In Vehicle 12v PC's

[flyingwil]

I am toying with the idea of a CarPC. They way I see it it can have some great advantages on an expedition.

• Navigation
• communication- Web blogs, e-mail, ect
• Digital photo Storage
• Entertaiment - MP3's, XM radio, DVD's, ect
• Documentation- real time documentation with pics from that day

But the problems to overcome are a few, dusty conditions, vibrations and extreme temps to name a few must all be adressed in the build.

I have toyed with the idea of a CarMac, too, the only problem is that the PC platform is about 3 years ahead of the CarMac. There are a few CarMac's out there using the Mac Mini. The biggest is the lack of basic car related software for OS X. The PC platform has a several year head start on the Mac and its larger market share will always mean that it has a more complete software suite than the Macintosh. This is particularly evident in the GPS arena with Route 66 as the only current Mac friendly navigation software.

Other software that is lacking is an integrated front end, a program the pulls control of the various functions together into a touch-screen friendly format that makes control easy and safe while on the go.

With the PC platform, one can skin many features and have them be a simple touch using the touch screen display.

So, With that said, I think it is wise to stick to the PC platform. I am leaning towards a Mini ITX motherboard, with Wireless B, Bluetooth, DVDR and about 60 gig HD, and 512 RAM.

What are your thoughts and oppinions?

 

[kd_walmsley]

Flyingwil,

There are numerous front ends that intergrate A/V storage, GPS, DVD, MP3, XM FM, Bluetooth, IR, RF, LAN, WAN, and VPN using Windows XP OS. A few using various builds of Linux. Windows Embedded and various builds of Windows CE are also being used.

Will you be using a head unit? Does it have AUX in? Using an amp?

OPUS power supplies are the standard for DC-DC. Guards againts transients and load dumps. Very bling bling in a geek way

If you are set on M-ITX form factor, consider VIA EPIA boards. Some run fanless just fine which will help with the dust issue. N-ITX is even smaller and commonly available soon. PC104 is smaller yet and extremely well proven in mission critical enviornments.

Thoughts to ponder:

1. HD temp/shock ratings. Bearings being obviously better than fluid. Travelstars last longer than most. Compare shock tolerance ratings in Gs at 2ms half-sine pulse for both operating and non-operating states. Also compare vibration tolerance ratings in Gs @ RMS in random operating and random non-operating states.

2. Ditch the HD all together and pare down the OS to fit on removable media, CF, SD, MS, etc.... Solves the temp/shock issue. Don't forget removable media has a limitted amount of times it can be written to. IDE to CF adapters are very cheap.

3. Monitors also have temp issues. Usually only problems in low temps, 5C and below.

4. Boot times can be a drag unless you go Windows CE or always on/hibernate state (a battery drain).

5. Don't forget the operator interface issues. Touch screens are a bummer to use on the trail becuase there is no tactile feedback or indexing and you must look away from the road. Dirty fingers will also scratch up the surface very quickly. Consider a hack if you have pre-existing steering wheel buttons or adding your own RF/Girder based buttons. Don't even think about a HUD.

6. Pay attention to the monitor's LCD Brightness w/o a touchscreen and display brightness with a touchscreen. 300 cd/m² being common. An actual, true, fully daylight viewable monitor is around 800 cd/m². Viewing angle is important, too.

7. You did not mention you choice of CPU. Don't forget speed=heat and some processors are commonly believed to not work well with some boards and hardware combinations.

Or...... Just go out and buy a Fujitsu ST 5000 or 4000 series Tablet PC and an Otterbox 4600 and be done with it

Your Mileage May Very,

Kevin

P.S. Cool idea.

 

[+ d]

wil,

the panasonic tough books might offer a more plug and play option. i don't know how much you love building computers (for me a necessity thing)...
i think this PDRC (permanent display removable computer) is kind of promising...back lit keyboard, programmable function keys on the monitor...

 

[Scott Brady]

Check out

http://www.maxan.com/eng/main_eng.html

http://www.xenarc.com/

Over though, my opinion would be to source a ruggedized laptop and use a drop-down screen. It gives you the benefit of the portable laptop as well.

That is my plan, used in conjunction with my LCD: http://www.xenarc.com/product/700tr.html

 

[flyingwil]

Scott-
How are you planning on integrating the laptop with you current set up. I was thinking that by replacing my factory CD/Radio option I would be swapping in another unit with about as much weight and about 1000 times more funtionality for about the same weight.

I have looked at Xanarc.. But this is still the figure out what to do stage.

kd_walmsley (Kevin) has soome good points, and all of which I have pondered.



Thanks for your input!

Wil

 

[GeoRoss]

Hi Wil,

My advice is to go cheap, cheap, cheap. A fully 'field' compatible computer is beyond what most of us can or are willing to pay for.

1. Dust. Dust will reduce the life of the computer. Think static charge build up and fried mother boards.

2. Hard drive disc failures. Most HD's use air pressure to keep the reader off of the disc. Most HD's are not sealed either. This makes them suseptable to dust. In addition, if the disc is spinning while going over rugged roads, washboard, you increase the risk disk crashes with the reader, which will lead to HD failure.

These are the big ones for me. I killed one HD in one field season last year due to head crashes. When I replaced the HD, I was amazed at how much dust had accumulated. I now used canned air every so often to clear it up a bit.

This all said, I can't imagine going out on and 'expedition' w/out a computer anymore. The real-time navigation on a screen you can see cannot be discounted. I'll keep replacing the HD on my '99 G3 laptop, but I'll draw the line at a new motherboard, which will die sooner or later.

Not considering platform (mac/pc) here are some things to consider.
1. touch-lcd screen. This is probably the most useful thing to have. In sunlight, color lcd screens are hard to see and it is often difficult to find the cursor making the mouse difficult to use. Touch screen makes daytime navigation much, much easier.

2. Forget using a mouse. Find some sort of track pad or ball. Much easier to use in a car w/out the desk top. Along the same lines, find the smallest keyboard that you can. With the touch screen you will rarely need them, but they are useful.

3. Access. You need to be able to access the computer. Make sure you have a hub reachable ie USB/Firewire. Even if the computer is wireless enabled, easy access to the CD drive makes upgrades and what not palatable.

I really wouldn't get to hung up on computer speed, memory, etc. If you go with a laptop and an external LCD screen, be sure that the laptop supports operation in 'clam shell' mode. You want a computer fast enough to run your mapping programs w/ ease. You will want a sizable HD in order to hold maps. You want the computer to be serviceable. That is my problem with the Mac Mini. If you use the computer on rough roads as much as I do, I can guarantee you will need to replace an HD as some point. This reminds me, make sure you back things up at home. I back up field notes on a 1Gb thumb drive also. Keep in mind you want the cheapest computer you can find because in my mind they are disposable and it is a waste to buy new for something that will likely be trashed.

Cheers,
Ross

 

[Pskhaat]

There are a few Linux distributions that run entirely off a CD, no HD. Aren't there also few Linux distributions that can bootstrap from a memroy stick. Something to consider?

 

[GeoRoss]

There are a few Linux distributions that run entirely off a CD, no HD. Aren't there also few Linux distributions that can bootstrap from a memroy stick. Something to consider?

The only problem with this is you need somewhere to store the maps and programs. If you are careful with the number of maps you carry, you could use a large flash drive for map storage. Unfortunately I have found it easier to carry all my topo maps and geo maps, one less thing for me to plan.

Ross

 

[Colorado Ron]

Theres a couple options listed here: http://coloradoron.com/applets/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=ec399fb167d60b3355e042d60aa03b22

I personally like this concept:http://www.motioncomputing.com/

 

[kd_walmsley]

Pskhaat (Scott),

Yes, there are few Linux builds that will fit on a CD (compact disk). DSL (damn small linux), a Debian based build, comes to mind and you can even fit it on any number of removable media types. Relative easy to set up. Windows Embedded will also fit on a removable media card, but can be much more work.

A possible draw back to Linux based PC's is the lack of GPS solutions that include routing. The datasets required are very expensive for opens source programmers.

Ditch the HD (hard drive) completely by using a IDE to CF adapter. This will let you plug in a compact flash card where the hard drive was. No more thrashed hard drives.

 

[gcec]

Finally found this for you flyingwil... It's from an old e-mail, so most likely a bit out of date, but I checked their site and it's up and current.

" Dear Steven,

thanks a lot for your interest in our onboard-pc NavComp II.

Our NavComp II is a cost-optimized downgrade of a special pc, made for
automobile-industry and military. In this application the system has
proofed itself a lot of times. We have dropped all the special functions
for to get a pc-platform which is very similiar to an usual desktop-pc
or a notebook. Of course the extreme specifications have remained the
same. In a vehicle there are several options beneath the actual
navigation like mp3-audio, DVD-movies, satelite-communication, email,
internet etc..
Alternatively we also can offer the wellknown outdoornotebooks of the
Toughbook-family made by Panasonic.
But even the CF-29 does not reach the ruggedness of our NavComp II (at
nearly same price). In case of interest in these products please ask for
a special offer.

We ship the NavCompII as a basic system without operating-system (like
usual with industrial pc's).
But normally the customer purchases a operating system (at our own cost)
and gets the system completely preconfigured and installed. The
mechanical installation of the system into the vehicle has to be
performed by the customer himself. Every vehicle is different from the
other and every customer wants to have a different way of installation.

The navigationssoftware TTQV has to be treated separately from the
NavCompII because it may be run also on every home-pc for preparation of
the trips. Also on the way the GPS may be programmed by means of a
notebook-pc. TTQV is able to autoroute trips on the streets too but it's
power lies in navigation beneath the mainroads where common
carnavigationsystems cannot be used anymore. In case you purchase a
license of TTQV together with the NavCompII, it will also be installed
as a service. The NavComp is a real pc and therefore it can additionally
be equiped with every other pc-software like Map-and-Guide or other. In
this case the accoustic guiding will be performed by means of the
radiosystem of the car - like MP3.

You will find the latest datasheet of the NavCompII and a actual
pricelist in the attachment. We also recommend to download the commented
screenshots with the mainfeatures of TTQV from our website.

http://www.offroadnavigation.de/Downloads/TTQV_Overview_1-6.PDF
http://www.offroadnavigation.de/Downloads/TTQV_Overview_7-12.PDF

A fully working demo of TTQV is available at a fee of 15¬. This price
will be set off from your invoice when you are ordering the full-license
later on - in case you will order at Trophy-Tec.
The demo is fully working for 25 days and all generated data can be used
later on. I urgently recommend to purchase the CD as there are also
demo-maps, the unique worldwide locations-database and the manuals as .pdf.

The Roadbookmanager still is a future product. Due to the change of TTQV
to version 3 it has been postponed until TTQV really is in a stable
state. This is fact since some months now and we are working on several
professional fleet-management projects as well as on specialized
functions for tracking of rallye-drivers. Our TTQV is used by nearly all
proffessional rallye-organisators like the Dakar, Egypts, Breslau,
Touareg, El-Chott and so on. Specially the option of generating
roadbooks is interesting for these people but also for organisators of
expeditions for tourists. Another application is the management of
emergency-forces during activities outside the populated regions. By the
received GPS-coordinates of the accident, the system shows the place in
any map exactly and leads the assistance to the location. In addition we
provide alerting of airtransport or similar by email or fax per Iridium
from anywhere in the world. Some of our projects can be found on our
website - unfortunately only in german language until now. But we are
working on it ;-) Please follow the links "Deutsch" and "Projekte".
There are lots of photos too.

Attached you find the actual pricelist (sorry, only in german) and
additional information.
For your convenience the prices of the NavCompII are:

CPU with display and keyboard 4.612,07 ¬
Option waterproof keyboard 112,07 ¬
Software TTQV3.0 128,45 ¬
The prices are without german VAT

These are only the main-items. There might be some extra for GPS,
cabling, maps etc. . We would have to check your special requirements
for an exact offer.
I also cannot name the costs of shipment to Canada.
Of course you can use our TTQV with every PC for programming your GPS
only. Only a minority of our customers really uses it while driving -
demanding a highly rugged hardware.

I hope to hear from you soon.

Best regards

Trophy-Tec
Wolfgang Marxer, Dipl.-Ing.(FH)
Egerlandring 26
87600 Kaufbeuren
Germany

phone: +49-8341-9610943
fax: +49-8341-9610967
email: marxer@trophy-tec.de
web: http://www.trophy-tec.de"

 

[Scott Brady]

good stuff.... I am going to be venturing down this path VERY soon.

 

[DesertRose]

There are a few CarMac's out there using the Mac Mini. The biggest is the lack of basic car related software for OS X. The PC platform has a several year head start on the Mac and its larger market share will always mean that it has a more complete software suite than the Macintosh.

Apple is now shipping the Mini with the PowerPC chip and so you can actually load Windows on it (ick!) but it's true the nav software is still somewhat lacking for Mac. We don't find it to be as much bother (dealing with lack of software, though we've found very little that we need that is not available in Mac) as dealing with Windows crashes and virus software bogging everything down all the time. A plus with Mac, too, is that you get more available memory for your apps because the screen uses partitioned/dedicated memory and it's not sharing.

I would pair a Mini (they will slot pretty easily into radio holes in the dash) with that dropdown Xenarc monitor and a ruggedized bluetooth keyboard and a sat phone link for internet.

 

[DrBeau]

PowerPC chip

Actually, that's what Mac used to use. Now they use the Intel chips that are x86 based (meaing Windows can run).

 

[DesertRose]

Actually, that's what Mac used to use. Now they use the Intel chips that are x86 based (meaing Windows can run).

Oh, duh - sorry! Mistype. They offer several models (I think only the Powerbook 15 and/or 17, the iMac and the Mini) with the Intel chip OR the PowerPC - they're not dropping the pure Mac version, yet, thank god. You can still order the original (but I wonder for how long).