New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[Corgi_express]

As bad as Jeeps rating may be they are still better than Land Rovers!

Your baseball team sucks! They lost every game last year. My team is way better, we won one game and almost tied another!

Glass houses, buddy.

 

[TexasTJ]

As bad as Jeeps rating may be they are still better than Land Rovers!

And when it does break at least it's not wildly expensive and you'll also be able to actually find a dealer outside of major metropolitan areas.

There is some truth to that statement. I lost a hub on my LR3 in the Irish Canyon on the way Jackson one time and it took 4 days in Rock Springs to get it fixed. I should have has an extra hub with us but the the one that broke was less than a year old Timken Part. This is a consideration getting off alone in the back country. I'm always a little hesitant about getting off the pavement in my LR3. I never thought about it in my jeeps or my Series one Discovery's. It Looks like Land Rover has put sometime into over building a lot of the components that might fail on the New Defender. Will it be as easy to field fix as a Jeep or the old Defender. No, but I bet they have made sure that you can still do some field work easily on them. It's a toss up, drive what you like.

 

[soflorovers]

Appears LR's Rob Atkins - chief engineer, vehicle engineering captured the love/hate relationship with LR, that LR does live in a cave:

“.........Many of the biggest Defender decisions aren’t obvious, says Atkins, .......... he’s proud of two particular decisions: the use of bigger tyres to raise the Defender’s driving position and improve its off-road traction; and some special packaging measures needed to make the Defender’s boot space as wide and uncluttered as it is, in comparison with more conventional SUVs.

The decision about the big wheels came early, says Atkins: “Even before we had a fully engineered mule, we did some testing after we fitted bigger tyres to a Range Rover Sport and it was very promising. Then we went to Dubai, where sand driving is the national sport, and were simply blown away by the performance of our Defender mule, even when we were using road tyre pressures. We knew the design was strong, but big wheels gave the vehicle extra height and presence, and a lot more grip. That was a very important moment.”......... "

Bigger wheels/tires was an important moment? In 2019? From the "chief engineer"? Tires/wheels have been a item of discussion for decades and is one of the top, if not top, initial modifications. Is that how they engineered the LR3/4 removable hitch that falls out, with trailer attached? Or created one of the best tow vehicles but forgot about extension mirrors? Maybe its the remote-control self-folding D5 seats that require the seats to be clear of anything and still don't lay flat. Things that just make you scratch your head and ask ****** were you thinking LR?

I love how those are the things that make you say ******. Can we just address the fact that LR felt it was acceptable to use a motor designed in the 60's until the early 2000's, all while completely failing to understand the limitations of that platform. The Rover V8 went from a 3.5 to a 4.6 and became gradually less reliable with each iteration and with time (later 4.6's are said to be less reliable than the 4.0 because the castings wore out). I mean honestly, I know we love them, but the Rover V8 is one of the worst things ever built. They then went and stuffed it into cars like the D2 and P38 which had their own separate catastrophic issues.

All you ever wanted to know about . . Land Rover V8 Engine Failures

Thoughts and advice on caring for Rolls-Royce, Land Rover, and other fine European automobiles from John Elder Robison, owner of JE Robison Service.

robisonservice.blogspot.com

 

[soflorovers]

As bad as Jeeps rating may be they are still better than Land Rovers!

And when it does break at least it's not wildly expensive and you'll also be able to actually find a dealer outside of major metropolitan areas.

Can't argue with any of what you've said here. This is honestly the main reason I always steer people towards Porsche instead of other random high-end manufactures like Aston if you're serious about DD'ing the car. My GF has a 991.2 Turbo S and she drives it across the country (pre-RONA) and has accumulated 27k miles on it so far. It does everything she needs, and there's a Porsche dealer in every state...wish I could say the same for Ferrari, Mclaren, Aston, etc...

 

[mpinco]

7% is quite a normal European ratio; they tend not to run the long drawbars/a-frames that Aussie and USA/NA market trailers do, which leads to the heavier noseweight.

May be normal for Europe but for a "world vehicle" it is on the very low end. Most travel trailers require a tongue rate rating of at least 400-600 lbs. My point was that LR should have equip their vehicles with receiver hitch systems that EXCEED the max tow rating of the vehicle at 10-12%, not come in under the tow rating. Is this where form over function was chosen? I'm referring to rear bumper "appearance" that eliminates a full frame receiver hitch.

As for the new Luxury Defender, what is the tongue weight spec? From LR brochure:



Am I reading this right? That the D110 max tongue weight is 330 lbs? Hope that is a typo.

 

[JeepColorado]

Oh yeah, I mean I have thought about getting a Gladiator a lot. Still might. The fact that resale value remains high is evidence of how much people love them, despite their warts.

But they ain't exactly known for being reliable. I just find it funny how the first thing everyone brings up for Land Rover is reliability, but they are willing to give Jeep a pass for their history of serious issues... because they are Jeep.

This very idea has come up for me and my wife twice- recently when I was trying to decide whether to get a Jl Rubicon and 7 years ago when the new Jeep Grand Cherokee (WK2) had just come out we were deciding between it and an LR4. I went into it thinking I'd get the LR4 and I was certain that's what my wife would want given the luxury of it. I honestly looked at the reliability of both as somewhat equivalent in terms of likelihood that they would break.

I saw 2 main differences-

1) The breaks on the Jeep were much less expensive and easier to deal with, such as dealer locations, then the LR4- that mattered, but ultimately wasn't the deciding factor- what was? Cost - how that relates is that I'm not giving Jeep a "pass" for reliability, it's just a lot more tolerable when I'm spending considerably less money and any issue that come up they will be easier to fix.

2) The Grand Cherokee with every option you could possibly get was almost $20K less than a similarly equipped LR4. And we just really didn't see where the extra money went other than the name. It didn't ride $20K better, Jeep had just come out with their highly-regarded 8.2" inch touch screen with UConnect system so the LR4 screen was much smaller and less user friendly which mattered to Mrs. JeepColorado and the Grand Cherokee had a Hemi V8 which made it a hoot to drive.

This to me is one of the key problems with the Defender- the costs. Listening to some of the Overland Journal podcasts lately it's a concept that repeatedly comes up. That extra costs is money you are NOT spending traveling. A top of the line Rubicon can be had all day for $50- leather, heated seats, power locks/windows, cool radio package etc... You could put $10-15 into it with uber high-quality components- RhinoRack, ARB Bumper & Drawer system & lights, Warn winch etc.... and still be less than $70. That's the entry price on most any Defender unless you go with the no-options version.

We take the money saved and do stuff with it- if I didn't want the add-ons to the Jeep (Part of the fun for me is the ability to customize it) we could do even bigger adventures with it- either way I still come out ahead monetarily. The only other difference I've really seen that I'll tip my hat to the LR products on is the ride quality. They definitely ride better than a Jeep, but the JL platform is remarkably better than previous Jeeps- Having driven a brand-new D5 and a 2020 Rubi back to back on the same day over the same roads I can tell you that the Jeep is 90% as good as the D5 and throw shocks on it and it gets even better.

If you doubt my numbers on building the Jeep for about $60-65 ready to go anywhere quite comfortably-

 

[JeepColorado]

Can't argue with any of what you've said here. This is honestly the main reason I always steer people towards Porsche instead of other random high-end manufactures like Aston if you're serious about DD'ing the car. My GF has a 991.2 Turbo S and she drives it across the country (pre-RONA) and has accumulated 27k miles on it so far. It does everything she needs, and there's a Porsche dealer in every state...wish I could say the same for Ferrari, Mclaren, Aston, etc...

A guy I work with gave up on his Lambo for just that reason- anytime he needed maintenance he had to have it flat-bed towed to a dealer hours away for $2,000- just for the tow. It sounded good and was a mean looking car, but man that's high maintenance for a daily driver.

 

[Carson G]

May be normal for Europe but for a "world vehicle" it is on the very low end. Most travel trailers require a tongue rate rating of at least 400-600 lbs. My point was that LR should have equip their vehicles with receiver hitch systems that EXCEED the max tow rating of the vehicle at 10-12%, not come in under the tow rating. Is this where form over function was chosen? I'm referring to rear bumper "appearance" that eliminates a full frame receiver hitch.

As for the new Luxury Defender, what is the tongue weight spec? From LR brochure:

View attachment 587185

Am I reading this right? That the D110 max tongue weight is 330 lbs? Hope that is a typo.

Car and Driver has it listed as 820lbs for tongue weight.

 

[Carson G]

May be normal for Europe but for a "world vehicle" it is on the very low end. Most travel trailers require a tongue rate rating of at least 400-600 lbs. My point was that LR should have equip their vehicles with receiver hitch systems that EXCEED the max tow rating of the vehicle at 10-12%, not come in under the tow rating. Is this where form over function was chosen? I'm referring to rear bumper "appearance" that eliminates a full frame receiver hitch.

As for the new Luxury Defender, what is the tongue weight spec? From LR brochure:

View attachment 587185

Am I reading this right? That the D110 max tongue weight is 330 lbs? Hope that is a typo.

Here’s some more info.

https://www.ownerinfo.landrover.com/document/3E/2020/T22693/38261_en_GBR/proc/G2389436

Land Rover also says not to go over 10% tongue weight in Australia.

 

[calicamper]

None of your weight ratings are worth the paper they are printed on till we get a US certified one on this continent.

They rate a Toyota Camry at 3500lbs towing capacity over in Australia too. LOL

 

[mpinco]

Car and Driver has it listed as 820lbs for tongue weight.

Looks like it is 770 lbs. - https://www.landrover.co.uk/towing.html

On the light side but at least not 330 lbs.

 

[mpinco]

None of your weight ratings are worth the paper they are printed on till we get a US certified one on this continent.

They rate a Toyota Camry at 3500lbs towing capacity over in Australia too. LOL

True but the factory receiver hitch for the LR3/4 was a joke at 550 lb tongue weight (I went Rhino class IV on my LR4).

Appears the Defender is better but less than a LC. The Defender powertrain choices are still a problem.

 

[nickw]

70׳ series Toyota is an SUV?
You got it all wrong.

You competed the transition of the landcruiser to the current shift in the defender, and it’s not comparable because Toyota did not quit the work truck line (70’ series).
It would have, If LR continued the evolution of the basic Defender in parallel to the SUV line, as Toyota did.

SUV is a term, like truck, pickup, ute...pick your poison, it has no official 'definition' per-se.

So you are in the LC200 is not a 'real' LandCruiser camp? By that logic neither is the FJ55 or FJ60....which are mechanically very sim to the 70's....

The Defender bridged the gap between the 70 series and the Wagons like the 6X-8X-10X-200....it was used as a stand in for both types of vehicles....now it more closely aligns to the Wagon series, like the 200....doesn't mean it's not a 'Defender' just like the 200 series is still a 'Landcruiser' even if they dropped the 70 series.

 

[nickw]

This very idea has come up for me and my wife twice- recently when I was trying to decide whether to get a Jl Rubicon and 7 years ago when the new Jeep Grand Cherokee (WK2) had just come out we were deciding between it and an LR4. I went into it thinking I'd get the LR4 and I was certain that's what my wife would want given the luxury of it. I honestly looked at the reliability of both as somewhat equivalent in terms of likelihood that they would break.

I saw 2 main differences-

1) The breaks on the Jeep were much less expensive and easier to deal with, such as dealer locations, then the LR4- that mattered, but ultimately wasn't the deciding factor- what was? Cost - how that relates is that I'm not giving Jeep a "pass" for reliability, it's just a lot more tolerable when I'm spending considerably less money and any issue that come up they will be easier to fix.

2) The Grand Cherokee with every option you could possibly get was almost $20K less than a similarly equipped LR4. And we just really didn't see where the extra money went other than the name. It didn't ride $20K better, Jeep had just come out with their highly-regarded 8.2" inch touch screen with UConnect system so the LR4 screen was much smaller and less user friendly which mattered to Mrs. JeepColorado and the Grand Cherokee had a Hemi V8 which made it a hoot to drive.

This to me is one of the key problems with the Defender- the costs. Listening to some of the Overland Journal podcasts lately it's a concept that repeatedly comes up. That extra costs is money you are NOT spending traveling. A top of the line Rubicon can be had all day for $50- leather, heated seats, power locks/windows, cool radio package etc... You could put $10-15 into it with uber high-quality components- RhinoRack, ARB Bumper & Drawer system & lights, Warn winch etc.... and still be less than $70. That's the entry price on most any Defender unless you go with the no-options version.

We take the money saved and do stuff with it- if I didn't want the add-ons to the Jeep (Part of the fun for me is the ability to customize it) we could do even bigger adventures with it- either way I still come out ahead monetarily. The only other difference I've really seen that I'll tip my hat to the LR products on is the ride quality. They definitely ride better than a Jeep, but the JL platform is remarkably better than previous Jeeps- Having driven a brand-new D5 and a 2020 Rubi back to back on the same day over the same roads I can tell you that the Jeep is 90% as good as the D5 and throw shocks on it and it gets even better.

If you doubt my numbers on building the Jeep for about $60-65 ready to go anywhere quite comfortably-

It's all relative - your $ numbers are limited by your financial limitations / situation, just as a 20 yo would look at your $60-70k jeep and laugh and try to convince you a base Ranger 4x4 is the right answer since it can do 95% of what your jeep can do for $35k with a backpack, some rubbermaid containers and the stock bumper with a cheap winch. There is always something cheaper, faster, better, etc. You came up with what worked for you....it's not the right answer for everybody.

Check your numbers again, you can build a nicely equipped Defender for well nder $70k. I bet it's $5-10k, at most, more than a comparable Jeep....I built one how I'd build it with the 4-cyl...which compares favorably to the Jeeps 6 and the adventure pack, offroad pack, cold weather pack, towing pack, heated seats, wheel arch protection, 18" steel wheels and even threw in a snorkel....MSRP is $59k, but does include some thing the Jeep doesn't have, so not 100% comparable, not what you'll actually pay either...

Edit; I just built a Jeep Rubicon that I thought was comparable...I did add leather seats, headliner, auto trans, safety and it pencils out to $59.

What was the MSRP on yours before discounts? That's what we should be comparing to the current Defender...

 

[calicamper]

It's all relative - your $ numbers are limited by your financial limitations / situation, just as a 20 yo would look at your $60-70k jeep and laugh and try to convince you a base Ranger 4x4 is the right answer since it can do 95% of what your jeep can do for $35k with a backpack, some rubbermaid containers and the stock bumper with a cheap winch. There is always something cheaper, faster, better, etc. You came up with what worked for you....it's not the right answer for everybody.

Check your numbers again, you can build a nicely equipped Defender for well nder $70k. I bet it's $5-10k, at most, more than a comparable Jeep....I built one how I'd build it with the 4-cyl...which compares favorably to the Jeeps 6 and the adventure pack, offroad pack, cold weather pack, towing pack, heated seats, wheel arch protection, 18" steel wheels and even threw in a snorkel....MSRP is $59k, but does include some thing the Jeep doesn't have, so not 100% comparable.

Its still a LR that will need dealer computer access unless they sell an Iphone app that lets you reset, isolate or disable failed systems until you finish your Moab trip and return to Salt Lake, Austin, NewYork, San Francisco etc. because those are the only locations that will have dealers with LR service capability.