&*!#@* Hunters!

[lowenbrau]

In Northern Canada we have rules prohibiting folks from hunting for a certain number of hours after flying in an airplane. I'd support a similar, (though shorter) prohibition period following travel in a vehicle or ATV. Around here we call those bad hunters "road hunters" I watched from my deer stand recently as a guy drove onto a well site with his diesel pickup and glassed the hayfield with his rifle scope and then stuck a set of antlers out the window (truck still running) and rattled them! I wonder what his success rate is.

I'm one of those hunters you'll (hopefully) never hear about. I'm all camoed up and in the trees before sun up and after sun down. Except for the political pro-gun bumper sticker and the Ducks Unlimited window sticker most folks probably wouldn't know I'm a hunter. As in any group the bad apples get the press.

 

[Mike S]

I think Scott is spot on... ATVs seem to be one reason tha sport is risk. I realize that ATVs are useful - for ranchers, dog trainers, and others. But to HUNT off an ATV on public ground is less than sporting, and leads to environmental damage the instant the rider turns off the trail. I have seen it many times.

I think licensing ATVs and drivers is a good idea - with a test for proper operation and responsible behaviour. Most states already do this with motorcyles, why not ATVs?

I also think that closures in many areas would improve the quality of the outdoor experience... no ATVs ridden in camp grounds, or in sensitive areas of BLM and national forest lands.

Of course, enforcement is needed. The problem is, how could these rules be enforced?

 

[FortyMileDesert]

Out here (N. Nevada) the intelligence of the hunter or offroader seems to be proportional to the distance from civilization.

The further you are from Reno/Sparks:

The less quad/motorcycle tracks across virgin land.
The less trash = cans, bottles, bullet casings.
The less bullet holes in abandoned cabins and mining camps.

The BLM, USFS, Nevada game wardens and local cowboys seem to do a pretty good job in general of policing the riff-raff.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I think licensing ATVs and drivers is a good idea - with a test for proper operation and responsible behaviour. Most states already do this with motorcyles, why not ATVs?

I've been thinking about this lately since writing my Moab EIS/RMP plan comments. It seems like often everyone hates ATV. OHV drivers hate them because they are not licensed and in the way on signed roads and trails (many of which they are illegal to operate on anyway, being unlicensed). Motorcycles and MTBs hate them because they widen singletrack and damage narrow trails. Everyone hates them because they don't take much skill to learn and drive. During trail (both 4WD and MTB) days we hear the USFS people say they don't seem to know what to do with them. They drive all over the place and do a disproportional amount of damage and illegal trail cutting. So do most states require non-road worthy vehicles, like a dirt bike or maybe a boat, to be licensed? I'd guessed you'd pay some sort of fee, but there's no license plate right? I would think one easy thing would be to make every motorized vehicle user have to get endorsements on their driver's license for the vehicle type. So an ATV user would have to get maybe a motorcycle endorsement to use an ATV. You hate to throw one user group under the bus, but sometimes I think it would be best for the 4WD, motorcycle and mountain bikes (as long as they are lumped in with motorized OHVs) to distance themselves from ATVs.

 

[Wanderlusty]

I've been thinking about this lately since writing my Moab EIS/RMP plan comments. It seems like often everyone hates ATV. OHV drivers hate them because they are not licensed and in the way on signed roads and trails (many of which they are illegal to operate on anyway, being unlicensed). Motorcycles and MTBs hate them because they widen singletrack and damage narrow trails. Everyone hates them because they don't take much skill to learn and drive. During trail (both 4WD and MTB) days we hear the USFS people say they don't seem to know what to do with them. They drive all over the place and do a disproportional amount of damage and illegal trail cutting. So do most states require non-road worthy vehicles, like a dirt bike or maybe a boat, to be licensed? I'd guessed you'd pay some sort of fee, but there's no license plate right? I would think one easy thing would be to make every motorized vehicle user have to get endorsements on their driver's license for the vehicle type. So an ATV user would have to get maybe a motorcycle endorsement to use an ATV. You hate to throw one user group under the bus, but sometimes I think it would be best for the 4WD, motorcycle and mountain bikes (as long as they are lumped in with motorized OHVs) to distance themselves from ATVs.

I'll vote for you if you run for office with this platform....

Seriously, I agree with your idea, and think that there should be special licensing for both vehicle and driver. And while at it, lets beef up motorcycle licensing too, requiring as a minimum the MSF Basic Rider course.

Too many states, including my own, you merely take a written test and a quick 'you pass if you don't fall over' parking lot test. I have heard some riders around here say that their 'riding' portion of the test consisted totally of 'did you ride the bike up here, because if you made it, you must know how to ride' and there ya go!

I prefer the route I took. I bypassed the 'weak' state rider test because I took the MSF, and that exempts you from the riding portion.

I think I started veering this topic slightly off course, but I think it relates...

 

[Photog]

Yet every season it's exactly the same around our house. The overweight guys show up on ATVs, driving up and down, "scouting." Bud Lite cans sprout on the roadside, along with toilet paper filigree. Trespassing is epidemic, as are ATV and truck tracks across virgin desert. Guys with rifles sit on the hillside 200 yards from our house, apparently hoping one of the deer that come in to our yard for water two or three times a day will wander within range.

It is easy to dismiss this. "Oh, those aren't real hunters." Sorry, guys - those are hunters. They have hunting licenses and rifles. They are the face of hunting seen by most of the public. When I hunt, when the people I know hunt, no one sees us because we are quiet, do not litter, and practice our skills far from the sight or even sound of other's houses.

I think the hunting community is far too dismissive of this problem, out of fear of alienating "fellow" hunters. I disagree. I believe responsible hunters should be doing everything we can to drive this mutant subspecies extinct. Confront them, photograph them and report them, whatever. Hunting (much like backcountry driving) is under enough pressure from outside groups; we don't need to be giving those groups more ammunition from within our own ranks.

Any thoughts?

I agree, completely. I grew up hunting in Eastern Arizona. We would talk with the ranchers abount hunting in their area. Ask if all the gates need to be closed (as we may find one open now & then). Ask if there are any problem areas to avoid. Ask if they are having coyote problems we could help with. These ranchers always liked to see us coming down the road, and would come out to greet us and ********-chat for a while. They would tell us about the same problems Jonathan is describing. This was before the days of cell phones and ATV's. We observed a few idiots, and passed the info on to the Game & Fish.

With cell phones, it is much easier to point the Game Wardens in the right direction. We should try to make contact with those that are hunting in bad form. Most of them just need some training. BUT; you will run into a few that know exactly what they are doing, while they are breaking the law, so be prepared for a bit of a confrontation.

ATV's seem to be the modern horse, without all the daily maintenance. Hunting from horseback was never fruitful, for the folks we met; but using horses to get into the back country, then get off and hunt-by-foot, always worked great. ATV riders are like the horse hunters. Hunting season is just an excuse to go ride the ATV, and carry a rifle. I think ATVs should probably be licensed to drive on public roads, and be restricted from single-tracks.

When I was in Arizona, the law was not to hunt or fire a rifle/pistol within 440 yards (1/4 mile) from occupied buildings. Has the wording changed in the last 20 years? Littering is already against the law, as is driving across the open desert. Turn them in, if you see them.

The silent majority needs to increase their influence in the field. Talk with the ranchers/landowners. Talk to the unthinking hunters. Talk with the game wardens. Never, never, nerver give up!! (Winston Churchill).

 

[p1michaud]

Road hunters and ATV licenses

Around here we call those bad hunters "road hunters" I watched from my deer stand recently as a guy drove onto a well site with his diesel pickup and glassed the hayfield with his rifle scope and then stuck a set of antlers out the window (truck still running) and rattled them! I wonder what his success rate is.

Funny, we call those guys "Hollywood hunting"!

As for ATV licenses. Here the rules surrounding ATV's are driven by Province. In New Brunswick, if you own an ATV you have to have a license plate on it (~$50/year) and must registered in your name. If you sell it, you are responsible to make sure that the registration gets transfered to the new owner. You can't drive on or within 7.5 m of a public road, although most cops will not bother you if you are putting along at the edge of the road not causing any issues. Then you have to carry mandatory liability insurance (~$200/year when I sold my ATV 3 years ago). The liability insurance is to protect other people should something happen when you are operating the ATV. Aditionally there are some interesting restrictions on age to operate the ATV. Some good information here: "Off-Road Vehicle Act".

Cheers :beer:,
P

 

[Scott Brady]

You hate to throw one user group under the bus, but sometimes I think it would be best for the 4WD, motorcycle and mountain bikes (as long as they are lumped in with motorized OHVs) to distance themselves from ATVs.

I am in complete agreement, well said.

And I am sure there are many well intended and responsible ATV riders out there, but in my experience they are overall the most destructive and out-of-control group I encounter on the trail. I just hope new controls can be enacted and enforced before that segment brings the whole community down.

 

[Photog]

When I look through my American Rifleman and other hunting/shooting magazines, I see a large number of ATV advertisements.

Exactly where can people use these pieces of recreational equipment responsibly (outside an OHV park)? As far as I can tell, it is just roads and jeep tracks. Why not just drive a truck / jeep / suv? Is an ATV more convenient to hunt from? It is still not legal to shoot from a motorized vehicle, including motorcycles and ATVs.

 

[DaveInDenver]

And I am sure there are many well intended and responsible ATV riders out there, but in my experience they are overall the most destructive and out-of-control group I encounter on the trail. I just hope new controls can be enacted and enforced before that segment brings the whole community down.

I think the point you make here is key and I think the ATV user groups (if there are any) need to recognize that they need to do a better job of educating and enforcing rules before they can benefit under the umbrella from the work done by groups like Tread Lightly, Blue Ribbon, IMBA, United 4WD, etc. to keep trails open to mechanized users. Personally I think Honda, Yamaha and Bombardier need to really step and get these people under control, but as long as Blue Ribbon and the like do the ground work for them without question, why should they? I happen to think Toyota, Jeep, Hummer, Rover, etc. could do a better job of supporting the work of advocacy groups in our behalf, not unlike what REI and Patagonia do for the Sierra Club and the like. But that's a different tangent.

 

[jim65wagon]

but, but, but...If I can't ride an atv how am I supposed to hunt!? I'd have to walk and if I walk I'll sweat and then I'll smell bad and the deer will smell me coming to them and then I'll never get a shot! You may as well take my gun from me! :REOutShootinghunter

Seiously, I, like Haggis, have run off people from land I previously owned. Most notably 'chuck hunters who used the excuse that their Grandad owned the land - 15 years prior! I also wound up posting said land because not only did my barn door get rabbit shot, the fence in front of my house got a high speed round!

No I don't have any answers, just that we police our own actions and try to police others without putting yourself in a dangerous position. Sometimes all it takes is a polite reminder, sometimes it takes a sterner approach.

 

[DesertRose]

To me this is nothing more than the gun side of the 4x4 land abuse issue we see year around...
my answer is simple and cliche..
be the change you want to see...
make it happen...
see it, own it...

yes the person has a gun, yes they are a slob, yes they might be an idiot but if YOU don't do something about it why should anyone else?
If you aren't comfortable comfronting the person then make sure you have all the phone numbers of relevant angencies in your area...and call them! Immediately so they can respond, don't put it off till tomorrow, don't hope someone else will do something, just do it.
Those of you who went to the expo trophy and caravaned out know that I stopped to talk to the family shooting across the plateu...they just weren't thinking and with some calm quiet talking they moved down the road to a hill with a backstop...they walked the area before shooting and thought all was well, simple ignorance nothing more and nice folks....
today wheeling in the table mesa west of I-17 area...lots of shooters, 1 group without a backstop just shooting down a wash..10min stop and talk about all the atv's cruz'n the washes and they turned 90 degrees to where at least they had the bank as somewhat of a backstop...they had never heard the term before
so be the change you want, pick up trash, talk to people (be cool not angry) and the world will either be a better place or you will die trying

Lance, I have to say I was really impressed by your ability to talk with people.

I think you could work up a mini-course for us all to teach how to approach people like this, how to talk to them to get the message across positively.

I'm serious - I could really use some help. I get really annoyed - partly because week in and week out during the hunting season we just get plain tired of trespassers, trash, and stupid behavior. It's tough then when you got a live person to re-find your "calm center" and talk to them in a way that is constructive.

The first thing that always springs to my mind is to say, "Se habla Espanol? Porque hay un senal que se dice 'NO TRESPASSING' entonces creo que usted es de Mexico . . ." [Do you speak Spanish, because there is a sign there that says "no trespassing, therefore I thought you were from Mexico"]

Or

"What is it about 'NO TRESPASSING' don't you understand?"

Or

"The deer around here come in to our water troughs and are tame as dogs . . . is sitting here on a hill, within sight of my house, with your rifle aimed across my yard, your idea of fair chase, or are you a lazy slob?"


But really, Lance, let's get some good advice from you when you come out here for the Tread Lightly training - in advocacy-speak. What works for spreading the word about our messages in light-on-the-land and safety for hunting.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

It's insane not to have ATVs licensed. Right now we're at a total loss trying to report someone we see doing something illegal. "Um, he was fat? And, um, he was drinking a Bud Lite." Doesn't narrow the field much.

ATVs are rapidly increasing in size and weight, and consequently the damage they can inflict on habitat. Unfortunately thay are also increasing in popularity, and we live in a democracy. That frightens me. It means the rest of us must be better lobbyists.

There is a 1/4-mile law for shooting near buildings in Arizona. That's absurdly, dangerously short for rifles of any caliber. And when we see two guys who have already trespassed, driven their ATVs across virgin desert, and are now glassing for deer within 200 yards of our house, are we really supposed to assume if a buck came over the ridge they'd hold their fire?

Forget legal distances. It's just damn rude to hunt within sight of someone's house unless you have asked permission.

The other day a group was walking a hill about 500 yards from where I was glassing them from our porch (I have a laser rangefinder). One of the bozos was using his rifle scope to look for deer, and apparently just look around. That is, point the rifle at something, then look through the scope to see what it is. I'm not sure what I would have done if I'd seen him point it at our house, but in Arizona, the law states clearly that if someone points a firearm at you you are justified in assuming he means you bodily harm. And I do know the drop on my Rigby 7mm with 140-grain handloads at 500 yards . . .

 

[KMR]

Jonathan,
Don't you guys live in a mud hut with skunks in your well?
They probably just thought the place was deserted. :sombrero:

 

[GaryMc]

My unofficial position, as a BLM Ranger, hunting season sucks.
The majority of the hunters I contact are trashing the land with their ATV's (Texas Wheelchairs, as we like to call them ) and beercans. Also,the majority of hunters I deal with are out of staters that have no idea that it's not OK to be a moron
There are the few hunters I deal with that are very conscientious in their actions. I tend to give them hints as to where the game has been.