New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[soflorovers]

I'm looking forward to when these get out in the hands of the new owners - I suspect that there will be a lot of very quiet "never minds" once we get our hands on them.
Its amazing how the once reviled LR3 and LR4 have become so revered now that the Discovery 5 is their replacement. Drive a Discovery 5 on a 3000 mile trip and see if you still think they are so horrible.
I've driven my D5 off road and found it to be extremely competent on the same trails I've driven with my Defender 90, Range Rover Classics and LR3. The biggest drawback is that its sort of a fat pig - a few inches wider than it needs to be.
Since the new Defender is narrower and has shorter overhangs I suspect that I'll be pretty happy with it. I know I won't miss the rear lift gate, the rotary shift knob and the piano black trim on the interior of the D5.
I won't expect to drive it down some of the trails I'll happily tackle with my Series IIA's or my Defender but then I really don't want to drive a Series IIA on a 3000 mile trip either.

To me it will be a safe, comfortable, capable Land Rover that will get me where I want to go and looks pretty cool, especially with all of the off road gear I've ordered mine with.

Well put.

Also, "I won't expect to drive it down some of the trails I'll happily tackle with my Series IIA's or my Defender". That's a very fair statement considering they're going to be 60k+, and that's a massive chunk of change. However, I fully expect the New Defender to be able to tackle that same trail if we're talking about pure capability. The beauty of my LR3 is that it's already beat up, so I put it places that I wouldn't dare put a new L405/L494 RR.

 

[nickw]

F

I'll play devil's advocate here... old Defenders aren't exactly what I'd call reliable or durable. Sure, durable can be argued in the sense that they're incredibly modular and it's easy to keep them going without specialized electronic tools to communicate with the various ECUs (Which btw... a GAAP tool is like $600. Stop crying about electronics. Be grateful that we're not dealing with OBD1 here). In the real world however, where they see real duty, most Defenders have been replaced. I have family in Spain that used to use chopped top D110s to transport crew and equipment into mines. They've all been replaced with Land Cruisers. I've been told that maintenance costs aren't even close; more importantly, the down-time is significantly less too. As they say, "Don't get it twisted"... I love the old Defender, but let's not get all teary-eyed and say it was something that it was not.

As for the LR platforms that have been out for 10+ years, they may not be as easy to work on when compared to the old solid axle trucks, but does that really matter if the newer stuff already has a lot more mileage than the older trucks? I think the true testament to the LR3/4/RRS is just how many of them already exist with over 200k miles. What good is this "durability" if a D2 can't go past 100k without blowing up its motor/trans in spectacular fashion? I'm seeing LR3s getting close to that 300k mark. Maybe I'm not the rugged Outback outdoorsman that everyone on here claims to be, but when you get to that sort of mileage, then who cares? I'd rather get to 300k and struggle a bit to replace an air compressor, CVs, etc... than have solid axles but powertrains made out of glass, or ancillaries that originated during the British Leyland years.

It's a good point, I've never thought they were particularly well built from what I've seen and to your point, they offer the same thing many old rigs did, repairability not to mention a long tenure of parts commonality.

I think folks always confuse repairability and reliability, true functional reliability defined like the airline industry as MTBO or MTBF is probably 10:1 in favor of any newer rig....

 

[nickw]

I'm looking forward to when these get out in the hands of the new owners - I suspect that there will be a lot of very quiet "never minds" once we get our hands on them.
Its amazing how the once reviled LR3 and LR4 have become so revered now that the Discovery 5 is their replacement. Drive a Discovery 5 on a 3000 mile trip and see if you still think they are so horrible.
I've driven my D5 off road and found it to be extremely competent on the same trails I've driven with my Defender 90, Range Rover Classics and LR3. The biggest drawback is that its sort of a fat pig - a few inches wider than it needs to be.
Since the new Defender is narrower and has shorter overhangs I suspect that I'll be pretty happy with it. I know I won't miss the rear lift gate, the rotary shift knob and the piano black trim on the interior of the D5.
I won't expect to drive it down some of the trails I'll happily tackle with my Series IIA's or my Defender but then I really don't want to drive a Series IIA on a 3000 mile trip either.

To me it will be a safe, comfortable, capable Land Rover that will get me where I want to go and looks pretty cool, especially with all of the off road gear I've ordered mine with.

True and unlike some of the other sim LR platforms, guys like you are going to mod them not long after getting them so hopefully we will some some fun builds and good capability tests quickly whereas the some of the other models take a few years to settle in.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Boring and unreliable? Where does this come from? I've seen waaaaay more LR3/4 cross the 200k mile barrier than I've seen D1, D2, RRC, P38, etc... As someone who's owned multiple D2s and LR3s, they're nowhere close to each other. You can comfortably daily drive an LR3 with 150k without fear of it leaving you completely stranded. Both of my D2's have left me stranded, and they're both still the only cars to leave me properly on *******ed Island waiting for a tow.

Yes, classics were unreliable. See the difference yet?

 

[EricTyrrell]

The same thing that makes the new 992 a "911". Why aren't you complaining that the 2020 911 isn't close enough to the 930 from the 80's. Ignore the fact that the 911 has since doubled it's gear count from 4 to 8, become water cooled, added over 1000 lbs, added rear steer, etc...

Perfect comparison, but how does this help support your point? 992 is far more similar and respectful 930 successor than the fashion Defender will ever be to the original.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: The OG Defender is from the 1980's; 40's if you're one of those people that thinks the Series trucks are "Defenders". Were you really expecting anything different in the year 2020? Every single vehicle that has been around since the OG Defender has evolved massively since they were introduced. You shouldn't be mad that LR gave us the 2020 Defender that they did. You should be mad that it took them so long to give it to us.

Let's get this straight. They took too long, unleashed the shittastic DC100, apologized for their stupidity, took longer, and then released the same thing. It's a total joke.

Compare apples to apples. If the current Wrangler had come out immediately after the YJ in the mid 90's, people would be RIOTING and saying: 1) It's become massive; 2) It's become too much of a Grand Cherokee; 3) Why does it have AC and a radio; 4) What's with all these electronics?; 5) 8 speeds? What is this, a bike?; 6) 4 doors? A Jeep needs to be 2-door!

Again, great comparison. Despite the overplayed differences you highlight, a 2 Door JL is very similar to the YJ. It's why the JL is commonly used as an example of graceful and honest product evolution despite difficult regulations.

 

[REDROVER]

maybe you are right, only time will tell.
I hope to see it as reliable as the lr4

 

[JackW]

True and unlike some of the other sim LR platforms, guys like you are going to mod them not long after getting them so hopefully we will some some fun builds and good capability tests quickly whereas the some of the other models take a few years to settle in.

Yes, I can't wait to see what the aftermarket will come up with for the new Defender - first thing I'll be looking for is a good set of rocksliders (learned that lesson on my Hunter Edition Range Rover) and will be waiting to see what ARB comes up with for a front bumper. I also will want some serious underbody protection and see what options there will be for a dual battery system with Redarc isolators. I've ordered mine with 18" wheels and the Duratrac tires so it should be ready to hit some trails right away.

 

[DieselRanger]

It's the "take" of a megalomaniac art collector who hates offroading. LC was split early on into three lines: heavy duty, light duty, and wagon. 50 series was the first in the new wagon line. Few people would care to debate it wearing the LC name, since the original (heavy duty) line continued production, evolving into the 70-series.

Gwagen and Wrangler bear striking resemblance in form and function to the originals. Why change the names?

Wrangler is more capable too and far more similar in body style, but that doesn't make it a Defender.

The designer designed something that looks different than its predecessor.

The engineers engineered something that clearly works better than its predecessor.

Porsche did the same thing with the 911 in 1988 and the purists hated it, but Porsche still builds the best and best selling sports cars in the world. One can google the design evolution of the model - it's far bigger, far heavier, far more powerful, far more capable than the original, which was designed as a tosaable sports coupe much like a Fiat or MG or a modern Miata, whereas today it's a GT and goes for over $100K after tax and title in stripper configuration. The only difference in heritage between the 911 and the Defender is the Defender never changed, and then changed a lot, whereas the 911 changed a little at a time and only once in a major fashion. Punctuated equilibrium vs fits-and-starts evolution.

I think the New Defender will do very well, sales wise.

 

[DieselRanger]

Yes, I can't wait to see what the aftermarket will come up with for the new Defender - first thing I'll be looking for is a good set of rocksliders (learned that lesson on my Hunter Edition Range Rover) and will be waiting to see what ARB comes up with for a front bumper. I also will want some serious underbody protection and see what options there will be for a dual battery system with Redarc isolators. I've ordered mine with 18" wheels and the Duratrac tires so it should be ready to hit some trails right away.

Lucky8 will reportedly offer rock sliders at launch. They've already confirmed they are working on them but will probably need some early adopters to validate fitment.

 

[Christian P.]

wow I am really impressed. 102 pages and no sign of slowing down!!!

This is the most beaten dead horse in the history of the Internet. There should be an award for that.

 

[DieselRanger]

Yes, preferably there is some similarity. Otherwise, it's a free for all. Models become meaningless. Call anything whatever you want. Welcome to the Pathfinder world.

So Corvette is...?

 

[DieselRanger]

The same thing that makes the new 992 a "911". Why aren't you complaining that the 2020 911 isn't close enough to the 930 from the 80's. Ignore the fact that the 911 has since doubled it's gear count from 4 to 8, become water cooled, added over 1000 lbs, added rear steer, etc...

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: The OG Defender is from the 1980's; 40's if you're one of those people that thinks the Series trucks are "Defenders". Were you really expecting anything different in the year 2020? Every single vehicle that has been around since the OG Defender has evolved massively since they were introduced. You shouldn't be mad that LR gave us the 2020 Defender that they did. You should be mad that it took them so long to give it to us. Compare apples to apples. If the current Wrangler had come out immediately after the YJ in the mid 90's, people would be RIOTING and saying: 1) It's become massive; 2) It's become too much of a Grand Cherokee; 3) Why does it have AC and a radio; 4) What's with all these electronics?; 5) 8 speeds? What is this, a bike?; 6) 4 doors? A Jeep needs to be 2-door!

SO much this. Preach it brother.

 

[DieselRanger]

Perfect comparison, but how does this help support your point? 992 is far more similar and respectful 930 successor than the fashion Defender will ever be to the original.

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Carson G]

What is your point?

If you are looking for whats trendy and solely resale value based, CL can be a good resource....absolutely does not = relevance to this discussion. The RR Classics were cheap a few years back...good luck now. Same for the 80 series, they were affordable for several years in the early 2000's.....I looked at several in 05ish, mid 100k miles, F/R lockers, great shape, easy sub $6-8k that you couldn't touch for $15k now.

Exactly. I did some looking and the Lexus GX470’s and LR3’s have had about the same percentage of depreciation over the years. Now I’m not a Toyota guy but I’m pretty certain 470’s are reliable. But then again both my LR3 and and my parents LR4 have been great reliability wise.

This thread is honestly hilarious. Both sides of this argument are nothing but assumptions and opinions. Since this is nothing but feelings and opinions I might as well post my thoughts.

Looks wise for me are a toss up I like it better than the D5 and DC100 but IMO it’s not anywhere near as good looking as the LR3/4 and earlier but it’ll probably eventually grow on me. My issue is with the front end I wish it had the full circle headlights and it needs to be more squared off IMO. But I understand regulations won’t allow it to be more squared off. Still overall not a bad looking vehicle really just wish it was more squared off.

Honestly I don’t mind that much that it’s unibody as it’s decently sturdy and it has benefits of being lighter, safer, and rust proof.

Suspension is a toss up for me as well. The simplicity and articulation of solid axles and coil springs would be nice but that comes with a lot of downsides. Like ride quality, handling, and load carrying while maintaining flex. This is the problem Jeep has with the Wrangler. If the suspension is better than the LR3/4 then it will be amazing both on and off road. Which it should be with the beefy bushings and two stage air springs and 2” shocks. Will it be better than the old Defender? Out of the box for sure. But modified it stands no chance. Reliability for air suspension is a non issue if you maintain your stuff and there are work arounds and field fixes if SHTF.

Electronics are a non issue IMO never had a electrical issue on any of my Land Rovers ever, my parents might of had a couple on their old D2’s but they mainly had mechanical issues, but no electrical ones since LR3/4 even after deep water crossings and a ton of deep mud, sand, and salt air throughout their whole existence. With the sealed electronics on the new Defender it should be even better.

The interior IMO is perfect honestly my favorite part of the whole vehicle.

Reliability is a unknown but IMO if it’s as good as the LR3/4 it’ll be a solid vehicle.

Price is IMO perfect.

In summary I think it’s a decent successor to the OG Defender not perfect but a decent one. I would’ve loved to have seen it go the new gwagon route looks, chassis ,and suspension wise but I’m glad the Defender doesn’t have the gwagon price tag. One day I’ll have a classic Defender and a new one in my garage.

 

[DorB]

Still my all-time favorite LR ad. At least three of my friends saw this ad, thought of me, cut it out of the magazine and gave it to me. Take about being stereotyped.

That’s for kids who dream to be a mechanic?