MAN LE180C double cab for a long family trip

[grizzlyj]

I still wonder what kind of attack we want to prevent here.


If it is gas (anesthetic, etc.), then if it's not possible through the window, it will through the fridge or kitchen hood vents or some other opening...

Hiya

You may be aware of this advice from other sources, but I'll post it anyway!

There are quite often stories in the UK press regarding supposed gas attacks on campervans on mainland Europe, with valuables being robbed during the night, no one woke up during the attack and all occupants have headaches in the morning. Police are always called but nothing ever seems to be found.

This possibility concerns many, and in response to this concern the Royal College of Anaesthetists made a statement dated 13Sep2007;


"Despite the increasing numbers of reports of people being gassed in motor-homes or commercial trucks in France, and the warning put out by the Foreign Office for travellers to be aware of this danger, this College remains of the view that this is a myth.

It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether, chloroform or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motor-home without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect on the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a cloth, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray administered directly into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. Even the more powerful modern volatile agents would need to be delivered in tankerloads of carrier gas or by a large compressor. Potential agents, such as the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege are few in number and difficult to obtain. Moreover, these drugs would be too expensive for the average thief to use.

The other important point to remember is that general anaesthetics are potentially very dangerous, which is why they are only administered in the UK by doctors who have undergone many years of postgraduate training in the subject and who remain with the unconscious patient throughout the anaesthetic. Unsupervised patients are likely to die from obstruction of the airway by their tongues falling back. In the Moscow seige approximately 20% of the people died, many probably from airway obstruction directly related to the agent used.

If there was a totally safe, odourless, potent, cheap anaesthetic agent available to thieves for this purpose it is likely the medical profession would know about it and be investigating its use in anaesthetic practice.
"

From http://www.rcoa.ac.uk/patients-and-relatives/common-concerns-and-faqs Link and page had been changed since I 1st posted

In my opinion this is a minority of people alleging they have been attacked in this way to claim for missing valuables on their insurance. The stories always make headlines, yet I have yet to read of any evidence found to prove what had happened. From the RCoA statement above you would think it would be obvious from the smell at least.

Don't worry about it!!

Jason

 

[EuroJoe]

We are going out to Czech look at Tatras in the first week of Jan but I will check out the links and you gave about the new (cheap) MANs as I want to consider all alternatives and they are definately one of the best vehicles for overlanding for the reasons of support and back up etc that you mention.
Jago

Ahem,

Jago, saw your pictures on the tatra visit on flickr, climbing about an 8x8 how was the czech visit? build thread starting soon?

 

[Jago]

Ahem,

Jago, saw your pictures on the tatra visit on flickr, climbing about an 8x8 how was the czech visit? build thread starting soon?

Hi EuroJoe!

Yup that was my wife, our cabin builder Ed from www.overlanvehicles.co and our Tatra contact Malcolm checking out Tatras at IPEX dealers/post production works.....

...we gotta truck :wings:

I won't take over Itinerrant's thread so will start a fresh one but it's all good!

Itinerrant - we maybe able to join you in Iceland! But could certainly drop by and say hello when we pick it up at the end of Feb? :smiley_drive:

Cheers
Jago

 

[EuroJoe]

Hi EuroJoe!

Yup that was my wife, our cabin builder Ed from www.overlanvehicles.co and our Tatra contact Malcolm checking out Tatras at IPEX dealers/post production works.....

...we gotta truck :wings:

I won't take over Itinerrant's thread so will start a fresh one but it's all good!

Itinerrant - we maybe able to join you in Iceland! But could certainly drop by and say hello when we pick it up at the end of Feb? :smiley_drive:

Cheers
Jago

Looking forward to it! :smiley_drive:

 

[Itinerrant]

Answers to a lot of messages !

Hello everybody,

The Opensens family linked to earlier travelled as a four, (and then as a five!), for several years in a U2150L38 Doka Mog

Yes, we were in contact with them once they decided to sell their truck. But I thought it was too small for us. This aside, they seem they had a fantastic journey !

Where they went didn't require inside living, and timed with warmer seasons may mean a big truck while on a trip could be overkill? Add a bit of cold though and different rules apply!

Of course. And as we also plan to get to colder places, I think that a little more space will be helpful.

The only thing he said they would change is build an outside kitchen.

Sure outside kitchen should be great !

Ian U1250 is avoiding a Doka by having his kids seated and belted in the camper which saves wheelbase

Well we precisely chose a doka to have our kids with us during the road drives. Not only do we feel them safer in the truck cabin (with factoy seat belts), but also we like the idea of being able to talk and discuss with them when driving. Besides, the rear bench could also serve as additional sleeping.

Our "small" 2 person camper Mog has one whole cubic metre of outside stuff storage. This is really too small.

We will have a little bit more, but not much. I hope it will be enough. On the other hand, there will be quite a lot of space on the truck cabin roof.

We initially carried bikes, but at the height they were getting them on and off was a real pain!

I'm currently thinking about a system allowing to raise and lower the rear platform that will be designed to hold bikes or other stuff. Once it will be ready I'll surely post some drawings here because I will certainly need advice from more experimented people !

We now also have a frontbumper box

Nice. That's a storage way we haven't explored yet.

What range do you want from your diesel capacity? 1000km on tarmac?

The truck currently weighs ca. 7.8 tons (I don't expect it to be much heavier when fully equipped), drives up to 110 km/h (best efficiency at 90-95 km/h I think) and has a fuel consumption (mixed highway, roads, cities ; no offroad yet ) around 20 l/100km. The current fuel tank holds approx. 120 l, allowing a range of 600 km. The builder expects us to put an additional bigger tank to reach a total capacity of about 400 liters. So we would have a range of about 2000 km on tarmac. I guess we would have half of that in offroad.

Our windows are about 9' or so up, which is OK until you think if someone wants to try to get in they only need to stand on a car roof. Natural light is good though!

You're right. We're not particularly afraid.

Further to the suggestion of extending the bunk access ladder to the ceiling, again from the Unicat site, they have what looks like a floor to ceiling radiator with horizontal rungs under a roof hatch big enough to climb out of, so presumably you could make the rad strong enough to climb up and out on?

Good idea. However we haven't decided yet whether we will have radiators or hot air blowing. Any pictures ?

I wonder in use wether throwing muddy stuff into a shower room which you then want to enter barefoot and naked is a nice idea, unless you use a lot of water washing the room before you?!

You're right. There's where an outside shower comes in handy !

How high will your truck end up do you think? Ours at 4m/13' is too tall for Europe really, and have yet to take it anywhere else!

I urged the builder not going higher than 3.8 meters, but I have to take the three bunk beds into account. I will have more info about this next week. Of course the truck will be more suited to travel outside Europe... but that's what we want for now ! I think we will keep Europe (where there are also lots of awesome things to see and do !) for when we are retired. Certainly then, without children, we will travel with a much smaller vehicle.

Lastly, I don't think that for a long trip speed is an issue. A few thousand miles to cross to Africa? Take a week or two!

Or a year or two... Thank you for your message ! :wavey:

IMHO 51cm is ok for a passage-way you walk through (like into the cab), but it may well prove too narrow for an opening through which one climbs and immediately turns sideways into a laying position. Now, children will manage to climb in through just about anything, but it seems you're after a bit more future-proofing for when they grow up etc.

You're right. But when the storage will be removed, the passage-way width will reach between 91 and 106 cm.

However some form of railing or other handle usually does extend upwards to assist in climbing in.

You're right, I also think that a handle will be most helpful. I'll think about the best place to put it.

No gas: nice and elegant! Just one more admirable factor in the design.

Thx ! It just requires more electricity power and generation/storage capacities. Thank you for your message ! :wavey:

"Despite the increasing numbers of reports of people being gassed in motor-homes or commercial trucks in France, and the warning put out by the Foreign Office for travellers to be aware of this danger, this College remains of the view that this is a myth."
Don't worry about it!!

Well indeed it feels reassuring. Thank you for your message ! :wavey:

...we gotta truck :wings:

Cool ! Pictures please.

I won't take over Itinerrant's thread so will start a fresh one but it's all good!

Well I can't wait to see it started. Did you also make progress on your plans and designs ? Did you have mew ideas ? I would be glad to see !

Itinerrant - we maybe able to join you in Iceland! But could certainly drop by and say hello when we pick it up at the end of Feb?

Pleasure would be ours. :coffeedrink: Please feel free to send me a PM when you know the date. Thanks for your message ! :wavey:

 

[Ford Prefect]

If it is intrusion, the lowest window will stand almost 2 meters up the ground level and it is only 20 cm in height.

I see. Well I can promise you that I could have gotten into a 20 x 50 cm space in the side of a camper, 2m off the ground fifteen years ago. (now I am not so skinny) People who are poor and desparate can fit into tiny places. I was, however, thinking of something more like 30-40cm in height for your windows, so I see your point.

I also fully see your point about insulation etc. I guess I hark back to the days of riding around in our camper, hot summer days, and how hot that bunk got. If I had a little fan from the outside in that thing I would have loved it.

Winter, on the other hand, no the fan would not have been welcome.

Thanks again for letting us all read up on your build, and poke our proverbial noses into your business.

 

[Itinerrant]

Some news, some questions

Hello everybody,

A few words after the meeting with the builder that I had 2 weeks ago. Well there are good things and less good things. Let's begin with the latter.

1. Due to the hard weather conditions we had here in December, the builder's new workshop where our box was planned to be built is not ready yet, so there is a one month delay and the construction will probably not start at the expected date.
2. Given all the work that has to be done for the box, the build duration will more likely be 5-6 months instead of the 4-5 months initially planned.
3. So there is no certainty that we will be able to have our truck finished for the kids 2 months holidays in July-August. This is really annoying because we planned to test drive the truck at this time. After that, there will only be small 1 or 2 weeks holidays periods to travel a little bit, but nothing more until the big departure planned in July 2012.

All this is a bit disappointing, but we moved forward on some interesting points.

1. To keep the build delay as short as possible (and also the budget for the time being!), we will focus on the main points, i.e. things that have to be done now and cannot be added later. So at first there will be no additionnal fuel tank, no roof rack, no bicycle rack, no protection tube frame around the box and the driver's cab, no winches. All these can be added later without too much hassle I think.
2. Speaking of buget, I think we will have to drop the KCT windows. Of course they're the best, but they're also six times (!) the price of their Seitz alternative. There are two possibilities : a/ we put Seitz windows everywhere (3 for the living room, 3 for the children's beds and 1 for the kitchen) or b/ we get rid of the children's windows and we put KCT windows in the living room and in the kitchen. I think it's better to go for a/.
3. Regarding the master bed, the builder will design a system based on wires and pulleys. This should be both economical and efficient in terms of used space, usability, durability and sturdiness.
4. Heating will be pulsed air, no radiators.
5. Toilet will be of marine type, i.e. with grinder / macerator.
6. Shower tub and bathroom sink will be made of inox ; there will be one big sized (200 liters) waste water tank for toilet, shower, bathroom and kitchen sinks.
7. Passage to the driver's cabin will be secured with a rolling shutter (not a door as previously stated).
8. It seems that sliding doors are quite difficult to design and build in a secure manner for an expedition vehicle, so we will probably revert to more traditional doors (however I'd like to fight a little bit more with the builder for this, we'll see...).
9. The builder is a bit reluctant about the induction cooker and would prefer us to decide for a traditional gas stove but I think we will keep our first idea.

Well, everything is a matter of compromise. :-/ I still think we will have a wonderful exploration vehicle.

Thank you ! :wavey:

 

[DzlToy]

Can you provide a link or additional details on the KCT windows?

Thanks

 

[fuoristrada camper]

http://www.kctechnik.de/

 

[dwh]

160w of solar is not much. Not really important if you drive enough to keep the battery bank charged, but if spending a lot of time parked, then the generator will probably be needed...often with electric cooktop.

For LED lighting, make sure that they have a -regulated- power supply. LEDs are sensitive to over-voltage.

I am going to order some of these this week to try in my camper:

http://www.oznium.com/led-modules/

I sent email to Oznium to ask about over voltage - the LEDs are rated for 12v and automotive systems are commonly up around 13v-13.5v and can be as high as 14.4v-14.8v when charging. They replied that the lights will work fine at the higher voltages, but will have shorter life.

So, I will be using a voltage regulator in the power line to the LEDs. I will be using this voltage regulator setup:

http://www.modmyrv.com/2009/05/10/mod-81-12-volt-fluorescent-lighting-on-the-cheap

I already have a handful of LM7812 voltage regulator ICs so it's cheap and easy insurance for long LED life.

 

[Jago]

Expect the unexpected I guess?

Hi Intinerrant

Sorry to hear of your delays - it's annoying when you have to work around school times for your holidays. But your revised schedule and workarounds sound sensible - concentrate on the basics and add the frills and extra stuff later - I like it.:sombrero:

1) -A good idea to add to the spec later - you can then use the truck and work out what you really need and add it as you go rather than estimating as we are doing now before using.

2) -Seitz windows still have a good reputation and are used in most campervans I think.

3) -I think a pully system is a much better idea than an electric system, maybe not as cool or quite so convenient but much more robust and easier to fix if required.

4) -Pulsed air is much cheaper than a wet system like radiators or under floor. Also it gives more immediately controllable heat so has some advantages. I guess it can be a little hard to control or fine tune overnight though? Sometimes air can give a drier heat that's not so comfortable?

5) -We are going for a macerator too - maybe an added complication over a cassette toilet but with a family of 5 you'll need the tank capacity to avoid changing cassettes every other day!

6) -I have thought of combining grey water and black water into one too - maybe necessary if there's not enough chassis space for everything.

7) -Roller shutter will be save access space where a doorway would be required I guess.

8) -We also decided against gas - opting for a sealed diesel unit, with a portable induction for back up/capacity when required. But we are now unsure, as there isn't good feedback on the diesel units and the electric ones do require a large induction/battery drain or generator running. Gas is coming back in fashion (if it was ever out!) as some people are speccing gas just for cooking, with two gas bottles providing enough for months of cooking. But I think like you, I still like the idea of no gas and therefore just having everything running off diesel or electricity to keep it simple.

I can't help too much on prices as I am just at this stage now as well bit will let you know as I find anything out. Our Tatra chassis is now being prepared in the Czech Republic at IPEX and we will start the cabin build when we bring the truck back at the start of March. We also hope to have it finished in June in time for the school holidays!

I'll let you know when we firm up dates and PM you to see if we can drop in maybe around the 10th/11th of March? :smiley_drive:

Good luck and keep us posted!

Cheers
Jago

 

[Itinerrant]

News

Hello everybody, :wavey:

Time for a little update. Friday was a big day. I drove the truck all the way to the builder's workshop, ca. 300 km from our home. All went well, the truck is running really smooth.

We discussed the last details and then I left the truck there, where it will stand for the next 6 months until the box is achieved. Felt a little strange not seeing the truck near our house anymore, but we're so impatient to have it done ! I plan to pay the truck a visit each 3 weeks / 1 month, take some pictures and of course post some here !

In the meantime, here is one of the last we took before the build starts up :



@dwh : we are going for 160W for now, but it won't be difficult to upgrade thereafter ; a generator is also already planned.

@Jago : about gas vs. electricity for cooking, I had a hard time convincing the builder that I didn't want gas. Diesel was never an option as it got terrible reviews from long time travellers and it does not stand altitude. Gas is quite nice as with one fill of 23 liters, we can get almost a year of cooking. But I kept on the electricity idea, we'll see how it turns out on the field... How is it going with your Tatra ? Feel free to drop a PM when you know when you get by (although in March we might be skiing in France).

@alll : thanks again for all the support and thoughts sharing during the design process, now it's time to see all this happening for real !

 

[Ford Prefect]

Nice, one step closer!

SO I have to ask...

First, are you going to streach the frame at all, or just keep it the way it is? (I do not recall if you mentioned that, sorry)

Second are you going to keep the yellow lights and the reflective stickers? I have heard that some people like to keep their trucks looking like a work truck, as it is abit of camoflage. Though I am not sure how I feel about the idea myself, as it would seem like the companies might be an easier target to rip off, as the theif might think that they are not hurting any person, just a company.

 

[LukeH]

Félicitations pour tes avancées.

I’m severely frustrated to see everyone’s build progressing nicely while mine goes nowhere (work, wife & kids).

Still, my work avoidance techniques (big company, big office) have culminated in two innovative solutions; one for space and one for torsion free mounting. I won’t say any more until I’ve been able to put it into practice as I don’t want to lead anyone down a dangerous path before I’ve tried it myself.



My truck came with yellow flashing lights too; I’m keeping them until I get told off for it. If you ever have to circulate in a dock yard (RORO for international travel for instance) they’re mandatory if you don’t want to pay the price of an escort.

The stealth aspect is two fold; a works truck parked up somewhere is often left alone by the authorities (although my raised roof might be a giveaway).

A site vehicle with yellow lights on the top (even when they aren’t flashing) is generally allowed to ignore weight restrictions; on the grounds they’re going to work somewhere within the weight restricted zone. OK it doesn’t allow you to risk crossing a restricted bridge (that would be a bad idea) but bearing in mind that our tyres generally allow us to tread lighter for a given truck weight, we can get (mostly) away with driving on roads and tracks that weren’t built for us.



Theft: I don’t think it’s possible to generalise. Someone who’s after site tools is going to spot it’s a camper and leave it, someone who’s after personal effects might think it’s a works truck and leave it. But the inverse is equally possible. There are so many factors that tempt or dissuade a thief it’s virtually impossible to cover all the possibilities.

We were robbed in France and in Ghana; the first was a screwdriver in the front door lock in a supermarket parking lot, the second was through a Seitz awning window (they made a mess of the reflective blind too).

Security wise I remain undecided about the windows. Seitz is easy, cheapish and light, KTC is expensive, heavy and difficult, but indestructible.

I really want to put external shutters on but other than passing a piece of string through the wall (leaky) I can’t get my head around operating them from the inside (yet). Portakabin roller shutters are quite compact; to be investigated.
Shutters would bring stealth, security, scratch and thermal advantages; one day I’ll get there.

 

[Jago]

Hi Itinerrant

Glad to hear your trucks off for the build stage - how exciting! :luxhello:

It looks really sorted now so can't wait to see it when done!

Our Tatra is being refurbed in Czech now and should be ready to collect on the w/c 7th of March to bring back to the UK for our cabin build.

We went for a different configuration in the end - instead of a Doka/crew cab which are huge on the Tatras (@ 3m I think they are bigger than the MAN crew cabs?) we have gone for an extended/sleeper cab, to fit the kids seats behind in the second row. So as well as changing the cab they are refurbing and servicing as necessary and lengthening the chassis to 4.5m.

If we can bring it back and start the build in March I think we should have it ready for June!

I am leaning towards electric for cooking now as well - have you seen this build

(It may have been you who showed me! ;0)
They use only electricity and had no problems - as long as you get your electrical requirements properly specced for the size of your batteries, inverters and generators etc beforehand I think this is a safe option.

I'll PM you when our pick dates are firm - good luck with the build in the meantime!

@Lukeh - I think we will be shipping our truck by itself (as opposed to going with it) so I have considered window shutters as well. I wonder if you could use some lightweight shop blinds or domestic external shutters? I'd want them flush mounted (as external ones wouldn't look as nice and could be ripped off by trees/narrow overhangs etc). But I presume roller blinds wouldd be complicated to flush mount, take up internal space and be costly and trickier to build your cabin if you were to do them per window. Doing them for a larger area (several windows or a whole side) might be easier but this would be big and heavy with the weight high up etc.

After considering the complication and expense I think the extra cost of KCT windows will be worth the expense (especially the metal security panels that can be fitted for shipping etc).

Any more thought or alternatives here?:lurk:

Cheers
Jago