How much off-road capability is enough?
- Thread starter Lynn
- Start date
GroupSe7en
Adventurer
2WD Medium Duty Truck
This is a topic that my family has been bashing away at for months now!
Where we're going is all on roads - really crappy roads, but roads, none the less. We want to go back to Newfoundland and Labrador; see Alaska, that sort of thing.
The equation is a little bit skewed for us - living in southern Florida means that you've got to drive a couple of thousand miles of interstate just to get to the start of a trip. At a Mog's 5mpg, that can get expensive very fast - not to mention having to allocate days and days and days to do it at a Mog's pace.
(not trying to slam a Mog - just using it as an example of the extreme end of the off-road scale)
We're seriously considering an Isuzu FTR with a hard-sided pop up. The current plan is to try to figure out how to get a locker onto the rear; 40's on 22.5 super singles; winches (with ground anchor) front and rear (just in case) - and go. We were even dreaming about strapping a diesel 4-passenger ATV onto the back to go out into the boonies exploring.
We did the Trans-Lab last summer in out Ridgeline (towing a pop-up trailer) and didn't use the 4wd once.
The only serious problem with our idea is that we'd really, really, really love to go to Iceland. But, it looks like you need serious 4wd just to go to the store for a quart of milk up there ;-)
Now, the thing I'm trying to figure out is if we could get the running gear from an FTS and graft it onto our FTR.
The thing that we like about the FTR (among all of it's other great qualities) is that you're up above things and you've got a great view. Plus, being above things is a good idea with the way they drive down here in FL.
I'd be interested in hearing opinions...
Cheers,
Mark
This is a topic that my family has been bashing away at for months now!
Where we're going is all on roads - really crappy roads, but roads, none the less. We want to go back to Newfoundland and Labrador; see Alaska, that sort of thing.
The equation is a little bit skewed for us - living in southern Florida means that you've got to drive a couple of thousand miles of interstate just to get to the start of a trip. At a Mog's 5mpg, that can get expensive very fast - not to mention having to allocate days and days and days to do it at a Mog's pace.
(not trying to slam a Mog - just using it as an example of the extreme end of the off-road scale)
We're seriously considering an Isuzu FTR with a hard-sided pop up. The current plan is to try to figure out how to get a locker onto the rear; 40's on 22.5 super singles; winches (with ground anchor) front and rear (just in case) - and go. We were even dreaming about strapping a diesel 4-passenger ATV onto the back to go out into the boonies exploring.
We did the Trans-Lab last summer in out Ridgeline (towing a pop-up trailer) and didn't use the 4wd once.
The only serious problem with our idea is that we'd really, really, really love to go to Iceland. But, it looks like you need serious 4wd just to go to the store for a quart of milk up there ;-)
Now, the thing I'm trying to figure out is if we could get the running gear from an FTS and graft it onto our FTR.
The thing that we like about the FTR (among all of it's other great qualities) is that you're up above things and you've got a great view. Plus, being above things is a good idea with the way they drive down here in FL.
I'd be interested in hearing opinions...
Cheers,
Mark
mervifwdc
Adventurer
Iceland is probably one of the examples where extreme trucks do better. A regular 2wd motorhome can, and have, compled multi-week trips around the whole of the Island, but, only what they call "super 4x4" i.e. high ground clearance 4x4's can go into the centre.
And it also depends on your preference. I happen to be a 4x4 nutcase, and enjoy wandering down the worst of roads / tracks and getting as far away from civilisation as I can. For me, 4x4 is a must, it's part of the fun, part of the trip.
That said, while camping in the Sahara many years ago, I snapped a CV joint in the front axle of my defender, and had to drive 2 days out on rwd. I still got out, just could'nt go some of the routes I would have preferred.
Merv.
And it also depends on your preference. I happen to be a 4x4 nutcase, and enjoy wandering down the worst of roads / tracks and getting as far away from civilisation as I can. For me, 4x4 is a must, it's part of the fun, part of the trip.
That said, while camping in the Sahara many years ago, I snapped a CV joint in the front axle of my defender, and had to drive 2 days out on rwd. I still got out, just could'nt go some of the routes I would have preferred.
Merv.
craig333
Expedition Leader
Done the same, But without 4wd i couldn't have made it out. Also been stupidly stuck three times where 4wd would have made the difference. If you're like me and just have to see "whats down this road" you need more vehicle. Smart enough to turn around and you can get away with a lot less.
Hi
My U1700 camper Moglet weighs 9500kg and returns 10 UK mpg. It will sit at 55mph just, not on hills though. The speed limit for me where I am now in Iceland is 50mph anyway, same as Denmark, Germany and Belgium getting here. In Iceland its 55mph max for everything smaller too
We have been into the interior of Iceland in the last few weeks, until forecast rain actually fell as snow, drifting in a few places on the road to 4' deep overnight. Since we have a mog naturally we blasted through Hired Suzuki Jimnys and Grand Vitaras just (illegally) drove off the track to go round the deep bits. Only as far as Askja though, further south it got too deep to be sensible for everyone.You can go on a trip into the highland centre in a "super jeep" which some do (maybe those who have only hired a normal car for their trip), one from Myvatn where I am now is 27500 Krona per person to Askja and back (http://www.geotravel.is/). But until the snow that same route (F88 then F910) was full of hired showroom fresh Suzukis on standard tyres. The corrugations are so bad nearly everywhere I'd rather be driving someone elses wheels though! The deeper snow stopped that superjeep shy of where we'd got to on 395 Mog tyres aired down. Much later in the year and I doubt the superjeep would venture out depending what the snow was like. As far as I know the roads do all close in the centre for a lot of the year. Up onto the glaciers would I think be super jeep only with a decent guide.
Leaving the road, wether tarmac or gravel, anywhere is not allowed since your tyre tracks will remain for decades.
So any track designated with an F infront of the number is proper 4x4s only, not a Subaru for instance, but they are still just roads so no super capability is required. I had engaged 4x4 as a precaution only through fords until the snow came. One track we found by chance and wasn't on the map, and a sign said 35" tyres and bigger only, but fairly standard Landies managed fine that passed us. Off tarmac we are slow!! But then a Landrover isn't carrying a luxurious house
http://www.vegagerdin.is/english/road-conditions-and-weather/the-entire-country/island1e.html
I think 4x4s only on the rougher tracks is so your car doesn't disintergrate on the bumps! Or if the weather turns then you are stuck without decent clearance and 4x4 a long way from help.
There are quite a few 4x4 pickups with dismountable campers around from hire companies which seem a good idea since camping is cheap and flexible but with enough capability to get around weather permitting;
http://www.holdur.is/en/page/4x4_campers_and_motorhomes/
The (only) ferry to Iceland from Hirtshalls in Denmark has I think 2 fares for campervans, over or under 2.5m high, 2500 or 2000 Euros respectively with a cabin. Not cheap! http://www.smyrilline.com/Frontpage.aspx And the season is really short, maybe 2 months, outside of which the more remote roads will close as the F910 did after we left last week.
Its a truely amazing place though. This current campsite is on a lavabed, theres steam billowing out of the ground a mile away, and hot mud pools 2 miles away, while farms in the south have been evacuated due to the local seismic activity. Some lava is ancient, some near Askja we drove over is only 60 years old, thats young rock! North of Dettifoss is a canyon called Asbyrgi, 100m deep and 500m wide carved out around 2500 years ago in about 3 days after an eruption under the big glacier Vatnajokull caused a big chunk of ice to melt and rush about 200km across the country north to the sea. Seyðisfjörður is where the Europe ferry docks, and has a church dating only from 1922 after the old one got blown away, next to a sculpture of twisted steel girders from a building destroyed in an avalance. Icelands weather website shows recent earthquakes http://en.vedur.is/#tab=skjalftar Bonkers.
Only partly on topic seems to be normal for me at the moment, sorry!
Our trip so far http://www.iceland.moglet.co.uk/
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Tony LEE
International Grey Nomad
It is a long way to go just to do some extreme driving. We went to see the scenery - in a 6.5m Hobby MH. Front-wheel drive Ford chassis. Went around the outside but also drove down F35 top to bottom and of course while we didn't have the major glacial river crossings of the other central highways, we did see a good selection of the interior. If we were prepared to turn around at the rivers and retrace our steps, we were told we could get along a fair proportion of the interior roads.
200 or so km of roughish gravel roads well travelled by walkers and cyclists as well as the occasional sedan and of course the 4WDs with big wheels.
As for them blasting us off the road - local suggested we do what they do. Sit right in the middle of the road until they also slow down to a crawl and then move back to the right with a smile and a cheerful wave. Less chance of windscreen damage that way
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I am thinking of an Alaska trip and making it a big cicrle around the country. Inspired by this site, thank you.
As to the vehile, I have looked at different parts of the world and my intended stomping grounds. When I see pictures of expo locations, like a pick taken near other vehicles, I look at the other vehicles. I look for what the locals are driving.
Looking at the Alaska highway, I see lots of standard 4x4s, pickups and sedans as well as low riding RVs. One car was a dodge colt buzzing along. So,my conclusion is that you can get to most places on this earth by going slower and perhaps more carefully without a 6" lift, lockers and 6 driving lights on the roof. I think the right tires for the trip will be the first thing to address.
I have decided that if there is a hill of rocks I need to go up and see what's over that hill, I can climb it, or ride my dual sport, I don't "need" to take my F-150 up there. In stock condition, it will already take me many places a dodge colt can't go.
So IMO, it depends on what your "needs" really are. Doing a little terrain intelligence and recon work of the areas you want to travel will tell you alot. :ylsmoke:
As to the vehile, I have looked at different parts of the world and my intended stomping grounds. When I see pictures of expo locations, like a pick taken near other vehicles, I look at the other vehicles. I look for what the locals are driving.
Looking at the Alaska highway, I see lots of standard 4x4s, pickups and sedans as well as low riding RVs. One car was a dodge colt buzzing along. So,my conclusion is that you can get to most places on this earth by going slower and perhaps more carefully without a 6" lift, lockers and 6 driving lights on the roof. I think the right tires for the trip will be the first thing to address.
I have decided that if there is a hill of rocks I need to go up and see what's over that hill, I can climb it, or ride my dual sport, I don't "need" to take my F-150 up there. In stock condition, it will already take me many places a dodge colt can't go.
So IMO, it depends on what your "needs" really are. Doing a little terrain intelligence and recon work of the areas you want to travel will tell you alot. :ylsmoke:
bob91yj
Resident **************
That's a great observation!
There was a similar discussion on another forum about vehicle requirements for a Baja trip. I pointed out that the locals do just fine down there in their clapped out '86 Toyota Corolla, with bald tires, engine hitting on 3 cylinder's, and a family of 6 inside. Makes me feel kind of silly rolling by them in my LJ Rubicon with $10,000 in mods to make it "Baja ready".
One of my favorite stories is someone asking if a 2wd full size could get to Guadalupe Canyon in Baja. I knew my LJ could, but wasn't sure how my truck would do if I hit deep sand or a silt bed. Our next trip, we took the truck, made it in 2wd with no problem...just after getting to camp, opening a beer and being proud of my accomplishment, we heard what sounded like a car trying to get up a slick smooth rocky area just as you get into the campground. I took a look down the hill to see what was going on...a family of 8 in a Ford Taurus wagon that had seen better days was arriving...they were laughing and joking as some of them helped push the car up the slick spot. I went for a long soak in the hot tub with a cold cerveza to ponder the ways of the world...
There was a similar discussion on another forum about vehicle requirements for a Baja trip. I pointed out that the locals do just fine down there in their clapped out '86 Toyota Corolla, with bald tires, engine hitting on 3 cylinder's, and a family of 6 inside. Makes me feel kind of silly rolling by them in my LJ Rubicon with $10,000 in mods to make it "Baja ready".
One of my favorite stories is someone asking if a 2wd full size could get to Guadalupe Canyon in Baja. I knew my LJ could, but wasn't sure how my truck would do if I hit deep sand or a silt bed. Our next trip, we took the truck, made it in 2wd with no problem...just after getting to camp, opening a beer and being proud of my accomplishment, we heard what sounded like a car trying to get up a slick smooth rocky area just as you get into the campground. I took a look down the hill to see what was going on...a family of 8 in a Ford Taurus wagon that had seen better days was arriving...they were laughing and joking as some of them helped push the car up the slick spot. I went for a long soak in the hot tub with a cold cerveza to ponder the ways of the world...
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dzzz
™
I'm storing my camper 2500 miles from home (Chicago). Many people in the storage facility I use are not local to that area. In fact some do not even live in the country. There are many Florida owners storing their RV/Campers on the west coast. Although admittedly many are retired and spending the summer in the west.
I'm mostly positive so far on remote storage. It does take more planning. Since my vehicle wouldn't fit on my property at home I actually save storage costs keeping it in the west.
ObGobOobaleeney
Observer
I very successfully drove my 1999 Tacoma V6 xtracab 4x4 off road bone stock for nine years before upgrading suspension and tires, likely locking the rear axle soon. I can't go many of my favorite places without 4wd, and I've tried (got horribly stuck once years ago pushing my luck in that department-- and only lockers and 4wd would have saved me then) I would never buy a 2wd truck, but the big campers are a whole nutha ball of discussion I suppose. Cross that bridge if and when....
GR8ADV
Explorer
Great discussion, albeit an ancient thread. Many times the added off road ability simply allows one to continue, and sometimes continue with more comfort, and less worry. I made a trip to the Arctic last summer on a well equiped moto. Could I have done it on a Harley bagger? Yes, but slower, and I would have had to have been much more carerful, with the terrain/weather dictating the trip. As it was I could blast over the Dempster at 60 mph and catch a pot-hole. I would not have wanted to do that on a Gold Wing. Although I did not crash, the bike is outfitted to survive that (within reason) with extra protection to get back up and keep me going. Did I need it, not on this trip, but like insurance or firemen, you don't need it til ya need it.
On a trip in the Taco last month I came across a huge washout from the heavy winter rains that my stock 4 runner 'might' have made it through. Well maybe, but no way I would have attempted it; I would have turned back. The Taco, with the added off road ability made it through no problems (other than a few pucker moments for me). So the extra off road 'stuff' was well appreciated; not to mention fun.
All my vehicles for 'on road' travel are all AWD/4WD. Do they have to be, no, but be it rain, snow or whatever, I can go where I want, when I want, and the weather/road/terrain does not dictate the call. I can't imagine having to stay put because there is a foot of snow on the road; where's the fun in that! Same for off road for me. Build in 'freedom' with suspension, clearance, tires, protection, traction, etc, and I decide where to go and when. Now add in a RTT, shower, PETT, and fridge and I will C U there.
On a trip in the Taco last month I came across a huge washout from the heavy winter rains that my stock 4 runner 'might' have made it through. Well maybe, but no way I would have attempted it; I would have turned back. The Taco, with the added off road ability made it through no problems (other than a few pucker moments for me). So the extra off road 'stuff' was well appreciated; not to mention fun.
All my vehicles for 'on road' travel are all AWD/4WD. Do they have to be, no, but be it rain, snow or whatever, I can go where I want, when I want, and the weather/road/terrain does not dictate the call. I can't imagine having to stay put because there is a foot of snow on the road; where's the fun in that! Same for off road for me. Build in 'freedom' with suspension, clearance, tires, protection, traction, etc, and I decide where to go and when. Now add in a RTT, shower, PETT, and fridge and I will C U there.
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Can't believe it's been nearly four years since I started this thread.
Personally, I found the old 'expedition campers' forum when I was dreaming about building an RV. And that forum rolled into this one.
Having spent so much time on these forums, I truly suspect that I don't NEED 4x4 for the kind of adventures I want to take my family on. Yet I WANT a really macho go-everywhere rig.
So periodically I pull my 'capable rig' definition down to just a strong, reliable chassis, with 4x4 just in case...
Lynn
Personally, I found the old 'expedition campers' forum when I was dreaming about building an RV. And that forum rolled into this one.
Having spent so much time on these forums, I truly suspect that I don't NEED 4x4 for the kind of adventures I want to take my family on. Yet I WANT a really macho go-everywhere rig.
So periodically I pull my 'capable rig' definition down to just a strong, reliable chassis, with 4x4 just in case...
Lynn
RoosterBooster
Observer
IMHO
good offroad capability does not always demand 4x4 ... or to put it in different words ;
4X4 does not always increase offroad capability
on a SUV or Pickup (that has minimal changes between 2wd and 4wd) it is may not so noticeable as it is with a larger Rig (that is converted to 4wd).
if you need to lift the rig (so the driven front axle clears the engine/oilpan) you greatly reduce offroad capability by raising the CofG.
the driven axle increases available traction but on the other hand also raises un-suspended mass ... sometimes to the point that suspension performance (and comfort) is badly compromised = reduced offroad capability.
this are some of the reasons why i do not plan on a 4X4 conversion on my project rig ...
i do not see the point of lumbering around with a heavy front axle (and T-case) in a high profile rig 99.9% of the time just to have more traction in the .1% of time i really need it.
i rather concentrate (and spend some of the saved conversion money) towards suspension refinement (like first class shocks), good (large) tires, a fully lockable rear end and to clean up the approach/belly/departure clearance as well as adding skidplates where needed.
after all a camper rig is not a rock crawler ... so for what i plan to do i rather have a low profile rig (so i can take sidehill sections without fear of tipping the whale on its side)
and have a comfortable suspension that allows me to keep up the momentum in rough sections (instead of crawling thru it)
however, just my opinion .... others may vary
good offroad capability does not always demand 4x4 ... or to put it in different words ;
4X4 does not always increase offroad capability
on a SUV or Pickup (that has minimal changes between 2wd and 4wd) it is may not so noticeable as it is with a larger Rig (that is converted to 4wd).
if you need to lift the rig (so the driven front axle clears the engine/oilpan) you greatly reduce offroad capability by raising the CofG.
the driven axle increases available traction but on the other hand also raises un-suspended mass ... sometimes to the point that suspension performance (and comfort) is badly compromised = reduced offroad capability.
this are some of the reasons why i do not plan on a 4X4 conversion on my project rig ...
i do not see the point of lumbering around with a heavy front axle (and T-case) in a high profile rig 99.9% of the time just to have more traction in the .1% of time i really need it.
i rather concentrate (and spend some of the saved conversion money) towards suspension refinement (like first class shocks), good (large) tires, a fully lockable rear end and to clean up the approach/belly/departure clearance as well as adding skidplates where needed.
after all a camper rig is not a rock crawler ... so for what i plan to do i rather have a low profile rig (so i can take sidehill sections without fear of tipping the whale on its side)
and have a comfortable suspension that allows me to keep up the momentum in rough sections (instead of crawling thru it)
however, just my opinion .... others may vary
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charlieaarons
Explorer
The speed reduction with a transfer case is an enormous safety factor and traction enhancer.
And if you really NEED 4wd 0.1% of the time (like getting to that campsite around behind that rock or hill that's not visible from the road) you will need it, especially if you get stuck trying to get there.
Charlie
And if you really NEED 4wd 0.1% of the time (like getting to that campsite around behind that rock or hill that's not visible from the road) you will need it, especially if you get stuck trying to get there.
Charlie
RoosterBooster
Observer
what IF there is a sidehill and you tip your high roller on its side trying to get to that campside :ylsmoke:
there is always a "what IF"
not trying to argue ... after all everybody is entitled to his opinion
there is always a "what IF"
not trying to argue ... after all everybody is entitled to his opinion