliminates some of the simplicity benefits of "older" diesels) it will struggle to keep up and probably still only get 5 mpg better (be honest). The Jeep community has been whining about a diesel for the US market Wranglers for years, but unless it gets 35 mpg, it's kinda stupid for the premium that would be paid for the right. Also, modern diesels are so complex and governed by emissions, that in my opinion, it's kinda dumb. Why not get an "old" diesel, convert it to 100% WVO, and have a french fry factory to keep emissions strong.

I know I'm kinda diluting the discussion and I apologize for this, but to be frank, I guess I'm being a bit pointless as the 2 vehicles really do serve different purposes and requirements- the Jeep just suits mine better.

 

[Omar Brannstrom]

Cool defenders

 

[ZG]

Well said.

But to be fair, it can't really be an apples to apples comparo with the Wrangler at least- in terms of comfort- based on the fact that it can still have the top and doors removed. It is still a "Jeep" regardless of how much leather (how stupid is that?) and other toys they put in it. Also based on the volume, it will never have the exclusivity of a Rover- no matter which one- as there have been over a million JKs produced alone (also making parts WAY cheaper).

Also, as mentioned, it should not be underestimated the benefits of removing the doors. The first time I did the Rubicon in ours, I based the heck out of it as we left the doors in. The next time, because I could see, nothing. This really does help. In terms of "overlanding" (whatever someone wishes to define this as) it is meaningless, but then I go back to the economy bit.

I don't drink the cool aid everyone whines about with diesels as it is a HUGE trade off for daily driving performance and economy. Our G Wagen for example has somewhere close to 300k km on it, and still gets around 22mpg. The Jeep gets close to 20 mpg at 70 mph. The G can barely (actually I don't know if it can as I don't beat on it) get to 70. Unless it's a more modern diesel (which eliminates some of the simplicity benefits of "older" diesels) it will struggle to keep up and probably still only get 5 mpg better (be honest). The Jeep community has been whining about a diesel for the US market Wranglers for years, but unless it gets 35 mpg, it's kinda stupid for the premium that would be paid for the right. Also, modern diesels are so complex and governed by emissions, that in my opinion, it's kinda dumb. Why not get an "old" diesel, convert it to 100% WVO, and have a french fry factory to keep emissions strong.

I know I'm kinda diluting the discussion and I apologize for this, but to be frank, I guess I'm being a bit pointless as the 2 vehicles really do serve different purposes and requirements- the Jeep just suits mine better.

The 2.2 and 2.4 Tdci engines in the new pumas will do 90mph+ with ease, and still turn 25+mpg. Granted they are newer, but they give the power and mileage required now-a-days.

 

[optimusprime]

I mean no disrespect here, but looking at it from Land Rovers point of view, why would they go thru the process of having to get a model approved,and meet the relevant euro requirement, then have to build a separate version that has different suspension just because a group of people in North America want to go rock crawling.
As much as I'd like them to produce a defender on steriods,that could 'take on the world' it at gonna happen.
Remember cars are designed by accountants nowadays,rather than engineers.

 

[optimusprime]

and it was free.

even then, a defender is an ergonomic nightmare with 1940"s cockpit proportions. put the average person that doesnt know **** or have some odd emotional attachment to 4x4's in the drivers seat and ask them which one they think costs more, or they would want and now youre dividing into zero.

My heart will always buy another 110 ,but my head knows that being over 6ft tall and well built .... Ok a fat bloke .... Living with one on a daily basis is literally a pain in the neck.
I'm looking at Disco 2's instead.

And defenders aren't that cheap here either, you can get a newer, better equipped,low mileage Disco2 for less money.

 

[Eniam17]

Pretty sad thread. Rover people shooting down their own brand and Jeep people coming in here carrying the flag to victory.

X2 on this. These threads are depressing and a lot of you are just looking for something to complain about. I bet75% of people b***hing about the new rover models on here have never done anything off-road that a stock lr3/4 or l322 couldn't handle.

2 points:
Few of us if any on here are JLR's target market anymore so we can either spend our lives crapping on the brand or get over ourselves and go buy a4runner, xterra, wrangler, or whatever.

People are acting like rover is the only brand changing as the world evolves. Has anyone seen what the jeep grand Cherokee has evolved into?? A ford explorer? Compare them to their original models and they have done the same thing except at least the new rovers are actually nice. I walked by a 2015 silverado the other day: are you kidding me??? 22...yes 22" wheels, maybe 4" of clearance under the nascar camping world truck series inspired front lower bumper, more chrome than a Cadillac escalade, side steps, street tires, and the worst part is it was a Z71 package which is the most rugged one they make now!

Our issues shouldn't be with JLR, they should be with our current society That demands these kinds of vehicles. Like it or not, no manufacturer is going to give a ******** about the .005% of the earths population that wants 25 year old style vehicles . Come to grips with that people.

Do you think Scott Brady will chime in on this thread? No, because he's out exploring the world in his modern land rover that can take him everywhere he wants to go.

 

[GREENI]

I've owned 20 plus Land Rovers... My recent one, a 110.

I know other cars are better, more bullet proof, more refined, less expensive etc etc etc.
I know new Range Rovers will beat a Defender off road.
I know I should have bought a LC
I know the heaters suck.
I know they let draughts in, (talk to any defender owner about one cold hip).
I love looking at your American overland Jeeps.
I adore your Toyota Tacoma and FJ (not available in the UK).
Hey, I even tried a Cummins powered Heavy Duty Ram.

I own a Defender, because there's nothing else quite like them.
I can be driving through rough, deprived estates, or through the West End of London, a Defender will 'fit in' anywhere.
If I was a US resident, I'd buy a NAS Defender in a heartbeat.

 

[proper4wd]

Let's do a case study here.

OR

Which one is more of a departure from the brand's history?

 

[proper4wd]

X2 on this. These threads are depressing and a lot of you are just looking for something to complain about. I bet75% of people b***hing about the new rover models on here have never done anything off-road that a stock lr3/4 or l322 couldn't handle.

2 points:
Few of us if any on here are JLR's target market anymore so we can either spend our lives crapping on the brand or get over ourselves and go buy a4runner, xterra, wrangler, or whatever.

People are acting like rover is the only brand changing as the world evolves. Has anyone seen what the jeep grand Cherokee has evolved into?? A ford explorer? Compare them to their original models and they have done the same thing except at least the new rovers are actually nice. I walked by a 2015 silverado the other day: are you kidding me??? 22...yes 22" wheels, maybe 4" of clearance under the nascar camping world truck series inspired front lower bumper, more chrome than a Cadillac escalade, side steps, street tires, and the worst part is it was a Z71 package which is the most rugged one they make now!

Our issues shouldn't be with JLR, they should be with our current society That demands these kinds of vehicles. Like it or not, no manufacturer is going to give a ******** about the .005% of the earths population that wants 25 year old style vehicles . Come to grips with that people.

Do you think Scott Brady will chime in on this thread? No, because he's out exploring the world in his modern land rover that can take him everywhere he wants to go.

So on point.

And what is there to even complain about with Land Rover? They are building world class 4x4s and proving them by putting them through the historical challenges that comprise their heritage (Great Divide Expedition).

While simultaneously smashing sales records. Making billions in profits (unheard of for this company), surging to the TOP of JD Power quality rankings (another first), and innovating new products every year.

Comparing Land Rover USA to Jeep USA is so futile it's silly. That's like being pissed at Mercedes because they don't build a car to compete with the Honda Civic.

 

[proper4wd]

To add to that...

1997 Defender 90 MSRP: $34k

1997 Jeep Wrangler Sport/4.0 MSRP: $17k

What would make anyone think that the "next Defender" would ever compete with the JK?

 

[dwvninety]

So on point.

And what is there to even complain about with Land Rover? They are building world class 4x4s and proving them by putting them through the historical challenges that comprise their heritage (Great Divide Expedition).

While simultaneously smashing sales records. Making billions in profits (unheard of for this company), surging to the TOP of JD Power quality rankings (another first), and innovating new products every year.

Comparing Land Rover USA to Jeep USA is so futile it's silly. That's like being pissed at Mercedes because they don't build a car to compete with the Honda Civic.

You ever heard of the "Smart Car"?