Give me the truth, are Land Rovers complete crap?

[Sacmaster]

I've had two Land Cruiser 100 series (currently own an 03) as well as a 95 RRC LWB. I love my Land Cruiser because it is bank vault solid and I trust it to be able to hop in and drive across the county tomorrow without a hitch. It doesn't really have a soul though, and I am ok with that. Here's why:

My RRC was just beautiful. I still think the RRC LWB is the most visually appealing SUV ever made. Driving it was like sitting perched in the turret of a tank, and it just felt special. It was the kind of vehicle that people turn their heads when you drive by, and you even catch yourself watching the car's reflection in buildings as you roll down the street. It was just Paul Newman cool. That said, it was kind of a POS. The electrical wiring was ****. The fuse for the power windows would blow if I pressed the button for the cruise control. How is that even possible? It leaked. The radio didn't work. All of the beautiful wood inside the cabin was cracked. It was a rattletrap. I eventually sold it for 1800 bucks and was damn glad to get it, because every time I drove it, I felt as if I was rolling the dice. It was fantastic for throwing my surfboard on top and going to the beach, but it was not something I was comfortable driving very far. I kind of wish I had kept it.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Surprisingly enough, the history behind that shows the decline in the very two companies who owned Land Rover/Jaguar back then; BMW and Ford, which were both failing companies when they offloaded the LR/Jag brand. Also to keep in mind, when Ford bought LR, they got a deal because BMW couldn't get them to sell to the profit margins they wanted. When Ford inherited the deal, BMW all but gave up on the LR brand with quality control, etc... Then, let's get on board with Ford. Where to start with Ford...........all of those years, they couldn't keep reliability or money in the markets to barely keep the Ford brand running here in America. Find a 4x4 Ford that can take the abuse of any LR off-road that is still running straight down the road. Jaguar had then, the exact same plastic and paper reliability as the American Ford did at the time. Quality control in the European luxury brand under Ford was almost non-existent. They were still using the BMW engine design for years until the Jag motor was figured out.......at least from what I've researched. The BMW engine and electronics was horrible and it took Ford years to get the newly designed Jag motor complete to save the LR brand, one should give them credit for that!

Ford was a failing company during the mid-2000 recession in the US due to mismanagement just like the other brands. Instead of taking a bail-out like Government Motors (Chevrolet) they offloaded people (US and abroad) and assets (LR/Jag). LR then went through almost a complete revamp under Ford in the mid-2000's and then again under Tata motors later on. Boom, the brand has been doing pretty damn good under Tata and I would say that is due a bit to what Ford gave them in the later years. Ford also set up Tata in a sense due to Tata demanding some half a billion dollars to maintain the previous year brands; I guess that was a pretty smart buy-out plan for Tata.

Fortunately for us, reliability has come back, quality, expensive luxury items and massive profits for LR/Jag are looking pretty good. We lost the Defender in the profit battle as Tata streamlines the models of the LR/Jag fleet to only a few models with a million options. I guess we will see what they give us in Defender 2018/19.

Blame BMW and FORD, or give Ford some credit for saving LR..............either way, get off my Green Oval! hahahaha

 

[mpinco]

A review of Jaguar Land Rover quality/reliability is incomplete without a understanding of British nationalisation outcomes.

"The lessons of nationalisation
BBC

BRITISH LEYLAND, 1968/1975
The creation of British Leyland, amalgamating all British car brands in a single company, is one of the biggest disasters in the history of nationalisation.

The company was first created in the private sector, at the urging of the Labour government in 1968. It soon became clear that the sprawling firm lacked the resources to modernise in order to compete with international car companies like Ford and Vauxhall.

In 1975 the government nationalised the firm, eventually spinning off Austin-Morris and Jaguar-Rover-Triumph into separate parts, as well as bus, truck and refrigeration divisions.

But plagued by poor industrial relations and unimaginative designs, the company's market share fell sharply.

The company was initially sold to aircraft manufacturer BAE.

Eventually some parts of the company were sold off, ultimately ending up in the hands of foreign investors, with BMW acquiring Rover and Mini, Ford buying Jaguar and Land Rover, and the Chinese acquiring MG.
Currently the UK is undergoing something of a revival of car production, but it is all under foreign ownership.

....."


Ford actually improved quality with investment in design/development technologies while BMW added manufacturing investment. Tata has furthered that trajectory.

The root cause of Land Rovers poor reputation was nationalisation, which always fails. Today the US healthcare adventure, Obamacare, is experiencing the same outcome. Learn from the past, don't repeat it.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Well said. I didn't want to get into politics but you are absolutely right! Funny how history is written down and we still make the same mistakes over and over; just so happens the next time is usually much more catestrophic.

 

[preacherman]

I am 3 weeks into my first Land Rover so I thought I would chime in. Having moved from several landcruisers and 4runners, the rover is a bit of an adjustment. If you want to get in a truck, drive to Alaska, hose it off and go to work the next day. Stick with landcruisers. But next time you park your landcruiser at trader joes notice how many non-mechanical hipsters drive one.

If you are like me, a gear head who loves to tinker and thinks the journey is the destination, then give the Land Rover a look.

Mine is 20 years old, shows some wear and tear, and leaks oil like its a full time job (seriously how can anything leak this much), but I love it and am happy as a peach.

I spent 30 minutes last night picking 10 year old anti seize out of a water pump bolt thread with a dental pick and thought to myself, "I wonder what all the fuss is about?" But again, the journey has to be part of the destination or it would drive you crazy.

Just my thoughts so far after coming over to the dark side....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[backstop]

If the question is really "reliability versus serviceability" then the Defender (pre-computers) gets the vote for the latter. Sure, it stops working a bit, sometimes, but rarely will you be immobilised, just inconvenienced. If you want or need to fix what's gone wrong it can usually be done with the tools likely to be in the back of the vehicle - no code-readers required.
If you want a vehicle that'll run for a year without ever lifting the bonnet (hood) or checking the levels, buy a Toyota. When, eventually, the Toyota gets fed up with your neglect it'll stop working - just like a Landrover - but be MUCH more difficult and expensive to fix. If you're out in the middle of Africa, it might even be impossible. The Landy, by contrast, will almost always be fixable by a bush mechanic with a big hammer and some native cunning. Been there - seen it done.

 

[PJPR01]

200,000 miles on my 2006 Range Rover Sport...many of them on great adventures and trails all over the Southwest, tons of hard trails, more than 35 states covered during this time, with many a trip in snowy blizzards, icy roads, on the deep sand beaches of the gulf coast and everything in between.

Regular maintenance, replacement of a few air compressors along the way, a couple failed EPB's (Electronic parking brake - badly designed with plastic gears) 2 sets of sway bar bushings, brakes, regular alignment and having the GAP IID Tool, and the RRS has been absolutely fantastic. Still doesn't use a drop of oil, differential have been perfect (fluids changed every 30k miles) and the ZF transmission is bullet proof and paired amazingly with the 300 hp V8 Jag engine. Selling it to a friend of mine this week who had a P38 for many years. The RRS is a truly amazing vehicle...can tackle most of the trails (not as hard as the Rubicon, but Black Bear, Poughkeepsie Gulch, Imogene, Ophir, Last Dollar, Alpine Loops stuffm, White Rim trail, Gemini, and other fun Moab trails, Lake Pleasant to Crown King the backway and tons of others), in great comfort just running a set of 18's with 285/60/18 Nitto Terra Grapplers or Yokohama Geolandars and a front underbody shield (never even ran sliders - just always ran the right line and never damaged the undercarriage), and can gobble up 800-1200 mile days on the highways with no problems - have run Scottsdale to Houston, Denver to Houston, Houston to Milwaukee non stop a few times. It's going to be a tearful separation, but it's going to a good friend, and a newer 2013 RRS will take its place. Now I just have to get some Compomotive rims so I can run the same trails with the new RRS.

Bottom line...a well treated, well maintained vehicle used properly can last a long time!

 

[Victory_Overland]

200,000 miles on my 2006 Range Rover Sport...many of them on great adventures and trails all over the Southwest, tons of hard trails, more than 35 states covered during this time, with many a trip in snowy blizzards, icy roads, on the deep sand beaches of the gulf coast and everything in between.

Regular maintenance, replacement of a few air compressors along the way, a couple failed EPB's (Electronic parking brake - badly designed with plastic gears) 2 sets of sway bar bushings, brakes, regular alignment and having the GAP IID Tool, and the RRS has been absolutely fantastic. Still doesn't use a drop of oil, differential have been perfect (fluids changed every 30k miles) and the ZF transmission is bullet proof and paired amazingly with the 300 hp V8 Jag engine. Selling it to a friend of mine this week who had a P38 for many years. The RRS is a truly amazing vehicle...can tackle most of the trails (not as hard as the Rubicon, but Black Bear, Poughkeepsie Gulch, Imogene, Ophir, Last Dollar, Alpine Loops stuffm, White Rim trail, Gemini, and other fun Moab trails, Lake Pleasant to Crown King the backway and tons of others), in great comfort just running a set of 18's with 285/60/18 Nitto Terra Grapplers or Yokohama Geolandars and a front underbody shield (never even ran sliders - just always ran the right line and never damaged the undercarriage), and can gobble up 800-1200 mile days on the highways with no problems - have run Scottsdale to Houston, Denver to Houston, Houston to Milwaukee non stop a few times. It's going to be a tearful separation, but it's going to a good friend, and a newer 2013 RRS will take its place. Now I just have to get some Compomotive rims so I can run the same trails with the new RRS.

Bottom line...a well treated, well maintained vehicle used properly can last a long time!

:iagree::smiley_drive:

 

[toylandcruiser]

If the question is really "reliability versus serviceability" then the Defender (pre-computers) gets the vote for the latter. Sure, it stops working a bit, sometimes, but rarely will you be immobilised, just inconvenienced. If you want or need to fix what's gone wrong it can usually be done with the tools likely to be in the back of the vehicle - no code-readers required.
If you want a vehicle that'll run for a year without ever lifting the bonnet (hood) or checking the levels, buy a Toyota. When, eventually, the Toyota gets fed up with your neglect it'll stop working - just like a Landrover - but be MUCH more difficult and expensive to fix. If you're out in the middle of Africa, it might even be impossible. The Landy, by contrast, will almost always be fixable by a bush mechanic with a big hammer and some native cunning. Been there - seen it done.

Ummm toyotas are not difficult or expensive to fix.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Ummm toyotas are not difficult or expensive to fix.

I bet the one I rear ended with my Land Rover was! I know my Rover drove away but it didn't....hahaha In all seriousness, my Landy wasn't cheap to fix either but I did all the work myself.

I would love an old school Toyota Troopy 75, just want a Defender first.

 

[ze_zaskar]

Ummm toyotas are not difficult or expensive to fix.

The pre-LC100 might not be difficult to fix, but they certainly are expensive, at least in EU.
LR OEM parts, on the other hand, have very good prices.

Also, parts availability is amazing and I'm not talking about wreckers, but actual new or remanufactured parts.You have Ashcroft for everything transmission, Richards or Marslands for chassis, Turner for engines, etc, etc, etc. Only axle casings or certain body parts are not available newly manufactured (except NOS) I think

 

[toylandcruiser]

The pre-LC100 might not be difficult to fix, but they certainly are expensive, at least in EU.
LR OEM parts, on the other hand, have very good prices.

Also, parts availability is amazing and I'm not talking about wreckers, but actual new or remanufactured parts.You have Ashcroft for everything transmission, Richards or Marslands for chassis, Turner for engines, etc, etc, etc. Only axle casings or certain body parts are not available newly manufactured (except NOS) I think

Toyota is only behind Mercedes In parts availability world wide. I can go to the dealer and still get parts for my 60 series. Try going to a river dealer and get parts for a rrc. I can get an h55 from my local dealer and the transmission was never sold in the us. The 100 series is it difficult to work on. Your arguments are full of holes

 

[XJLI]

Toyota is only behind Mercedes In parts availability world wide. I can go to the dealer and still get parts for my 60 series. Try going to a river dealer and get parts for a rrc. I can get an h55 from my local dealer and the transmission was never sold in the us. The 100 series is it difficult to work on. Your arguments are full of holes

No one here comes to your forum to bash LCs and say Rovers are better. It's ok though, because we don't have any doubts we chose the correct vehicle for our needs. You on the other hand...

 

[toylandcruiser]

No one here comes to your forum to bash LCs and say Rovers are better. It's ok though, because we don't have any doubts we chose the correct vehicle for our needs. You on the other hand...

I never said cruisers are better. No hurt feelings . I like both. Just incorrect info is irritating

 

[ze_zaskar]

Toyota is only behind Mercedes In parts availability world wide. I can go to the dealer and still get parts for my 60 series. Try going to a river dealer and get parts for a rrc. I can get an h55 from my local dealer and the transmission was never sold in the us. The 100 series is it difficult to work on. Your arguments are full of holes

Look, don't want to start a flame war here, but if you read my post correctly I never said Toyota lacked parts availability, only that they tend to be expensive, which in the EU is a fact.
Saying that LRs have very good parts availability doesn't implicate that Toyota does not, simple logic here.

I happen to be a big Toyota fan, only don't have one because the ones I like, 70s and 80s, are too expensive here, as are parts.