"Double down or fold" - Part 2 ...

[Martinjmpr]

No, if you don't need one they are a complete waste of money. Even if it cost the exact same as a 1/2 ton to purchase they cost much more per mile they are driven. Literailly every aspect of their ownership is more expensive. The Gov't agency I work for has a fleet of trucks and the 3/4 tons are more expensive to operate than the 1/2 tons.

Right, this is exactly my concern. Not only do 3/4 ton trucks use more fuel, the tires, wheels, and other components are also more spendy as well.

I have no doubt a 3/4t would pull the trailer effortlessly, I just don't know if it would be too big/heavy/wasteful to live with on a daily basis and if I am honest, that's where it will see most of its miles.

Hence, my dilemma.

Besides, today's 1/2 tons do the job of yesterday's 3/4 ton trucks, while riding better and getting far better fuel economy.

I really want to believe this, since it would make my decision easier. Certainly in the half ton range there are a lot more options available to me.

Maybe what I need to do before I choose another vehicle is to rent one and see how well it pulls the trailer up to Eisenhower tunnel and maybe Berthoud Pass as well. I could do that in a long day.

EDITED TO ADD: Are there companies that rent half ton trucks with towing brake controllers?

 

[Martinjmpr]

I am not surprised to hear that your Chevy transmission went out (again). That’s just what they do.

I’m am however, surprised to hear that Suburbans have odometers. I thought they just had transmission counters. You own a 2004 Chevy that’s on its 3rd transmission (that you know of). From there we can all speculate on how many miles it has. The fact that the odometer doesn’t start with a “2” with 3 transmissions is almost criminal.

You installed a new BIG cooler, eh? I haven’t seen the thread about it. That’s good, but there is one other thing you could do to reduce the strain on the driveline: regear the axles. You’re pulling that trailer up into the thin air, up steep grades, with larger diameter tires, stuff loaded in the truck and in the trailer...... if you bump up gear sizes a couple steps, your truck would almost literally thank you.

Factory 3.73's now. What would it cost to gear up to 4.10s? The dilemma here is whether I'd be throwing good money after bad. Might be better to limp along with what I have until it comes time to replace it. After this past weekend, that's the direction I'm leaning.

 

[Todd780]

Right, this is exactly my concern. Not only do 3/4 ton trucks use more fuel, the tires, wheels, and other components are also more spendy as well.

I have no doubt a 3/4t would pull the trailer effortlessly, I just don't know if it would be too big/heavy/wasteful to live with on a daily basis and if I am honest, that's where it will see most of its miles.

Hence, my dilemma.



I really want to believe this, since it would make my decision easier. Certainly in the half ton range there are a lot more options available to me.

Maybe what I need to do before I choose another vehicle is to rent one and see how well it pulls the trailer up to Eisenhower tunnel and maybe Berthoud Pass as well. I could do that in a long day.

Yes, a 3/4 would tow it effortlessly. As would a 1 ton diesel dually. But, personally I think for that trailer it's overkill.

I think most most modern half tons would tow that trailer with ease. Good idea on renting a truck. Best way to find out for sure probably.

 

[ExplorerTom]

Factory 3.73's now. What would it cost to gear up to 4.10s? The dilemma here is whether I'd be throwing good money after bad. Might be better to limp along with what I have until it comes time to replace it. After this past weekend, that's the direction I'm leaning.

$850 plus new bearings. I know a guy outside the Springs who does this kind of thing for a living. He regeared my Explorer and considering having my Expedition done as well.

You won’t get much a return on your newly purchased $3500 transmission if you decide to sell. A 2004 Suburban with a new transmission won’t sell for much more than a 2004 Suburban with a used transmission. Is the warranty transferable?

I’d say at this point: in for a penny, in for a pound. In other words: you’re stuck with this thing.

 

[ExplorerTom]

Might be better to limp along with what I have until it comes time to replace it. After this past weekend, that's the direction I'm leaning.

How will you know when that comes? After how many transmissions do you throw in the towel? What about if the water pump goes out? Needs new brakes? Needs new tires? Where do you draw the line?

Some of those are offered in jest, but like you I’ve got an old vehicle (2 actually). My Expedition has 251k miles on it. It seems to eat radiators- but I think I’ve narrowed that down to electrolysis and I’ve implemented a fix, but otherwise is in good shape. I’ve asked myself that same question before. If a $3500 transmission wasn’t enough for you to punt this thing over, than what is? Sure Vernal is barely a wide spot, but SLC is about 2 hours away- you could have dumped the Suburban in Utah and bought something “new”.

 

[Buddha.]

The first transmission failure isn't really surprising. I had the same trans in a '02 chevy blazer, I never had any problems with it. When I installed a temp gauge I was seeing 220+ degrees in stop and go traffic empty, not towing. The factory in-radiator trans cooler was probably clogged from years of dirty coolant and was doing nothing. It wouldn't have lasted long on the highway towing like that.

The second trans failure is a bit surprising, but if they re-used the pump from the first trans that might be the problem. I rebuilt a 700r4 about 15 years ago and if I remember right(it's a little fuzzy) the pump is made out of aluminum and has some kind of plastic seals in it. Replacement bits didn't come in my standard rebuild kit and I just cleaned the pump and put it back together.

I would expect a new unit would last longer than the first now that you're watching the temps and you've got a cooler on there.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Right, this is exactly my concern. Not only do 3/4 ton trucks use more fuel, the tires, wheels, and other components are also more spendy as well.

I have no doubt a 3/4t would pull the trailer effortlessly, I just don't know if it would be too big/heavy/wasteful to live with on a daily basis and if I am honest, that's where it will see most of its miles.

Hence, my dilemma.



I really want to believe this, since it would make my decision easier. Certainly in the half ton range there are a lot more options available to me.

Maybe what I need to do before I choose another vehicle is to rent one and see how well it pulls the trailer up to Eisenhower tunnel and maybe Berthoud Pass as well. I could do that in a long day.

EDITED TO ADD: Are there companies that rent half ton trucks with towing brake controllers?

I know for a fact that either EcoBoost and even the 5.0 would have zero problems pulling your trailer. In fact either EcoBoost wouldn't give two ********** about the trailer or the altitude.

I have pulled ~ 6500lb camper with my 2.7 and it had no problems going from Alamogordo NM to Cloudcroft NM. The 6% grades simply made the truck drop a gear and spool the turbos harder. It had no problems maintaining the speed limit or accelerating.

You have to realize this the new breed of 1/2 ton trucks are far more capable than your old suburban ever was.

 

[locrwln]

Crappy rebuild on the second trans. You have a new one with an upgraded cooler. Drive it. I know everyone likes to bad mouth 4l60's and they definitely had their issues, but overall, they area pretty solid transmission. My MIL's Tahoe (that used to pull a Lance 22' TT) has 242k miles on the stock tranny and it still shifts like it did new. My FIL just sold his 1500 PK with 220k with the original tranny and it too shifted and worked perfectly. Sounds like you cooked the original one and got a crappy rebuilt one. You don't need a 3/4t for that trailer. Of course, according to the internet, you need a 1ton diesel to tow a 4x8 utility trailer...

Jack

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Of course, according to the internet, you need a 1ton diesel to tow a 4x8 utility trailer...

Jack

?

 

[Ducky's Dad]

And what is this based on? How exactly is the EcoBoost complicated?

Last time I looked the EcoBoost had fewer moving parts than a V8, used less fuel, makes more power, and has one hell of a bottom end in it.

You seem to be an EcoBoost fanboy and that is just fine...for you. The V-6 block may have fewer moving parts than a V-8, but that is only because it has two fewer cylinders. The 5.0 V-8 does not have the complexity of twin turbos and all the associated plumbing. The V-8 does not need intercoolers. The V-8 is not as highly stressed as a twin turbo V-6. Over the life of the truck (not the life of the engine), I think the V-8 will be more reliable. Ford seems to claim the turbos are good for 150,000 miles. That's 8 or 10 ten years for a typical truck. Lots of us keep our trucks longer than that. Have you priced replacement cost for one or two turbos on a 15-year-old truck? Replacement cost (for just the turbos) now is probably $3K in So Cal. In ten years that will be about $5K, while the V-8 should still be humming along with little more than oil changes and belts (which you will also be doing on the V-6). No doubt the boosted engines can match or exceed the V-8s for horsepower and torque, but that is only when the turbos are spooled up.

Time for some basic physics: Horsepower relates to the engine's ability to get work done, i.e., moving a load. If you want to move a certain load a certain distance at a certain speed, you need to expend a certain amount of energy. That energy, in this case, comes from gasoline. Burning gasoline creates heat, which pushes the pistons down. A gallon of gasoline contains a finite amount of energy, and the optimum fuel air mixture to extract that energy is pretty consistent at about 14.7:1. A boosted small engine crams more of that air-fuel mix into fewer, smaller combustion chambers, but at higher pressures. But that does not change the energy value of the gasoline, it just converts it to heat in a smaller piece of machinery. So, in essence, to do a certain amount of work, you have to burn a certain amount of gasoline. If you drive a small EcoBost to generate the same performance as a larger V-8, you will get about the same fuel mileage. The advantage of the smaller boosted engine comes at lighter throttle openings where you don't need V-8 performance. And the smaller engine is generally lighter, so less weight to move around. Is that advantage enough to offset the lifecycle cost of the boosted engine vs the naturally aspirated V-8? For me, no.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glo...nomy-can-be-worse-not-better/article29705614/

Driven carefully, turbochargers do offer efficiency gains. But that efficiency can quickly disappear if you don't drive with discipline. A turbocharged engine turns into a fuel-hog under hard acceleration, because the large volume of air being pumped into the cylinders must be matched by a larger volume of fuel.

Which F150 engine would a Ford Technician pick?
Most of the Ford techs in this video prefer the 5.0 V-8.

I could make an argument to support your position, but I think the preponderance of the evidence relative to the current state of the technology still supports the V-8 for full-size trucks. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

Yeah... the turbos are ~450.00 each and take about two hours per side to replace. Clearly you have zero clue what you are talking about and have absolutely zero first hand experience with an EcoBoost.

And intercooler and all the piping is not only not complicated but they require zero maintenance.

You have zero proof that an EcoBoost engine will not last as long as the 5.0... zero.




But that's ok... its 100% your right to be ignorant and its 100% my right to laugh at you and put you on ignore.

 

[rayra]

Seconding Buddha's remarks. You're starting with a clean slate, a brand new trans AND the phat cooler. AND all that prior towing experience and concerns. Now you 'stand pat' and cruise for years. Stay out of high revs and high temps as best you can and that trans should last a very long time. There's nothing inherently wrong with it (or the 10-bolt / 3.73 ). Our '99 Z71 Tahoe went to ~150k before we traded it in... on an '05 Z71 Tahoe and just sold that last Halloween as it hit 200k mi. My '02 Sub is approaching 150k. That's half a million miles of commuting, road trips, random towing of trailers, uhauls, boats, jet skits. I've only put the last ~25k on the Sub and it was a flogged mom-taxi when I got it. A couple partial fluid changes and the big trans cooler are all I've done with it and I've towed a few heavy-ish loads with it.

The thing for anybody else to consider on a 4L60E rebuild is go for the 4L65E 'heavy duty' rebuild. Really the Corvette trans standard for higher hp and torque. And it doesn't cost a lot more. And I guess now a new pump ought to be a requirement.
If and when my Sub's trans goes, that's my intended repair / replacement / upgrade.

12.3mpg heh, I was just talking with Stryder about that the other day, he got some crazy high MPG cruising upstate at <65mph. But he's got tall gears and pretty much has to keep top speeds down as tradeoff for his off-road performance.
My typical mixed tank is likewise a poor 12.5. My driving is mostly errand-running around town, where I try and keep things under 2k rpms. But on my highway runs I'm a leadfoot. 75mph is typical with hard passing accelerations. And late nights in the high desert I've been known to bounce off the limiter. Comes on just shy of 100mph, and it feels like engine failure because it doesn't plateau, it instead cuts the fuel supply while you coast down to a more reasonable speed. I'm rudely surprised / alarmed by it each time it happens. I make freeway runs NW, N, E of about ~300mi round trip, a couple times a month, then putter around town the rest of the time. Typical is 12.5 when I'm not actively trying to go easier.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

But that's ok... its 100% your right to be ignorant and its 100% my right to laugh at you and put you on ignore.

Seems like you are pretty easily butt-hurt. Make your case with some data.

Re your $450 each and two hours labor, here is some actual data for you:

Here’s a breakdown of replacement part prices we found online (see BlueSpringsFordParts.com/ford-f150-parts.html) plus labor times provided by a local Ford dealer:

Part Number​	Description​	Price​
BL3Z 6K682 E​	Turbocharger – Left​	$793.75​
​	Core​	-$250.00​
CL3Z 6K682 B​	Turbocharger – Right​	$837.22​
​	Core​	-$250.00​
BL3Z 9450 B​	Gasket​	$8.43​
BL3Z 9450 C​	Gasket​	$7.15​
​	Total Parts Cost​	$1,146.55​
​	​	​
Labor​	Time​	Total​
R&R both turbos​	9.3 hours​	$1,116.00​
​	assumes $120/hour rate​	​

Total replacement cost? About $2250 using today’s parts and labor costs.
That data is from September of 2012. Today's cost would be about $3166 assuming 5% inflation.

Ford F-150 EcoBoost Replacement Cost

Every truck guy knows that Ford has the EcoBoost engine and they may know it is just an option on the truck. This begs the question, is it worth it?

tundraheadquarters.com

Perhaps you should get over your emotional attachment to your position and get real.

And intercooler and all the piping is not only not complicated but they require zero maintenance.

That's somewhat like the Tesla fanboys telling us that Teslas require zero maintenance. Until the batteries need to be replaced. Uh Oh!

 

[rajacat]

Here's the latest TSB for the 5.0. If you're in the market for a new F150 5.0 you might want to reconsider. Is it worth the risk for the V8 sound which really doesn't have anything to do with functionality and reliability?

TSB 19-2058.pdf
https://www.f150forum.com/f118/2018-f150-5-0l-excessive-oil-consumption-tsb-2058-a-440924/

 

[Lykos]

How much do you love this Suburban?